Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 11951 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2014, 07:06:22 PM »
God : the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
If you want to learn more about God and the reasons why so many believe in him you should stick around.
If you don't care, it's ok too. You can continue to live a happy life respecting your conscience.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2014, 09:06:21 PM »
This is not proof that they did.

Explain why.

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What do you mean? This link is the Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence?

You brought up mathematics. The link explains how, unlike your concept of "God", that mathematics are testable, measurable, quantifiable and verifiable. Mathematics, also unlike your concept of "God", is constant. 1+1 will still equal 2 no matter where you go in the universe.

The definition of "God", however, varies from individual to individual even if by a minor amount. Using your own ontological argument, therefore there must exist as many versions of "God" as there are individual definitions of said God: all separate entities separate from the human brain.
Is this not the case, according to your argument? If you say no, then your argument is inconsistently and prejudiciously applied and therefore made invalid. If you say yes, then your personal interpretation of "God" has some stiff competition for the title of #1 deity in the universe.

Which is it, Luk?

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I could. But I want you to realize first that nothing immaterial can be proven that way.

Nothing? You sure? Poltergeists by their definition are also immaterial, yet can manipulate objects and interact with their environment which can most definitely be tested and verified using equipment such as EMF Meters, Full Spectrum Cams, EVP Recorders, etc.

Mind you, I do not believe in poltergeists, but then again I am not the one "defining" them in to existence.

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So, accept that nothing immaterial can be proven using Testable, Measurable, Quantifiable, Verifiable evidence and we can move back to my first statement.

See above.

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The existence of God by it's definition.

...Which I have already shown in my first response, philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does not equate to evidence.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 09:08:04 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #60 on: May 26, 2014, 09:17:28 PM »
 I don't think we have the same definition of testable.
How can you test the existence of mathematics? Or is it test mathematics? Or... I don't know what testable stand for according to mathematics. Maybe if you give me an example of how mathematics are testable I could give you one equivalent where God is testable.
Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #61 on: May 26, 2014, 09:38:03 PM »
I don't think we have the same definition of testable.
How can you test the existence of mathematics? Or is it test mathematics? Or... I don't know what testable stand for according to mathematics. Maybe if you give me an example of how mathematics are testable I could give you one equivalent where God is testable.

Count your fingers. One, two, three, four, five. Count your fingers on your other hand. One, two, three, four, five. How many fingers do you have total? Ten?

Do it again. Still come up with ten?

Walk in to another part of your house and repeat the experiment. Still 10 fingers?

You have just tested and verified mathematics. A repeatable result that comes out the same no matter who performs the experiment (as long as they have 10 fingers. 5+5 will always =10) or where they happen to be.

Now, your turn.

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.

According to who?

Two questions. One: does philosophical conjecture and personal opinion equate to evidence when talking about material beings? Would philosophical conjecture and personal opinion be enough to prove a material entity exists?

Two: can your definition of "God" interact with the environment? Can He manipulate physical objects? I would assume if a mere poltergeist can, an all-mighty deity such as your God most certainly can.

If so, then your God can most certainly be scrutinized and verified using the scientific method. Examples, please.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 09:40:02 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2014, 09:40:18 PM »
DoS,you can't fix stupid.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2014, 09:42:45 PM »
DoS,you can't fix stupid.

What can I say? I'm a masochist. 8)
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2014, 09:43:16 PM »
DoS,you can't fix stupid.
Don't despair. You're not that stupid.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2014, 09:52:58 PM »
Count your fingers. One, two, three, four, five. Count your fingers on your other hand. One, two, three, four, five. How many fingers do you have total? Ten?
I will stop you there. I am playing devils advocate and saying that mathematics don't exist and you are trying to prove that it does, right? So i can't count.
Your turn again.

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.
According to who?
To me.

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does philosophical conjecture and personal opinion equate to evidence when talking about material beings? Would philosophical conjecture and personal opinion be enough to prove a material entity exists?
For me yes. As per the example of the car that my parents bought me.

