Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 16154 times)

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #696 on: July 18, 2014, 01:47:34 PM »
You need God to guide you with your everyday life decision. You need God as an example in your life, as a goal, as a purpose to your existence. You need God as an infinite source. You need God for things I can't even start to comprehend.
We need God for many many reasons.

I haven't used god as a guide, ever. Especially since I went to the dark side when I was 10. And I am now a lot older than that. What sort of terrible, awful things have happened to me since 1961? I survived high school, the military (volunteered for Vietnam and got sent to England for three years), college, a few relationships and the business world. My children grew up healthy, I'm still healthy enough to carry heavy stuff and climb ladders and run. I'm trying to figure out how having god in my life would have improved things (besides being right about everything until proven wrong, which would have been wonderfully convent at times).

Luk, I don't need god for any reason. I don't need yours, I don't need skep's, I don't need jst's, I don't need Billy Grahams, I don't need Pat Robertson's, I don't need any of them. I've outlived so many religious people I've known that I can't imagine how I would have done better as a believer. Plus, my Sunday's have always been free.

You'll need to do more than make blanket statements like that to convince me that you're right.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #697 on: July 18, 2014, 02:01:53 PM »
^^^C'mon, don't you have that Jesus-shaped hole in your heart? If you do, see a cardiologist immediately..... ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #698 on: July 18, 2014, 02:38:59 PM »
^^^C'mon, don't you have that Jesus-shaped hole in your heart? If you do, see a cardiologist immediately..... ;D

I've got one shaped like the virgin mary in my liver. I always thought that was enough!
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #699 on: July 18, 2014, 02:44:22 PM »
You need God to guide you with your everyday life decision. You need God as an example in your life, as a goal, as a purpose to your existence. You need God as an infinite source. You need God for things I can't even start to comprehend.  We need God for many many reasons.

 :o  Wow.  That's a lot of unsupported assertions in one paragraph.

I already have several wonderful role models and don't need the god of the Bible as an example.  I believe that purpose cannot be imposed from an external agent, and has to be internally created.  And what do I need with an "infinite source" when I'm doing finite things?  Does.  Not.  Compute.

Finally, although I can quite happily do without the "guidance" of an entity that I don't even believe exists, this has serious ramifications for human free will.  If we are not making our own decisions, who's really running the show?  It's like being in a cosmic Intensive Care Unit hooked up to a godomometer, but when we flatline only some of us get "revived" in heaven and the rest of us get chucked into the hospital incinerator, depending on which group we were randomly assigned to by Biblegod.

If Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they did it because of Luk's god, who gave them the power to do it.  If we disbelieve, it's because Luk's god nudged us in that direction.

Let's face it:  This kind of theology is divine determinism with "Calvinism" scratched out and "Catholicism" written in in crayon.

^^^C'mon, don't you have that Jesus-shaped hole in your heart? If you do, see a cardiologist immediately..... ;D

(Springy G searches Her prodigious memory, trying to remember if She's ever typed a medical term even remotely close to "Jesus-shaped hole")  Nope; I've got nuthin'.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #700 on: July 18, 2014, 04:20:19 PM »
I do not equate ignorance with being right. I say that people are right until proven wrong.
This is equating ignorance with being right.  By saying that people are right until proven wrong, you are giving anyone and everyone carte blanche to make whatever wild claims they want which can't currently be disproved, and thus equating your ignorance with them being right.

Quote from: Lukvance
I also say that some people will never be proven wrong.
And this is why your position is so ineffective.  A belief that cannot be proven wrong cannot make meaningful predictions about anything, and therefore is useless for accomplishing anything.  This is why falsification is so important for science.

Quote from: Lukvance
You are the one interpreting it the other way around.
You sure seem fond of trying to turn arguments around on the other person.  Has it occurred to you that this is probably the least effective and most pointless method of arguing possible?  What have you actually accomplished in this thread?  About the only thing is to piss off just about everyone who's tried talking to you; you haven't actually convinced anyone that your arguments are worth listening to, let alone that they might be correct.  Nobody's going to accept that you're right about something just because you think you are.  And sooner or later, nobody's going to bother trying to talk to you.  I'm sure you'll consider this a victory, but if it is, it's a purely Pyrrhic one.  If you've only won because everyone else got sick of trying to argue with you and basically ignores what you try to say, then what good is it?

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #701 on: July 18, 2014, 04:50:52 PM »
B is not miracles. Miracles are the proof of the existence of God. The evidence that God is the cause of the miracle comes from your knowledge of God and what he can do and what he would do if he was to prove his existence using a miracle. From that knowledge you can conclude that it is indeed God who caused the event, we then call the event miracle.

So the evidence that “God” (something which does not exist) is the cause of the miracle comes from knowledge of “God” (something that does not exist).  So I need to know things about something that doesn’t exist in order to have the evidence that the something which doesn’t exist was the cause.  Again, this is nothing more than a futile exercise in confirmation bias.

