Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 14895 times)

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #290 on: June 23, 2014, 05:27:05 PM »
Then you are agreeing that you do not know how the tree was moved. So cannot say that it was a god. You cannot absolutely rule out a god or a fairy with a magical tree moving ray, but there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.
Yes I agree with you.

Good so far. Now, if you can agree with that, you should also agree that, if you do not know how a person's paralyzed hand was able to move, you cannot say it was your god, either. You cannot absolutely rule out a different god or a fairy with a magical hand moving ray, but there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.

You cannot rule out a shy but powerful alien being who likes to secretly heal people at Lourdes one every 10 million times. The shy but powerful alien (SBPA) could even tell the consulting priest that it was his god who healed the paralyzed hand. So the SBPA could remain hidden and secret because that is how she rolls.

If you do not know exactly what healed the hand, or how it was done how do you know it was your god? You are only assuming it was your god, but you have no reason to rule out a SBPA, a different god or something else entirely. Right?

Are we cool?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #291 on: June 23, 2014, 06:26:54 PM »
What you say make sense, it is right too.
Not enough sense, apparently.

Quote from: Lukvance
But are you listening to me?
Of course I'm listening to you.  The problem is, you aren't listening to yourself.

A while back, I was pre-reading a story that someone wrote, and I had to tell them that the dialogue sucked; it sounded stilted and unrealistic.  I told him to try reading it to himself to see what I meant.  He took me more literally than I'd intended and actually recorded himself reading the entire story, then listened to it, and he told me that the experience really helped him understand just what was wrong with his dialogue.  So I'm going to suggest that to you - before you write posts like this, read them to yourself, aloud if need be, to see whether what you wrote is really as clear as you thought it was when you originally wrote it.

Quote from: Lukvance
I am talking about my existence. I know that you can see me, but I could argue that I was only in your imagination. I cannot be only in your head if I moved the tree that you asked me to move.
If I were truly that delusional, I could not trust other things that I seemed to perceive.  Maybe the tree was never blocking the road to begin with; maybe I just imagined that it was.  See the problem?  If the fact of my seeing you is in question, then the fact of my seeing the tree is also in question.  Therefore, you cannot use the tree being moved as evidence of your existence, because the tree could have only been in my imagination too.

Quote from: Lukvance
Let's say that for this example, I moved the tree simply by pushing it out of the way with my bare hands. You didn't see me push it away because you closed your eyes.  I come back to the car and tell you to go. All the information you have is you are here, in a car and there was a tree blocking the road that is not there anymore. You "know" that I'm here (since your senses can be fooled). Isn't the fact that the tree is not blocking you anymore after you ask me to move it for you proof enough of my existence? Don't you believe in the existence of stuff with less proof than that?
Even if I would have been willing to simply close my eyes and let you move the tree for me (which is exceedingly doubtful; I would have helped move it), I would have been able to hear you moving the tree.  And before you try to revise your example by saying you asked me to cover my ears, I would have point-blank refused someone asking me to close my eyes and cover my ears in a situation like that, no matter how well I knew them.

That aside, my point from earlier stands.  If I can be fooled into hallucinating a person offering to move a tree for me, I can be fooled into hallucinating the tree that has to be moved.  You cannot use moving the tree as proof of your existence since the only way I knew the tree was there was through those very same senses that you just got done saying could be fooled.  So your analogy fails; a miraculous healing does not prove the existence of your god or any other supernatural being when there is no other evidence of that being present where the healing happened.

Quote from: Lukvance
I know, miracles are not simple mater. It is very complicated to recognize one. It takes time and many people. You have to make sure it is not "luck" of "natural healing" or anything that it could be before claiming it is a miracle.
How many times do I have to tell you that you cannot conclude that something is a divine miracle simply by excluding all known causes for it?  Not to mention that then you're constraining your god by saying that anything that has a known cause couldn't have been done by him.  More accurately, you're engaging in the god of the gaps fallacy; there is no reason at all to conclude that a divine being could not work through something in the natural world to heal someone rather than just making it happen through unexplainable magic.