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can your definition of "God" interact with the environment? Can He manipulate physical objects? I would assume if a mere poltergeist can, an all-mighty deity such as your God most certainly can.
He can, but won't. He will use me instead.
This immaterial thing can either
a. Interact with the material world - like you say your god can
OR
b. Cannot interact with the material world.
I'm incline to say b) But there is this "God made it all" thing. So, he wrote the code of everything and hit run.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2014, 10:27:42 PM »
I will stop you there. I am playing devils advocate and saying that mathematics don't exist and you are trying to prove that it does, right? So i can't count.
Your turn again.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, Luk! I can perform the same experiment right before your very eyes! But, wait! I wouldn't expect you to trust my fingers, so I then repeat the experiment using your fingers to get the same, exact result! And should you still be a little... slow on the uptake, I or anyone else can continue this experiment until you can finally figure it out or... well, I suppose some people just refuse to accept math in to their lives.... ;)

Back to you.

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.
According to who? To me.

Your response actually made me laugh... until I realized you were not purposefully trying to be humorous. Are you appealing to yourself as an authority? Care to back that up with some credentials?

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For me yes. As per the example of the car that my parents bought me.

Is this an example from another thread, because I do not recall reading it. Anywho, then you would then have no problem accepting that, say, the Frankenstein monster exists as a physical entity as long as you trust the opinion of the person imparting this information and can provide a definition that points to his existence? I know this has been addressed by other posters, but the term that applies is "gullible".

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He can, but won't. He will use me instead.
This immaterial thing can either
a. Interact with the material world - like you say your god can
OR
b. Cannot interact with the material world.
I'm incline to say b) But there is this "God made it all" thing. So, he wrote the code of everything and hit run.

Ah! Thank you! This does help move the conversation along. A problem, though. A few, actually.

Are you privy to how your concept of God operates at all times? Has your concept of God specifically told you that he will operate through you and you alone?

What you were describing sounds an awful like the Deist view of a creator-type entity, such as the one Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed in (He got the universe running, then stepped aside). But then there is this whole "Jesus" thing. The very fact that the Virgin Mary... a physical entity... was inflicted with God's son would appear to me that your concept of God... in spite of being an immaterial entity... was capable of interacting with the material world.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 10:31:33 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2014, 11:14:20 PM »
Yeah-- pregnancy is a pretty clear piece of evidence that god was a separate entity interacting in the world. Can't deny a birth, although many men have tried.... :angel:

A god made someone pregnant. A common occurrence in ancient times, if you look at various different cultures. Seems that a lot of women were trying to deny something as well.... :angel:

Funny how the gods have gone all celibate since we have the scientific method, DNA testing and ultrasound to show whether the daddy was human. ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2014, 11:15:29 PM »
I will stop you there. I am playing devils advocate and saying that mathematics don't exist and you are trying to prove that it does, right? So i can't count.
Your turn again.

That's the beauty of the scientific method, Luk! I can perform the same experiment right before your very eyes! But, wait! I wouldn't expect you to trust my fingers, so I then repeat the experiment using your fingers to get the same, exact result! And should you still be a little... slow on the uptake, I or anyone else can continue this experiment until you can finally figure it out or... well, I suppose some people just refuse to accept math in to their lives.... ;)

Back to you.
Great.
God is a little like math. You can pray him in the living room listen and hear him. Change room and pray him again, listen, you'll hear him. Same result every time.
I can perform the same experiment right before your eyes. You can too, you might have trouble at first but anyone can learn how to pray God or... well, I suppose some people just refuse to accept God in to their lives.... ;)

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Your response actually made me laugh... until I realized you were not purposefully trying to be humorous. Are you appealing to yourself as an authority? Care to back that up with some credentials?
I was trying to be humorous by imitating you :s

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Is this an example from another thread, because I do not recall reading it. Anywho, then you would then have no problem accepting that, say, the Frankenstein monster exists as a physical entity as long as you trust the opinion of the person imparting this information and can provide a definition that points to his existence? I know this has been addressed by other posters, but the term that applies is "gullible".
Not every thing apply, I agree. The example of the car is the following. My parents call me and tell me that they just bought me a red car. This car is real per their testimony only.