I note YET AGAIN, you don’t actually provide the source of the evidence which demonstrates that “God” was the cause.

Quit stonewalling and answer the questions.

I did answer.  Here, I’ll shorten the discussion for you.

You asked generally what my reaction would be if you asked for evidence regarding the Higgs bosen particle and what different our reactions are.

My answer, I would provide you evidence regarding the Higgs bosen particle.  The difference between our reactions is that you continue to NOT provide evidence showing that “God” was the cause.

Of course, now you are accusing me of stonewalling while not answering my requests,  so who is the one stonewalling here?  You are dude.

Sorry, with your explanation on evidence previously in this post, I realize that I should have written "the evidence is in the miracles" I understand that little word can make a whole lot of difference. Good thing you took time to explain further the bit about evidences.

Doesn’t matter what you should have written.  Whether it is in the miracles or it is the miracles is the same result.  Miracles are supposed to be an act of “God” and you have yet to show any evidence that a miracle is actually anything at all.  Oh we know something happened for which we don’t know the cause, it is then the Catholic Church that declares it a miracle.  I keep asking for evidence that allows them to make such a declaration.  YOU, then insist that the evidence that the cause of the event was “God” is IN the “act of God”.

You’re down to two letters now buddy.  I and N.  You are hiding your lack of any evidence what-so-ever behind two letters.  What the FUCK is the IN!?!?!?!

Miracles are not evidence that it is God who made them. Miracles are evidence of the existence of God outside your body.

Okay, that is your claim.   I do not see any supporting evidence for your claim.

It would appear we are at an impasse.  You think you’ve provided the evidence.  I think what you’ve provided is not evidence.

I don’t see any way forward.  From my perspective, you don’t seem willing to acknowledge the problems with your logic and evidence. 

I can provide you links to theology courses and books and website if you want. You will then have the necessary background information to know it was indeed an act from God. See? Your reaction is not that different than mine.

Oh it wasn't so hard. You don't have to twist you mind that much. "allow yourself to learn how to detect God" simply means take some course in theology. Do you want me to redirect you to the University closest to you?

I hope this will help you :
http://education-portal.com/articles/5_Universities_Offering_Free_Theology_and_World_Religions_Courses_Online.html

Beside the stonewalling for step 4 and 5 I believe that your study in theology will answer your counter arguments for the other steps.

OMG! I had already told you about theologians. Look at that! I am smarter than I think I am haha. Since your post was so long I took time to answer each part when in fact the answer was already been given. Just maybe misunderstood.
What you might not have understood about theology is that it is where you learn how to determine that God is the cause. It is not a secret information, you can read books about theology and follow the courses that I've linked you.

Stories about a fictional character that cannot actually be shown to exist does not prove anything.  Scientific test results based on reality prove something.  Our reactions are polar opposites.

The problem here is you think our reactions are the same, that is your only goal is to equate reality with fiction.  This is the only hope for your fiction, to get me to believe that it is the same as reality.  Your hope is to trick me. 

Give me enough time and I (or some rock expert or some alien expert) will prove you that the rock that you have was NOT put there by aliens from another planet.

No, you or any expert could not.  I will just use your tactics.  They have to prove that the rock was not placed there by aliens.  They could give me all the scientific information imaginable regarding rocks, history and aliens, but none of it would ever be able to prove that aliens didn’t put the rock there.  Why?  Because, all I need to do is use your logic and the logic used by apologists and theologians.  The logic is making a claim that can’t be falsified. 

Of course, you don’t understand what falsifiable means, do you?

You can’t think of a way to prove the rock didn’t come from aliens can you?  You think all you need is time, and if you can’t do it, someone else can.   Your response is nothing more than an attempt to weasel out of having to acknowledge that your claims and the claims of the Catholic Church can’t be falsified and thus do not follow the scientific method.

I understand that Altuna Runestone is not presented as proof of the existence of Thor. Now you shift to some other example. That's ok.
Big Foot footprints are presented as proof of the existence of Big foot? I remember reading an article about that and how these footprints where in fact made by kids with sticks and plastic feet. Are you sure you want to compare The miracle of Lanciano to Bigfoot footprints? Because I believe there are some trusty website that I can find that will convince you that they are not proof of anything.

Your link doesn’t falsify all 900 foot prints.  Of course the footprints could be faked, just like the Miracle of Lanciano could be faked.  Unfortunately, just because some kids with sticks and plastic feet could make the foot prints, doesn’t mean that they actually did.  In the same way, some person could have put human tissue and blood in the church and made up the story.  In the same way, someone could have carved the Altuna Runestone and then make up a story that Thor made the Runestone. 

They’re all stories that can’t be proven true and can’t be proven false.  That is the point you are going out of your way to miss.

Could any of the stories be true, sure, maybe “God” does exist and actually turned the bread to flesh and the wine to blood.  Maybe Bigfoot does exist and some of those foot prints are actually Bigfoot footprints.  Maybe Thor does exist and did actually carve the Altuna Runestone.