Quote from: Lukvance
It comes back to how would YOU do it? You seem to say that the system in place is not good. I can understand how it can be perceived as flawed when it is looked from afar. But then you can take a little time with your conscience and ask her what would make YOU accept the miracle? Can you trust your senses?
The second you start asking someone what it would take for them to accept something as a miracle, you've pretty much lost the argument.  Why should I tell you what it would take for me to accept a miracle?  Pray to your god if you want to know; I grant him permission to tell you that and only that.  I am an honest person; if you state what your god tells you as a result of this prayer, I will truthfully state what my most basic criteria for "is that a miracle" is.  I will not lie in any way.  You don't even have to get it perfectly right, since it would be unfair to expect you to phrase it exactly the way I would.

Quote from: Lukvance
How was the way they declared the miracle as such different to the way YOU would find acceptable?
I cannot answer this without prejudicing my challenge to you, but I can say this.  Their criteria, that there must be no known explanation for it to be considered as a possible miracle, is based on the assumption that a natural event cannot have a supernatural cause, which constrains your god to only working miracles through things that have no explanation.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #292 on: June 24, 2014, 01:18:58 PM »
If you do not know exactly what healed the hand, or how it was done how do you know it was your god? You are only assuming it was your god, but you have no reason to rule out a SBPA, a different god or something else entirely. Right?

I would accept a significantly large enough sample of healing as evidence as well.  If 10% or 20% perhaps 30% of people with medically diagnosed and relatively uncorrectable maladies all spontaniously healed upon visiting lordes.  This might mean something.  .00063% is a statistical anomaly. 

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #293 on: June 24, 2014, 01:51:59 PM »
This might mean something.  .00063% is a statistical anomaly.

It is not even that.  It is statistically irrelevant.
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #294 on: June 24, 2014, 04:04:57 PM »
I've been away for a month and still you are arguing irrationally. Go figure.
That is not my argument. I'm arguing my existence, not the fact that the tree was pushed naturally or not.

Then (as I've noted before) you are drawing a false analogy. We have lots of examples of people moving trees. And we can demonstrate them now. WE DO NOT have any examples of alleged deities doing things. What you have is conjecture (i.e. claims) and those are not the same. So please correct the fallacy. You cannot compare the two since (as I noted before) you do not have a "god" to present right now to anyone.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 04:07:09 PM by median »
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #295 on: June 24, 2014, 04:11:21 PM »
This might mean something.  .00063% is a statistical anomaly.

It is not even that.  It is statistically irrelevant.

It's like the average American yearly salary as a percentage of the money Mitt Romney has spent to buy, train and maintain his dancing dressage horse-- I mean his wife's service animal. A rounding error.[1]
 1. Not including of course the $70,000 business tax deduction they got for having the animal. That whole thing still galls me, as you may have guessed. And some people actually voted for him.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #296 on: June 24, 2014, 04:27:07 PM »
I don't make near 70K a year.....no wonder we pay 50% of our income in taxes and fees
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #297 on: June 24, 2014, 05:11:51 PM »
I don't make near 70K a year.....no wonder we pay 50% of our income in taxes and fees

The US average household annual income is $52,000 IIRC. And many households have more than one person working. The Romneys got a tax break of over $70,000 just for having the horse.

Oh, yeah, Canadians, Europeans and Japanese pay much higher taxes than we in the US. We just complain louder. And we get angry when the government tries to reduce our costs by getting everyone some decent health insurance.

Sometimes I think my fellow citizens are like toddlers who kick and scream when their parents try to put their shoes on before they go outside in the snow....we would rather have frozen feet and pay far more in pain and suffering than have anyone tell us what to do.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #298 on: June 24, 2014, 05:16:34 PM »
The US average household annual income is $52,000 IIRC.

How much of that goes away after taxes?
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #299 on: June 24, 2014, 06:08:34 PM »
I don't make near 70K a year.....no wonder we pay 50% of our income in taxes and fees

The US average household annual income is $52,000 IIRC. And many households have more than one person working. The Romneys got a tax break of over $70,000 just for having the horse.

Oh, yeah, Canadians, Europeans and Japanese pay much higher taxes than we in the US. We just complain louder. And we get angry when the government tries to reduce our costs by getting everyone some decent health insurance.

Sometimes I think my fellow citizens are like toddlers who kick and scream when their parents try to put their shoes on before they go outside in the snow....we would rather have frozen feet and pay far more in pain and suffering than have anyone tell us what to do.
I am lucky enough to live near a border....gas in Vancouver was 6.80 a gallon for premium 15 minutes away in Bellingham 4.11 a gallon. .....one fill a week in the states saves me $1500.00 a year,,,,,that's a lot of cash IN MY POCKET
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #300 on: June 24, 2014, 06:29:10 PM »
The US average household annual income is $52,000 IIRC.