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Are you privy to how your concept of God operates at all times? Has your concept of God specifically told you that he will operate through you and you alone?
Hmm we (believers) have access to some part of the code that non believer don't have access to.

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What you were describing sounds an awful like the Deist view of a creator-type entity, such as the one Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin believed in (He got the universe running, then stepped aside). But then there is this whole "Jesus" thing. The very fact that the Virgin Mary... a physical entity... was inflicted with God's son would appear to me that your concept of God... in spite of being an immaterial entity... was capable of interacting with the material world.
Note that it was the angel who interacted, not him. Mary being pregnant is a miracle. Miracles happen in the world every day. I think that they do because we believer can access that part of the code that non believer don't have access to.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2014, 11:48:51 PM »
Energy cannot prove to anyone that it exists nor can it explain why it cannot disappear into oblivion or behaves the way it does like change from one form to another - yet it does.

Gravity cannot prove to anyone or anything in the universe that it exists yet it holds the sun, planets, moons and asteroids in there orbits and creates universes such as the milky way etc.. For whatever reason it does this if it did not we would be annihilated or there would be little chance for life to exist.
 
Again when it comes to the desire in human mind. No one knows what it is or how it dominates one desire type over another. What we do know is that it makes a pedophile unacceptable to a civilized society and we also know that a rapist or a thief are also not acceptable for that society.

Theists such as Jesus, Buddha, Nanak, Mahavira etc have stated that these states of mind can be overcome if we train the mind we have been given - that there are laws governing consciousness trapped in matter. That our consciousness of soul is a part of God and that our mind and its desires are a tool of the negative power that has created this illusion.

Desire like gravity attracts our attention to matter and indulges our attention in it. We have to teach it moderation. We have to teach it to bring balance, that fr every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Most Humans cannot prove anything about their consciousness yet others know that they have it. God does not exists outside all of these states nor does it exists beyond it. It is a part of it - it is consciously aware of it yet devoid of a mind to exact judgement.

Judgement is a mind tool given to souls to experience but there is a problem with this tool. Judgement!
Theists say in order to combat this problem of mind that we should practice forgiveness.

Forgiveness and universal love are the only things that can take the souls back to God. Those that judge are doing the devils work of a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye. Beware of this trap when you are in this world.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2014, 12:12:29 AM »
Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.

No. No. No. No. No. Conjecture and opinion are NOT evidence when you are making extraordinary claims about "immaterial things". You haven't even come close to defining what "immaterial" IS! Your sir have a hypocritically low standard when it comes to such claims. Your personal subjective intuition (and opinion) are neither evidence nor a sufficient standard for determining is there are "immaterial things".

Furthermore, I rebutted your attempts at the classical arguments for a God in my first response - to which you conveniently ignored them.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 12:17:57 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2014, 12:16:26 AM »
Beside testimony and logic there are no other evidence for the existence of something immaterial outside your brain.
I gave you testimony.
I gave you logic proof.
What more do you want? The impossible? The thing that even yourself cannot conceive?
You want me to respond to what? I don't see any question.

Testimony alone is unreliable for separating fact from fiction with such claims and you did not give a logical proof. You gave "because I say so". Those are completely different sir, sorry. The reasons you have attempted to give have been fallacious and those fallacies have been dully noted throughout. Yet still, in hard headed fashion you persist in maintaining this delusion that you have "proved it". No, you haven't proved it. You have merely asserted that you have proved it.


Btw, your video does not prove that math exists as an independent entity (as per this OP). So you are using a false analogy (another logical fallacy). Notice how the video even points out how math "describes" things. We humans do the describing and that is because math (like logic) is a human invented LANGUAGE. It is a linguistic tool (a set of mental abilities which are the functions of physical brains doing calculations), kind of like the ability to swing a hammer. This is nowhere near your "God" assertion. So please come off it.