Unfortunately, there isn’t any solid evidence one way or the other for any of the stories.  You however believe one and not the others because you’ve already decided that “God” exists and what the Catholic Church says is the truth.  This is further evidence of your confirmation bias.

Explain to me how they are detected and hwy they are detected that way. I will then have a specific mean that I would use to detect the existence of leprechauns or Santa Clause BEFORE telling you that your means are not working.

Wait a second, when did I say that the methods used by the Catholic Church are not working?  Can you quote when I said that?  I’ve been saying that from what I can find, from your sources and my sources, that the methods used are illogical.  They are a logical fallacy, “God of the gaps” and argument from ignorance to name a few.  So because of this, there is no scientific method used.

I’ve explained to you what the steps are to determine if “God” was the cause.  First you have to detect “God”.  Regarding detecting “God”, I can find no means in which the Catholic Church has actually accomplished this.  So again, I know of no method.  There is no methods in either instance.  So it isn’t that their method isn’t working, it’s that their method does not exist.  So you continue to ask me for details on how to detect something which I don’t know to exist, it’s not my hypothesis. 

You’re expecting me to give you something to review and compare when I have been given nothing to review and compare.  Why do I have to give you information that you refuse to give me?  You are asking me to do what neither you or the Catholic Church can do, and you guys believe “God’ exists while I do not.  Wouldn’t that be an amazing story, Atheist does what Theists could not do, prove that “God” exists?

Stop dodging.  Give me a source or evidence as to what there method is for determining that “God” is the cause.  Once I am able to review the methods, then I’ll be able to tell you if I can find a problem or not and tell you what I think.  If the methods are sound then I’ll need to reevaluate what I believe and don’t believe.


The best would be that you review it yourself. That way you will be sure that the reviewing has been done correctly. If you want to read about the others reviewing, I think you will have to read books or go to the Vatican archives. Maybe with luck you can find a theological review online for the miracle you want to investigate. Something along the lines of that book.

I have no reason to go on wild goose chases to support your claim.  I’m not going to do your work for you.  If you don’t have the evidence that I’m asking for, just say so and admit that you cannot support your claim that “Miracles are proof of the existence of God outside our minds”.

IMO, from what I’ve read about the Miracle of Lanciano, I have no reason what-so-ever to believe that it is true.  It can easily be a hoax, and given the time period that it is said to occurred, it is almost likely that it is a hoax.  Even if I believed that it was a miracle, I myself would have no way to prove that it is true, which is exactly the same boat you are in.  Of course, your confirmation bias leads you to believe it is true just because it hasn’t been proven wrong yet.  Problem is, it can’t be proven wrong any more than it can be proven right. 

I’m sorry Lukvance, I don’t believe things I have no reason to believe are true.  Hasn’t been proven wrong yet, isn’t good enough for me.  Furthermore, you do your belief disservice by having such low standards.  If you’re going to believe something, don’t you want it to be clear as a sunny cloudless day that it is true?   I know I do, so until some clear evidence is found that the Miracle of Lanciano story is true, I have no reason to believe it is even though it hasn’t been proven wrong yet either.

As for your book, from what I can tell, it only proves that the flesh and blood exists, it does nothing to corroborate the story.

Wow, that was the longest reply I ever posted. I hope you will find your answers inside it.

Nope, you didn’t provide any evidence that “God” is the cause.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:53:13 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #702 on: July 18, 2014, 04:58:29 PM »
The buck stops--and starts-- with god. The all powerful, can do anything, loves us just so much god.

If he does not or cannot accept full and complete responsibility for what he has created, he ain't much of a god. If he shifts the blame for his plan not working out correctly onto the being he created, he ain't much of a god. If this being is intentionally much less powerful and knowledgeable than him, so he can feel extra godlike, he ain't much of a god. If he then punishes that being for being weak and lacking in knowledge, when that is the way he made them, he ain't much of a god. Finally, if he can't even convince the being that he actually exists, he ain't much of a god.

And it's pitiful to watch believers jump through logic loopholes big enough to hold Lukvance's ego, trying to make excuses for why their all-powerful loving god doesn't ever do anything worthwhile that anyone can detect:

1) God used to do all this awesome sh!t, see, back before video and science, but now he only works through puny, flawed human beings, so what do you expect but crap?  He also works through epidemics, crop failures, wildfires, tornadoes and hurricanes and tsunamis. And through the vast eternal silence of the empty godspace in the echoing depths of your immortal soul. So watch it. The earthquakes and diseases will continue until morale improves. Worm. (God as bitter puppeteer ghostwriter doing mime. In black clothes. In the dark. God played by Alan Rickman.)

2) God's really gonna show you what for, but he's just biding his time until he has shown everyone that humans can't run the world without him. When everything is ruined, ruined I say, then he'll come back and fix it all. For his special friends only. Not. For. You. Until then, Armageddon outta here. Stamps big godly foot. (God as whiny petulant spoiled child king handyman. God played by Garry Shandling.)