How much of that goes away after taxes?

I used the google and looked it up. If the person is single and has no kids and takes only the standard deduction, they will pay tax on $42,650. That would be $6843.75, or about 17%.

The US tax brackets range from 10% at the lowest incomes to to 40% for the highest earning gazillionaires. Income tax is only paid on income, and many rich people don't even have much income, like from working at a job. They have trusts and dividends and sh!t, with even lower tax rates than 40%.

One reason why we have too little money to run social programs to care for the poor and sick, is that, as the population has aged and needs more services, the taxes on the top incomes have dropped from a high of 91% (from WWII until 1964, when the US economy was zoomin' hot)  to the 40% millionaires pay today[1] (with people at the lower end skipping meals to pay for medications, and living in their cars).

http://www.taxact.com/tools/tax-bracket-calculator.asp

What is depressing, from a commie mommy point of view, is to read the many comments from waitresses and retail clerks arguing that taxing the wealthiest people at higher rates is "unfair". If the rich have to pay higher taxes, they won't have any incentive to work hard. As if the people who own this country actually work as hard as a single mom who leaves her store clerk or bus driver job and then does a call center shift, plus sells cosmetics on the side.

Plus, the sales and gas taxes have to go up to make up for the revenue lost by the rich not paying enough. Those taxes hit the lower income folks the hardest, because they generally spend everything they earn.

When the poor are deluded enough to defend the rich-- who are robbing poor children's futures to leverage a third vacation home-- the rich don't need to do anything but sit back, count their money and laugh.
 1. and with the tax breaks for dressage horses and other loopholes, many don't even pay that much
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #301 on: June 24, 2014, 06:32:46 PM »
I don't make near 70K a year.....no wonder we pay 50% of our income in taxes and fees

The US average household annual income is $52,000 IIRC. And many households have more than one person working. The Romneys got a tax break of over $70,000 just for having the horse.

Oh, yeah, Canadians, Europeans and Japanese pay much higher taxes than we in the US. We just complain louder. And we get angry when the government tries to reduce our costs by getting everyone some decent health insurance.

Sometimes I think my fellow citizens are like toddlers who kick and scream when their parents try to put their shoes on before they go outside in the snow....we would rather have frozen feet and pay far more in pain and suffering than have anyone tell us what to do.
I am lucky enough to live near a border....gas in Vancouver was 6.80 a gallon for premium 15 minutes away in Bellingham 4.11 a gallon. .....one fill a week in the states saves me $1500.00 a year,,,,,that's a lot of cash IN MY POCKET

We in the US live in a fantasy land in some ways. You Canadians and Europeans would love to pay the tax rates and gas prices that we the think are way too high. And people in the US want to impeach the president over a health care program that would be too limited to ever be accepted in Canada or Europe.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #302 on: June 25, 2014, 02:11:00 PM »
Good so far. Now, if you can agree with that, you should also agree that, if you do not know how a person's paralyzed hand was able to move, you cannot say it was your god, either.
Why? How would YOU know it is not? How would YOU know if it is? I know how to proceed if I want to make sure it is from God and not from any other thing. How would you proceed?

Quote
there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.
I agree. Even if I disagree that miracles are magic stuff or not natural.

Quote
You cannot rule out a shy but powerful alien being who likes to secretly heal people at Lourdes one every 10 million times. The shy but powerful alien (SBPA) could even tell the consulting priest that it was his god who healed the paralyzed hand. So the SBPA could remain hidden and secret because that is how she rolls.
Why can't you rule that out? I mean, you are able to rule out that the world doesn't evolve around you (every one other than you is an actor), no?

Quote
If you do not know exactly what healed the hand, or how it was done how do you know it was your god? You are only assuming it was your god, but you have no reason to rule out a SBPA, a different god or something else entirely. Right?
Those are big *if*. In the cases of miracles we know what healed the hand. It was God's "hand". We (humans) ruled out any other possible answer.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #303 on: June 25, 2014, 02:52:34 PM »
Luk,tell us how you would determine your conclusion on the hand without evidence? I can easily determine Satan fixed the "hand" if I don't need to supply more than a feeling he did.
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #304 on: June 25, 2014, 02:58:18 PM »
Good so far. Now, if you can agree with that, you should also agree that, if you do not know how a person's paralyzed hand was able to move, you cannot say it was your god, either.
Why? How would YOU know it is not? How would YOU know if it is? I know how to proceed if I want to make sure it is from God and not from any other thing. How would you proceed?