If you think math exists as an independent "thing" then you will need to demonstrate that TOO.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 12:33:42 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2014, 03:03:16 AM »
This immaterial thing can either
a. Interact with the material world - like you say your god can
OR
b. Cannot interact with the material world.
I'm incline to say b) But there is this "God made it all" thing. So, he wrote the code of everything and hit run.


Ah, so you believe in a Deist god and not the usual god of Christianity?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2014, 10:44:06 AM »
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

Ok I am imagining a God that can not only create a universe but one who can kill the god of Abraham.  My imagined god can make a rock so big that your god can not move it.  My imagined god also does not want worship nor to kill your god because he is all powerful and he created your god exactly as he desired. 

I guess I imagined it so it is true and separate from my mind??? 

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2014, 10:48:25 AM »
God is a little like math. You can pray him in the living room listen and hear him. Change room and pray him again, listen, you'll hear him. Same result every time.

Oh, I can completely agree with you here! I can pray, pray pray all the day long and get the same result no matter where I am. Nothing. :)

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I can perform the same experiment right before your eyes. You can too, you might have trouble at first but anyone can learn how to pray God or... well, I suppose some people just refuse to accept God in to their lives.... ;)

You see, Luk... and I do not fault you for being unaware of this, although I did post not to long ago my story how I became an atheist... I used to believe in a "God" concept. I really did. Up until the age of 14 I (excuse the pun) religiously said The Lord's Prayer every night before going to bed... followed by "God, please look after my mom, my dad, my sisters, my grandpa, my grandma...." while continuously adding more names to the list of people I wanted "God" to keep safe from harm (friends, cousins, favorite teachers) until, I kid you not, it took about two minutes of reciting names before I was finished.

Want to take a guess as to whether or not during the course of all those years my prayers got the same result every time?

Back to your "challenge". So now you are saying that your concept of "God" can be tested using the scientific method? You already know that you are setting myself up for failure. You already know that I lack belief in your concept of "God" due to your continuous failure to provide even the minutest shred of Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence myself and other atheists on the Forum has requested. And even if I was swayed by your philosophical conjectures and personal opinions, my "God" concept I would have "defined" in to being as a separate entity - separate from my human brain would then be at odds with your 'God" concept.

So, I have a better challenge. You concept of "God"... in spite of your protests that as an immaterial being He cannot be proven through the scientific method... apparently can interact with yourself and your environment. According to your previous posts, He seemingly had enough free time to prevent you from stubbing your toe, so this should be of no effort to him.

Pray to your concept of God to either directly or indirectly provide you with my home telephone number, then give me a call (I'll even give you my permission to call collect). Make sure you have a recorder handy to record the evidence of our conversation. I'll then be more than happy to have you teach me how to hear "God". :)

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God is a little like math

In the fashion that just like 2+2=5, something just doesn't add up. ;)

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I was trying to be humorous by imitating you :s

Imitation as a form of sarcasm only works if I had attempted to cite myself as the sole authority behind my opinions, which I have not. So, sah-wing an' a miss.

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This car is real per their testimony only.

Up until you were able to verify said testimony with an actual red car being produced, yes?

I have heard your testimony that there your concept of "God" separate from your brain. Will you produce Him for me to verify? Can you?

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Hmm we (believers) have access to some part of the code that non believer don't have access to.

Not what I had asked, Luk. Remember, it was you who stated "He can, but won't. He will use me instead. in regards to whether or not he is capable of directly interacting with the material world. Again,  are you privy to your concept of "God's" actions at all times to confidently say he only acts indirectlythrough you or other believers such as yourself?

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Note that it was the angel who interacted, not him. Mary being pregnant is a miracle. Miracles happen in the world every day. I think that they do because we believer can access that part of the code that non believer don't have access to.