3) Satan is in charge of this world, that's why things are so effed up. Except for the good stuff, that's all god's work. And no complaining about why everyone doesn't get the good stuff, and no breaking any one of the 17,845 contradictory rules clearly explained in Aramaic invisible ink on the lease your ancestors signed back when they were fish with feet or you get evicted. Things could be and will be worse. Grrrr. (God as Donald Trump psycho absentee slumlord owner of a decaying Section 8 planet with one nice apartment that he keeps in good condition for his no-good creepy molester brother-in-law. Played by Christopher Walken with Mickey Rourke as Satan. Cillian Murphy cameo as creepy molester tenant.)

4) God is everywhere, performing fabulous sparkling miracles right and left, but mainly right.  If you click your heels three times, salute, genuflect and kowtow in just the right manner of abject submission, maybe, just maybe he won't send you straight to hell, which is, of course, separation from him. You just refuse to see him because you don't want him in your life, and he does not show up where he is not wanted. Hmph. (God as Fairy Godmother Scarlet Pimpernel easily offended Greta Garbo diva.  Played by Harvey Fierstein in drag.)

5) God desperately is trying to reach you, but have blocked out god because of your sinful nature, and bad cell reception in your area.  You have to tune into god's frequency and then you will have the 24-hour god show. Loud electrical and mechanical noises. (God as a 1956 console television with 3 network channels, rabbit ear antenna and lots of static. Played by Robin Williams.)

Now, does any of that sound like someone worthy of worship to you? Really? Laughing and pointing, maybe. Walking away in disgust, sure. Running like hell away, probably. But worship-- and for all eternity? N-word, please.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #703 on: July 18, 2014, 05:04:10 PM »
Dear median,
I believe that you don't want to acknowledge theology as the science of God. But it is like not wanting to acknowledge physics class as the science of particle physics. To know about God academically you have to follow theology classes. You are allowed to learn about god "by yourself" like you are allowed to learn about particle physics "by yourself".
"These classes do not demonstrate the miraculous each semester" Is as true as the particle physics classes do not demonstrate the existence of the Higgs Boson each semester. I agree with you!
These courses are just a necessary piece for the demonstration in one hand of the existence of the Higgs Boson and the other hand the existence of God.
You say :
DEMONSTRATION OF YOUR VICIOUS CIRCULARITY:
-What is a miracle?
-A miracle is an act of God.
-How do you know God exists outside your brain?
-Because there are miracles (acts of God) at Lourdes
-So...God exists because God did an act of God???
I say :
DEMONSTRATION OF the existence of God:
-What is a miracle?
-A miracle is God interacting with this world.
-How do you know God exists outside your brain?
-Because there are miracles and I am not causing them with my brain.
-So...God exists because God interact with this world.

If your definition of miracle is akin to "an act of God" then you cannot use that as evidence for the alleged "God" existing outside your brain b/c you have placed your conclusion inside your premise - which is viciously circular.
You are correct. I believe the trouble you have understanding the proof comes from the use of the word miracle.
I told you that miracle are proof of the existence of God. But I might as well told you that events that have God as an explanation are proof of his existence.
God comes as a conclusion of the event, not the premise. At the beginning you don't have God, you just have an event then you look for what could have caused the event. If the event happen in a controlled environment (as Lourdes for example) you could conclude that the event was caused by God.

I hope this will clarify things.

Yes, this clarifies how utterly irrational you are. Look again at your argument:

Quote
God exists because God interact with this world.
This is CIRCULAR REASONING. It is irrational. "God exists" is your conclusion and therefore you cannot use "God" in your premises. So you cannot say, "God exists because God..." and be rational. You are using a logical fallacy. All you have done here is restate your same fallacious argument. So just stop it already. If you say that you know "God exists" b/c "God interacts with the world" then you are begging the question (which is another fallacy). You need to actually DEMONSTRATE that "God interacts with the world", independently of assuming your own definition.

LET'S SEE ANOTHER EXAMPLE!


P1 - Unicorns interact with the world
C1 - Therefore, unicorns exist

This argument is logically fallacious because it assumes it's conclusion at the outset. Your argument is circular in the same way b/c you are trying to assume your conclusion inside your premise. You cannot say that miracles are "God interacting with the world" and then simultaneously pretend that miracles are "evidence of God", b/c if you did your argument would be thus:

- God interacting with the world is evidence of God

You have not demonstrated that "God interacts with the world". This is the very thing you need to prove. So you cannot merely assume it. Otherwise you are using circular reasoning and arguing irrationally.

Lastly, theology is not "the science of God" because no God has been demonstrated to exist. On the contrary, physics HAS been demonstrated as real science based upon real, demonstrated, and independently verifiable evidence (such as physical things!). Therefore, your analogy is a false one and is therefore fallacious. Physics classes DO in fact demonstrate the claims therein. And once again, you can STOP bringing up the Higgs Boson because it is NOT discussed in most physics classes and it is NOT something I claim to know about (so I could be agnostic about it). Are you agnostic about God?