Quote
there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.
I agree. Even if I disagree that miracles are magic stuff or not natural.

Quote
You cannot rule out a shy but powerful alien being who likes to secretly heal people at Lourdes one every 10 million times. The shy but powerful alien (SBPA) could even tell the consulting priest that it was his god who healed the paralyzed hand. So the SBPA could remain hidden and secret because that is how she rolls.
Why can't you rule that out? I mean, you are able to rule out that the world doesn't evolve around you (every one other than you is an actor), no?

Quote
If you do not know exactly what healed the hand, or how it was done how do you know it was your god? You are only assuming it was your god, but you have no reason to rule out a SBPA, a different god or something else entirely. Right?
Those are big *if*. In the cases of miracles we know what healed the hand. It was God's "hand". We (humans) ruled out any other possible answer.

This is one big fat example of you using the fallacy of Shifting the Burden of Proof. Since you are making the supernatural claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it was a "miracle". Furthermore, you're in a real bind with such attempts because merely CLAIMING something was "a miracle" does not explaining anything. It is a placeholder for your own ignorance - since you have not presented any mechanism that can be independently demonstrated as to how such a "healing" was carried out. Furthermore, just because you can ASSERT that your alleged invisible god thing was the cause, doesn't mean that it is. That's just an assertion with no backing (just like every religion tries). You would first need to rule out ALL other possibilities (by first establishing a reliable method for distinguishing between a "miracle" and a non-miracle). Your saying it is a miracle doesn't make it so - and if there is no current explanation of a given phenomena your assertion doesn't win by default. Instead, you should be admitting ignorance on the subject (agnosticism) instead of deploying your confirmation bias. But you aren't willing to do that, are you? Because of your theological pre-commitments you feel that you must assert that your god must have done it. And yet, if other religions tried such tactics (as a method for asserting their theology was the correct one) you wouldn't accept that their religion was the true one, would you? So you are practicing hypocrisy (a double standard of evidence) and that is the problem.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 03:35:34 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #305 on: June 25, 2014, 03:46:55 PM »
Why? How would YOU know it is not? How would YOU know if it is?
Exactly, she wouldn't know how to tell if it was your god or not.  What you keep not understanding is that this applies to you as well.

Quote from: Lukvance
I know how to proceed if I want to make sure it is from God and not from any other thing. How would you proceed?
No, what you have is a process that you think identifies something as coming from your god, but it does no such thing.  First off, you're ruling out anything that seems to have a perfectly natural cause as being definitely not caused by your god.  Your criteria for something possibly being a miracle is whether someone can explain how it happened, but this is ultimately substituting ignorance for knowledge.  Not to mention that you are limiting how your god might act in the world.  Who are you to declare that your god can't work a miracle through perfectly natural causes?

And second, once you have confirmed that there is no known explanation, you then leave the decision up to a priest, as if he is the final authority who decides once and for whether it is or isn't.  Never mind that this is simply an extension of the point I just mentioned.  Who is this priest to declare what is and isn't a miracle?  Why can't your god speak for himself and simply make it known that such-and-such was healed through his power, rather than leaving it up to some human to declare it for him?

Quote from: Lukvance
Why can't you rule that out? I mean, you are able to rule out that the world doesn't evolve around you (every one other than you is an actor), no?
I think you mean 'revolve'.  Anyway, you can't rule anything out without positive knowledge.  It's why science is structured the way it is; we can't tell if something is correct, for sure and certain; we can only tell that it is incorrect.

One of the problems with your church's process of vetting miracles is that, as it's based on scientists not being able to currently explain how someone was healed, it's simply an assumption that scientists will not ever be able to explain it and thus it will remain a miracle.  So what happens to the 'miracle' if a scientist demonstrates in a decade or two exactly how someone with, say, a paralyzed hand can spontaneously recover from it?