Actually, according to Luke 1:35, it was the "Holy Ghost" that did the deed:

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And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,

That's funny, I thought Ghosts were immaterial, too. Care to explain how this "Holy Ghost" was able to directly interact with a physical being (Mary) while your concept of "God" only chooses to work indirectly through you (as you have claimed)?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2014, 10:51:06 AM »
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

Ok I am imagining a God that can not only create a universe but one who can kill the god of Abraham.  My imagined god can make a rock so big that your god can not move it.  My imagined god also does not want worship nor to kill your god because he is all powerful and he created your god exactly as he desired. 

I guess I imagined it so it is true and separate from my mind???

Keep hammering this home. He has so far completely ignored this point every time it is brought up.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2014, 10:58:37 AM »
Huh! That's nothing Epidemic! My imagined god is so great that he created your god and Abraham's god and could swallow this whole universe in a flash! He is, of course, the greatest conceivable being so has to exist in reality and not just as a thought. Sorry about that.

Over to you, Luk! You god is starting to look small!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2014, 11:11:30 AM »
Huh! That's nothing Epidemic! My imagined god is so great that he created your god and Abraham's god and could swallow this whole universe in a flash! He is, of course, the greatest conceivable being so has to exist in reality and not just as a thought. Sorry about that.

Oh... oh, yeah?? Well, did YOUR god get mentioned in a Beatles song like my fabulous Goddess Lucy Intheskywithdiamonds did? 8)

So, neener neener neener! :P
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2014, 11:14:38 AM »
Bother!  ;D
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2014, 01:39:54 PM »
Ah, so you believe in a Deist god and not the usual god of Christianity?
1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2014, 01:44:43 PM »
Ok I am imagining a God that can not only create a universe but one who can kill the god of Abraham.  My imagined god can make a rock so big that your god can not move it.  My imagined god also does not want worship nor to kill your god because he is all powerful and he created your god exactly as he desired. 

I guess I imagined it so it is true and separate from my mind???
So you are imagining a god that can win against the invincible? If it's the case then the supposedly invincible god wasn't one. He wasn't the god of Abraham. The first one you imagined is closer to the god of Abraham than the other one you imagined.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2014, 02:16:00 PM »
So you are imagining a god that can win against the invincible? If it's the case then the supposedly invincible god wasn't one. He wasn't the god of Abraham. The first one you imagined is closer to the god of Abraham than the other one you imagined.

yhwh, the god of abraham was not invincible.  For one, guys in iron chariots defeated him.  For two, he lost against a king because he sacrificed his son to another god.  For three, Marduk stomped the shit out of the hebrews and burned yhwh's house - the temple - to the ground.  And for the coup de gras, yhwh cannot be in the presence of sin.  So if you ever want a little "me time" without yhwh poking is big, jewish nose into your business, introduce a little sin.  Yhwh will flee like a vampire from garlic.

This does not even get into all the ways yhwh was a complete and total failure.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2014, 02:23:08 PM »
This does not even get into all the ways yhwh was a complete and total failure.
While this may not be complete either, it is a rather fascinating read into just how bad god is at, well, practically everything:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/an-almighty-screwup/
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2014, 02:26:45 PM »
God is a little like math. You can pray him in the living room listen and hear him. Change room and pray him again, listen, you'll hear him. Same result every time.
Oh, I can completely agree with you here! I can pray, pray pray all the day long and get the same result no matter where I am. Nothing. :)
You misread me. I said that you'll hear him...
I can perform the same experiment right before your eyes. You can too, you might have trouble at first but anyone can learn how to pray God or... well, I suppose some people just refuse to accept God in to their lives.... ;)

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Want to take a guess as to whether or not during the course of all those years my prayers got the same result every time?
God won't protect people against their will. He can protect you.
I could have said the same thing about math. "When I was 14 I tried and tried and tried, but nothing..."

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Back to your "challenge".
Which one? the one where I ask you to prove the existence of Math outside your mind?
That one? :
I don't think we have the same definition of testable.
How can you test the existence of mathematics? Or is it test mathematics? Or... I don't know what testable stand for according to mathematics. Maybe if you give me an example of how mathematics are testable I could give you one equivalent where God is testable.