EDIT: Here's another funny one of yours.

Quote
We know how God can interact with the world we measured his interactions and it acted like we predicted. How is it still god of the gaps argument?

No you don't know that "God can interact with the world". You have ASSUMED that a God exists in order to merely ASSERT that. This OP requires that you demonstrate how you know a "God" thing exists and does things in the world. Merely looking at things that happen in the world (things you don't understand) and asserting that a God did it is logically fallacious (it's called the Argument from Ignorance fallacy). You have unexplained occurrences of things. But those do not equate to "God" anymore than they equate to unicorns, Leprechauns, or magic pixies. Just making an assertion that "God did it" doesn't make it true. You need to demonstrate how you know that a God did it and not something else. Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 05:17:31 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #704 on: July 18, 2014, 05:37:49 PM »
Just like the discussion of miracles being investigated scientifically-- the Catholic Church evidently uses the outcome of the supposed miracle (a paralyzed hand can now move) as the evidence of the supposed miracle. If you are investigating a phenomenon, you cannot at the same time use that phenomenon as evidence of what you are investigating!

That would be like a police detective investigating a suspicious death and asking, "What killed the victim?" The coroner responds, "Death. Death killed the victim."

Funny, but not informative.

Likewise, saying that the hand was healed by god, with a miracle from god, and the healed hand is your evidence of both god and of godly miracles, is mind-bogglingly medieval. It's downright Monty Python-esque, like the witch and the duck scene in Holy Grail. Only apparently the Vatican still really operates this way. In 2014, just like in 1414.

You know how to tell someone is a witch, or a heretic, or possessed by a demon or whatever? You torture them until they say they are a witch or a heretic or whatever. Now you have a confession, and that is proof that the person was guilty. So you can safely execute the criminal, knowing that you never kill a person who is innocent. Because you have their confession, see.  :P

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #705 on: July 18, 2014, 08:03:22 PM »
luk sure is a funny troll, laughs his ass off watchin y'all explain the dumb shit he posts is dumb shit.

i never used to like him but now i think he is funnier n shit.

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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #706 on: July 18, 2014, 09:53:22 PM »
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #707 on: July 19, 2014, 05:08:21 AM »
I see a lot of unsupported claims.
No. No you do not. You just see a lot of questions that you cannot answer.

All gods exist as the mental image of our ignorance. To accept that a god does anything at all, is to give up thinking.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #708 on: July 19, 2014, 05:58:44 PM »
now you are accusing me of stonewalling while not answering my requests,  so who is the one stonewalling here?
You were. But that's ok. I don't need the information anymore. You gave me enough afterwards so I was able to understand your viewpoint. I answered your question. It was along the lines "how can I know it is God who caused the event?" and the answer is along the line "by studying God".

Wait a second, when did I say that the methods used by the Catholic Church are not working?  Can you quote when I said that?  I’ve been saying that from what I can find, from your sources and my sources, that the methods used are illogical.
They are a logical fallacy, “God of the gaps” and argument from ignorance to name a few.  So because of this, there is no scientific method used.
If "it's a logical fallacy" is not your counter argument on the method used by Catholic Church, what is? Knowledge of the process to detect God? You can learn it in theology.

Quote
What the FUCK is the IN!?!?!?!
Miracles happen in a certain kind of way and environment. These can help determine that it was God's touch therefore the proof is in the miracles. The proof is in the event would be more politically correct.
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Of course, you don’t understand what falsifiable means, do you? You can’t think of a way to prove the rock didn’t come from aliens can you?
Yes I do. Yes I can. This is not the subject.

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If you’re going to believe something, don’t you want it to be clear as a sunny cloudless day that it is true?
Yes I do. And it is.

I’ve explained to you what the steps are to determine if “God” was the cause.  First you have to detect “God”.  Regarding detecting “God”, I can find no means in which the Catholic Church has actually accomplished this.  So again, I know of no method.  There is no methods in either instance.  So it isn’t that their method isn’t working, it’s that their method does not exist.  So you continue to ask me for details on how to detect something which I don’t know to exist, it’s not my hypothesis. 
You’re expecting me to give you something to review and compare when I have been given nothing to review and compare.  Why do I have to give you information that you refuse to give me?  You are asking me to do what neither you or the Catholic Church can do, and you guys believe “God’ exists while I do not.  Wouldn’t that be an amazing story, Atheist does what Theists could not do, prove that “God” exists?
Stop dodging.  Give me a source or evidence as to what there method is for determining that “God” is the cause.  Once I am able to review the methods, then I’ll be able to tell you if I can find a problem or not and tell you what I think.  If the methods are sound then I’ll need to reevaluate what I believe and don’t believe.
Do you think that the Higgs Boson exist?
There are studies that have been made before proving it's existence. Weren't the people studies made on "something that does not exist" at the time?
We call the field who studied the Higgs Boson. Physics.
We call the field who studied God. Theology.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what a Higgs Boson is and how it should behave, we found it at the LHC.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what God is and how he should behave, we found him at Lourdes.