Quote from: Lukvance
Those are big *if*. In the cases of miracles we know what healed the hand. It was God's "hand". We (humans) ruled out any other possible answer.
No, you ruled out any known explanation, so you can't conclude that it was your god, because there are many possible but unknown explanations out there.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #306 on: June 25, 2014, 04:24:49 PM »
One of the problems with your church's process of vetting miracles is that, as it's based on scientists not being able to currently explain how someone was healed, it's simply an assumption that scientists will not ever be able to explain it and thus it will remain a miracle.

Lukvance, another problem with the church's process of vetting miracles is that, at least according to skeptic54768, the church leaders are taking their marching orders from Satan.  I would assume that would make any conclusions you draw from the church to be somewhat less than trustworthy, no?

Lukvance, if you disagree with skeptic54768 regarding the Catholic church and it being run by Satan, I invite you to participate in the following thread:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26945.0.html

Edit: Clearly indicated who I am actually talking to with this post
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 04:31:13 PM by jdawg70 »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #307 on: June 25, 2014, 04:28:08 PM »
There's a limit to the number of discussions I can effectively take part in at the same time before I start losing track of things.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #308 on: June 25, 2014, 04:29:00 PM »
There's a limit to the number of discussions I can effectively take part in at the same time before I start losing track of things.

I think he was referring to Lukvance.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #309 on: June 25, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »
There's a limit to the number of discussions I can effectively take part in at the same time before I start losing track of things.

There's a limit to the number of discussions I can effectively take part in at the same time before I start losing track of things.

I think he was referring to Lukvance.

One Above All is correct.

Apologies for being unclear.

Lukvance, that invite to participate in the thread is for you.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #310 on: June 25, 2014, 04:49:40 PM »
The second you start asking someone what it would take for them to accept something as a miracle, you've pretty much lost the argument.  Why should I tell you what it would take for me to accept a miracle?  Pray to your god if you want to know; I grant him permission to tell you that and only that.  I am an honest person; if you state what your god tells you as a result of this prayer, I will truthfully state what my most basic criteria for "is that a miracle" is.  I will not lie in any way.  You don't even have to get it perfectly right, since it would be unfair to expect you to phrase it exactly the way I would.
I don't think an argument is lost when someone ask the opposite party about their view on the subject.
I believe that nothing will convince you that a miracle is God's action as long as you are not involved in one.
I know of things that will convince me that miracles are not God's actions in this world. (like if the consequences of said miracle are "bad")
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #311 on: June 25, 2014, 04:52:47 PM »
Then (as I've noted before) you are drawing a false analogy. We have lots of examples of people moving trees. And we can demonstrate them now. WE DO NOT have any examples of alleged deities doing things.
We have miracles. Lots of them.

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What you have is conjecture (i.e. claims) and those are not the same. So please correct the fallacy. You cannot compare the two since (as I noted before) you do not have a "god" to present right now to anyone.
Alright you think it is conjecture. Tell me how this is conjecture and how the finding of the Higgs Boson isn't conjecture?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #312 on: June 25, 2014, 04:55:43 PM »
Luk,tell us how you would determine your conclusion on the hand without evidence? I can easily determine Satan fixed the "hand" if I don't need to supply more than a feeling he did.
I wouldn't. Fortunately, there is plenty evidence that it is an act from God.
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #313 on: June 25, 2014, 04:58:43 PM »
Luk,tell us how you would determine your conclusion on the hand without evidence? I can easily determine Satan fixed the "hand" if I don't need to supply more than a feeling he did.
I wouldn't. Fortunately, there is plenty evidence that it is an act from God.
because I say so,is not evidence......as I could attribute your " miracle" to Satan and make that assertion without evidence
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #314 on: June 25, 2014, 05:10:37 PM »
This is one big fat example of you using the fallacy of Shifting the Burden of Proof. Since you are making the supernatural claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it was a "miracle". Furthermore, you're in a real bind with such attempts because merely CLAIMING something was "a miracle" does not explaining anything. It is a placeholder for your own ignorance - since you have not presented any mechanism that can be independently demonstrated as to how such a "healing" was carried out. Furthermore, just because you can ASSERT that your alleged invisible god thing was the cause, doesn't mean that it is. That's just an assertion with no backing (just like every religion tries). You would first need to rule out ALL other possibilities (by first establishing a reliable method for distinguishing between a "miracle" and a non-miracle). Your saying it is a miracle doesn't make it so - and if there is no current explanation of a given phenomena your assertion doesn't win by default. Instead, you should be admitting ignorance on the subject (agnosticism) instead of deploying your confirmation bias. But you aren't willing to do that, are you? Because of your theological pre-commitments you feel that you must assert that your god must have done it. And yet, if other religions tried such tactics (as a method for asserting their theology was the correct one) you wouldn't accept that their religion was the true one, would you? So you are practicing hypocrisy (a double standard of evidence) and that is the problem.
You should read about the Devil's advocate he is the guy used also in case of a miracle. There is a court who will judge the event to be a miracle or not. The burden of proof is not for me to wear it has already been worn by the advocate defending the miracle case.
What you all seem to miss is that I am not the one claiming these are miracle. I am only reporting them to you. All your counter arguments have already been submitted and dismissed by professional people on the matter.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #315 on: June 25, 2014, 05:12:21 PM »
Then (as I've noted before) you are drawing a false analogy. We have lots of examples of people moving trees. And we can demonstrate them now. WE DO NOT have any examples of alleged deities doing things.
We have miracles. Lots of them.