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So now you are saying that your concept of "God" can be tested using the scientific method?
No I'm not. Where?

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Pray to your concept of God to either directly or indirectly provide you with my home telephone number, then give me a call (I'll even give you my permission to call collect). Make sure you have a recorder handy to record the evidence of our conversation. I'll then be more than happy to have you teach me how to hear "God". :)
No. You won't impose you will on me. I won't impose mine on you.

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Hmm we (believers) have access to some part of the code that non believer don't have access to.
Not what I had asked, Luk. Remember, it was you who stated "He can, but won't. He will use me instead. in regards to whether or not he is capable of directly interacting with the material world. Again,  are you privy to your concept of "God's" actions at all times to confidently say he only acts indirectly through you or other believers such as yourself?
Then I don't understand the question.
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That's funny, I thought Ghosts were immaterial, too. Care to explain how this "Holy Ghost" was able to directly interact with a physical being (Mary) while your concept of "God" only chooses to work indirectly through you (as you have claimed)?
Me or any believer (Mary was a believer) SO God worked through her to bring Jesus into this world. He didn't make Jesus appear out of nowhere. (even if he could've)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2014, 08:30:02 PM »
Lukvance are you going to answer the original question or not? You have brought up numbers and gravity and other things, trying to compare them to your idea of god.

That does not answer the question. Here it is: Does your god (not love, not numbers or math or gravity) exist outside of people's brains? Yes or no?

If no, then we are in agreement, because nobody has been able to demonstrate any god's existence outside of people's brains.  People can act as if there is such a being; people thought Zeus, Ra or Queztacoatl were real; they spent years constructing temples, altars, statues etc. in their honor. They even made human sacrifices, thinking that they had to do those things or suffer some terrible fate, maybe the gods would destroy the world. But when people stopped believing in them and stopped worshipping them, the world just continued on. That leads us to think that there were no such beings in any real physical sense.

If your god is different from those other gods, does he exist in a real, physical sense?  If not, in what sense does he exist outside of people's brains? Does your god interact with people's cells or brain chemicals or molecules or what? How would someone know that an invisible, immaterial, non-physical magical person was there, if he does not interact with people physically?

If you come back with something off the wall and unrelated to the main question (like how love is immaterial, or about how numbers do or do not exist) we will have to conclude that you do not want to give an honest, thoughtful answer. Because any honest, thoughtful answer would lead you somewhere you do not want to go.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2014, 10:19:55 PM »
Lukvance are you going to answer the original question or not?
Already did, on the very first post.
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You have brought up numbers and gravity and other things, trying to compare them to your idea of god.
No I did not. I answered using the example from someone else.
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That does not answer the question. Here it is: Does your god (not love, not numbers or math or gravity) exist outside of people's brains? Yes or no?
Yes.
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If your god is different from those other gods, does he exist in a real, physical sense?
No. He is immaterial.
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in what sense does he exist outside of people's brains?
I don't understand the question. Examples?
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Does your god interact with people's cells or brain chemicals or molecules or what?
Not directly. He won't change your molecules (beside the rare occasion of miracles) directly. Or maybe he would. I'm not sure.
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How would someone know that an invisible, immaterial, non-physical magical person was there, if he does not interact with people physically?
He made the universe, creating, as the real sense of the term, what we call the initial movement. He has sent people who interacted directly with him (prophets) and these people used their voice to tell the world what he wanted them to hear thus interacting with the world. He was made flesh in Jesus and interacted with thousands of people. Today there are people we call saints that can be used as examples (like mother Theresa) of how God would want us to behave. By using them he interact with us. And there are miracles.[1] And as it is said so perfectly in the catechism :
"28 So "that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability "are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all"; they are "motives of credibility" (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is "by no means a blind impulse of the mind""[2]
 1.  like the Eucharist, every day where you can physically touch God and look at him and taste him. But that's only for true believers, the OT III's of Christianity :)
 2. 156 : http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#156
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Offline eh!

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2014, 10:59:30 PM »
Evidence yaweh made the universe please .
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