Please, please, refrain yourself from insulting me about the Higgs Boson. I know it's tempting as the comparison is daring but let your counter arguments speak for themselves instead of supporting them with hidden or not hidden insults.

Ps : "source as to what there method is for determining that “God” is the cause" = Theology.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #709 on: July 19, 2014, 06:01:02 PM »
Now, does any of that sound like someone worthy of worship to you? Really? Laughing and pointing, maybe. Walking away in disgust, sure. Running like hell away, probably. But worship-- and for all eternity? N-word, please.
No id does not sound like someone worthy of worship. I believe that the someone you are describing is not God. But this is for another discussion ok?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #710 on: July 19, 2014, 06:12:03 PM »
You need to demonstrate how you know that a God did it and not something else. Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
I totally agree with your last sentence and most of what you said.
What I disagree with is that you said
Quote
theology is not "the science of God" because no God has been demonstrated to exist.
Isn't it like saying Particle Physics is not "the science of Higgs Boson" because no Higgs Boson has been demonstrated to exist? If not, what is the difference?
Theology allows you to "know how God could interact with the world and measure his interactions".
Particle Physics allows you to "know how the Higgs Boson could interact with the world and measure his interactions".
This is my counter argument. If you agree then you will have Miracles as proof of the existence of God as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #711 on: July 19, 2014, 06:26:04 PM »
restated more effectively next post
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 06:42:32 PM by jaimehlers »

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #712 on: July 19, 2014, 06:42:10 PM »
Do you think that the Higgs Boson exist?
There are studies that have been made before proving it's existence. Weren't the people studies made on "something that does not exist" at the time?
We call the field who studied the Higgs Boson. Physics.
We call the field who studied God. Theology.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what a Higgs Boson is and how it should behave, we found it at the LHC.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what God is and how he should behave, we found him at Lourdes.
What I think is that until such time as you show that you know what you're talking about, any statement you make about the Higgs boson will automatically be disregarded.  It is very simple; for a comparison to be meaningful, your knowledge about the two subjects must be sufficient for people to accept that you know what you're talking about.  Most of the people in this topic are no longer willing to accept that because you've wasted too much of your credibility with us making claims that are not believable.

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Please, please, refrain yourself from insulting me about the Higgs Boson. I know it's tempting as the comparison is daring but let your counter arguments speak for themselves instead of supporting them with hidden or not hidden insults.
Here's the most non-insulting way I can put it.  Very simply, you will not be believed in any statement you make about the Higgs boson until such time as you explain what you know about it.  To use a fairly simple analogy which might get across what you mean, your credibility with us is like a credit account.  You can make claims, and thus draw on that credibility, or you can explain knowledge you have and thus add to it.  You have drawn down your credibility so much that most people who are involved in this topic are not willing to extend you any more unless and until you you start adding to it.  Yet you're refusing to, instead continuing to draw on credibility that you've overused, and making those people even less likely to accept additional claims.

Very simply, if you want us to extend you additional credibility, you must show us that it won't be wasted.  it's exactly like going to a bank to get a loan; if you cannot convince the bank's loan officer that you will not use their funds wisely, they will not loan them to you, no matter how much you want them to.  You've blown your credibility with us, and if you want more, you have to show us that you know what you're talking about.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #713 on: July 19, 2014, 06:55:41 PM »
No chance!

Luk, I thought you were a hopeless case that is why I don't talk to you. Prove me wrong.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #714 on: July 19, 2014, 07:05:06 PM »

Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what a Higgs Boson is and how it should behave, we found it at the LHC.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what God is and how he should behave, we found him at Lourdes.
I have not the faintest idea why you think that Physics and Theology are anything like each other.

Physics is a rigorous science based on mathematics.

Theology is as described in my signature below. In case you missed it:

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

Theology has not contributed anything useful to mankind, and never will. It is not a science, it can't be tested and it appears to be unfalsifiable. It is based on an assumption that there is an invisible being who can do magic.

Even claiming that Physics and Theology might, in some way, be similar is to admit that you are either trying to delude us or you are yourself delusional.

Worship your mystic deity as others throughout time have worshipped theirs, but do not try and convince yourself or anyone else that there is anything scientific, provable, testable about it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 07:06:37 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #715 on: July 19, 2014, 08:14:39 PM »
If the Higgs Boson was not found to exist, physics would still survive as a discipline. Scientists would just say, well, back to the drawing board, we were wrong about that. Many ideas proposed by scientists are shown to be wrong. That is how science works, by trying to prove things wrong. It is called falsification. It is the very basis of science. You find things out by showing what is not true.

Example: If you think that humans and other primates are related to each other, and share a common ancestry, you don't just declare that and condemn people who disagree as evil or stupid. You have to be able to say, let's assume that humans and other primates are not related to each other and see where that gets us. You do the experiments to show what is really the case, either way. And you find the DNA of humans is more similar to that of other primates than between humans and any other animals. That is called evidence. You will never prove that humans and other primates are related 100%, but the more evidence you get in favor, the more likely it is to be true.

Evidence. That is why evolution is likely to be true. Evidence.  So far, the theory has not been falsified. Evidence.

With religion, however, you cannot do those kinds of experiments. You cannot go to the Catholic Church and say, let's look at your miracles and see what happens when we assume there is no god involved. You know. Scientific falsification. No way would they approve of that.

If god is falsified by the experiment, that is, found not to exist, would religious people say, well, back to the drawing board, we were wrong about that? I think not. Even though many ideas proposed by religion are shown to be wrong, the religious cannot accept that they are wrong. Theology, the Catholic Church, Christianity, miracles, Lourdes, Lukvance, skeptic, Jst all rely on god being real. No matter what the evidence shows, god has to be real. Any evidence that falsifies god is discarded, because god can never be falsified. That is why religion is not and never can be scientific.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #716 on: July 19, 2014, 09:30:35 PM »
If science worked like religion, we'd have things like The First Evolutionary Lab of Carbon-Based Genetics arguing with The Legitimate Son of Watson and Crick Research Facility for Junk DNA about whether researcher Rosalind Franklin was a virgin when she found the DNA helix in photos of DNA.

I couldn't live like that.

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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #717 on: July 19, 2014, 11:33:00 PM »
You need to demonstrate how you know that a God did it and not something else. Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
I totally agree with your last sentence and most of what you said.
What I disagree with is that you said
Quote
theology is not "the science of God" because no God has been demonstrated to exist.
Isn't it like saying Particle Physics is not "the science of Higgs Boson" because no Higgs Boson has been demonstrated to exist? If not, what is the difference?
Theology allows you to "know how God could interact with the world and measure his interactions".
Particle Physics allows you to "know how the Higgs Boson could interact with the world and measure his interactions".
This is my counter argument. If you agree then you will have Miracles as proof of the existence of God as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

You keep using the same logical fallacies as if the next time I will accept them. I don't. I have already stated that for the purposes of this discussion I can admit agnosticism about the Higgs Boson. Are you willing to admit agnosticism about God?

Secondly, the HB is not a supernatural claim. And therefore your attempt to compare the science of the HB with alleged "miracles" is a false analogy, since there is no coherent conception of what "supernatural" means. Physics IS an independently demonstrable science. Theology is NOT! Physics can independently demonstrate it's claims. Theology cannot! So you simply cannot compare them b/c it is apples to oranges (a false analogy). Until you can actually demonstrate that theology is based on an actual real God you have nothing in this area (b/c w/out a real "God" outside the brain there is no valid subject of "theology"). Again, I can makeup a "study of unicorns" and then assert that unicorns are real. It does nothing.

Lastly, you have failed to respond to my rebuttal earlier. You used a logically fallacious circular argument when you attempt to say that miracles (i.e. - "God interacting with the world") are evidence of God. Again, you cannot put "God" in your premises b/c that is the very thing you need to DEMONSTRATE in your conclusion! So your argument is irrational and needs to be corrected.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #718 on: July 20, 2014, 02:03:26 PM »
With religion, however, you cannot do those kinds of experiments. You cannot go to the Catholic Church and say, let's look at your miracles and see what happens when we assume there is no god involved. You know. Scientific falsification. No way would they approve of that.

If god is falsified by the experiment, that is, found not to exist, would religious people say, well, back to the drawing board, we were wrong about that? I think not.
I think so. Did you try? It is really hard to falsify more than 2000 years of knowledge.
You can go to the Catholic Church and say, let's look at your miracles and see what happens when we assume there is no god involved. You have all the information available. Just do it. I'm pretty sure you'll get the same result that we have. It was indeed an act from God.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #719 on: July 20, 2014, 02:05:10 PM »

Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what a Higgs Boson is and how it should behave, we found it at the LHC.
Based on those study. Armed with the knowledge of what God is and how he should behave, we found him at Lourdes.
I have not the faintest idea why you think that Physics and Theology are anything like each other.

Physics is a rigorous science based on mathematics.

Theology is as described in my signature below. In case you missed it:

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

Theology has not contributed anything useful to mankind, and never will. It is not a science, it can't be tested and it appears to be unfalsifiable. It is based on an assumption that there is an invisible being who can do magic.

Even claiming that Physics and Theology might, in some way, be similar is to admit that you are either trying to delude us or you are yourself delusional.

Worship your mystic deity as others throughout time have worshipped theirs, but do not try and convince yourself or anyone else that there is anything scientific, provable, testable about it.
Care to support those claims? in another subject maybe? A discussion even?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #720 on: July 20, 2014, 02:06:22 PM »
If science worked like religion, we'd have things like The First Evolutionary Lab of Carbon-Based Genetics arguing with The Legitimate Son of Watson and Crick Research Facility for Junk DNA about whether researcher Rosalind Franklin was a virgin when she found the DNA helix in photos of DNA.
Care to support these claims? in another subject maybe? A discussion even?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #721 on: July 20, 2014, 02:15:58 PM »
You keep using the same logical fallacies as if the next time I will accept them. I don't. I have already stated that for the purposes of this discussion I can admit agnosticism about the Higgs Boson. Are you willing to admit agnosticism about God?
Yes.

Quote
Secondly, the HB is not a supernatural claim. And therefore your attempt to compare the science of the HB with alleged "miracles" is a false analogy, since there is no coherent conception of what "supernatural" means. Physics IS an independently demonstrable science. Theology is NOT! Physics can independently demonstrate it's claims. Theology cannot! So you simply cannot compare them b/c it is apples to oranges (a false analogy). Until you can actually demonstrate that theology is based on an actual real God you have nothing in this area (b/c w/out a real "God" outside the brain there is no valid subject of "theology"). Again, I can makeup a "study of unicorns" and then assert that unicorns are real. It does nothing.
I'm sorry, these claims need more support for me to accept them.
Theology allows the study of something that might exist (God) based on something that do exist.
Particle Physics allows the study of something that might exist (HB) based on something that do exist.

Quote
Lastly, you have failed to respond to my rebuttal earlier. You used a logically fallacious circular argument when you attempt to say that miracles (i.e. - "God interacting with the world") are evidence of God. Again, you cannot put "God" in your premises b/c that is the very thing you need to DEMONSTRATE in your conclusion! So your argument is irrational and needs to be corrected.
The corrected argument is "Events like those found in Lourdes are the evidence of the existence of God interacting with the world". Is it better?
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #722 on: July 20, 2014, 02:26:45 PM »
If science worked like religion, we'd have things like The First Evolutionary Lab of Carbon-Based Genetics arguing with The Legitimate Son of Watson and Crick Research Facility for Junk DNA about whether researcher Rosalind Franklin was a virgin when she found the DNA helix in photos of DNA.
Care to support these claims? in another subject maybe? A discussion even?

I let my jokes stand on their own. But I'd love to have a discussion. Do you know anyone who I could talk to that listens?
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #723 on: July 20, 2014, 03:16:00 PM »
I wish I could say that I was surprised by Lukvance's total unwillingness to demonstrate that he knows thing one about the Higgs boson (even though this should be trivial and would take at most a couple of paragraphs...assuming he knew something about it; I would have at least answered it even if it was off-topic).  Since he has again dodged the issue, I will repeat my suggestion to others, not to respond to any attempt by him to use the Higgs boson in his argument (except to repeat what I have already said, that he needs to demonstrate that he knows what he's talking about).  We cannot force him to demonstrate that he knows anything about it, but we can at least keep him from getting anywhere with his tactic of false equivocation.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #724 on: July 20, 2014, 03:46:54 PM »
Particle Physics allows the study of something that might exist (HB) based on something that do exist.
No, it isn't.  No branch of science whatsoever is based around the idea of studying things that might exist based on things that do exist.  Science is based on understanding things that have been demonstrated to exist.  So a scientific study of unexplained healings, say at Lourdes, would check to make sure that those healings were statistically significant, and then would attempt to find what caused them by demonstrating a clear and conclusive link.

Your church has done neither of these things.  It has not shown that the healings are statistically significant, and it has not shown that there is a clear and conclusive link between them and its proposed cause.

The standard apologetic answer to the lack of statistical significance is that your god has a mind of his own and can choose whether to heal or not to heal people; however, this is merely an excuse.  The reason we need to check the statistical significance of something is to make sure that it does happen at a different rate than similar happenings elsewhere, and that it happens frequently enough to generate a sufficiently large sample size to be useful.  Without those two pieces of evidence, no study can be properly scientific no matter how much one might wish otherwise.

The standard apologetic answer to the lack of a clear and conclusive link is that these healings have a 0% probability of happening on their own.  However, this is a misnomer.  The only time we can say that someone has a 0% chance of naturally recovering from something is when they are already dead.  If they are still alive, then it may be extremely improbable that they will recover, but it cannot be ruled out.  That is why the criteria that a person has no chance of recovery is not an effective one; doctors may very well give someone a 0% chance of recovery, but that does not mean that they have no chance of recovery.  It just means that the chances of them recovering are so low that they might as well be zero.

Addendum:

http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2008/08/lourdes-and-healing.html

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The point of investigating Lourdes miracles for the church is to give glory to Mary, not to establish a scientific law or a statistical incidence rate on miracles.
This is what I like to call a red flag, especially considering the other things I already mentioned.  The purpose of investigating these events has nothing to do with science; it is simply to get it on record that science can't explain them, at which point it's 'safe' to pass them off as God-given miracles in order to glorify Mary (and the church, of course).

Care to respond to this?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 03:58:40 PM by jaimehlers »