Quote
What you have is conjecture (i.e. claims) and those are not the same. So please correct the fallacy. You cannot compare the two since (as I noted before) you do not have a "god" to present right now to anyone.
Alright you think it is conjecture. Tell me how this is conjecture and how the finding of the Higgs Boson isn't conjecture?

Hmm.. Perhaps you might want to rethink the latter?
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113177094/higgs-boson-discovery-new-evidence-062414/

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #316 on: June 25, 2014, 05:24:23 PM »
Why? How would YOU know it is not? How would YOU know if it is?
Exactly, she wouldn't know how to tell if it was your god or not.  What you keep not understanding is that this applies to you as well.
*I* know how. "My" answers to these question are the one you are trying to argue with.

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Who are you to declare that your god can't work a miracle through perfectly natural causes?
Miracle are not unnatural.

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Who is this priest to declare what is and isn't a miracle?  Why can't your god speak for himself and simply make it known that such-and-such was healed through his power, rather than leaving it up to some human to declare it for him?
HOW exactly do you expect him to MAKE IT KNOWN? Will it change your belief?
There is a jury and a trial for each miracle. When the verdict is out the priest of the place where the miracle occurred make the verdict public.

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One of the problems with your church's process of vetting miracles is that, as it's based on scientists not being able to currently explain how someone was healed, it's simply an assumption that scientists will not ever be able to explain it and thus it will remain a miracle.  So what happens to the 'miracle' if a scientist demonstrates in a decade or two exactly how someone with, say, a paralyzed hand can spontaneously recover from it?
It will simply not be a miracle anymore. Until then, it is. This is how the scientific method works too. It proves something is true until proven otherwise.
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #317 on: June 25, 2014, 05:30:46 PM »

You should read about the Devil's advocate he is the guy used also in case of a miracle. There is a court who will judge the event to be a miracle or not. The burden of proof is not for me to wear it has already been worn by the advocate defending the miracle case.
What you all seem to miss is that I am not the one claiming these are miracle. I am only reporting them to you. All your counter arguments have already been submitted and dismissed by professional people on the matter.

Now you're just being dishonest because YOU DO in fact believe these cases are "miracles". Yet you are immediately switching to using fallacious arguments (in this case the fallacy of Argument from Authority) when you have not demonstrated that these people are "authorities" on "miracles". It is just hear-say all the way down. If you think one (or more) of these alleged cases is "a miracle" then please demonstrate the actual evidence and argument that was presented to these alleged "judges" by which they somehow determined an actual "miracle" occurred. I will address your false analogy in the next post.

EDIT: Your "Devil's Advocate" link doesn't provide any information as to how this alleged "expert" can reliably determine a miracle from a non-miracle. Since arguments stand or fall on their own merits (not who makes them) it doesn't matter to me if this person claims to be an "expert" or whether you believe it. What matters are the evidences and arguments to be evaluated in the light of reason. Thus far, your continual use of logically fallacious arguments gives justification for disbelieving your claims.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 06:01:04 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #318 on: June 25, 2014, 05:36:48 PM »
Hmm.. Perhaps you might want to rethink the latter?
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113177094/higgs-boson-discovery-new-evidence-062414/
What? you mean that you never heard of miracles still occurring today? That some more "proof" of the existence of miracles are discovered everyday!?
I am saying in analogy : Miracle = Higgs Boson.
Proof of Higgs Boson = Proof of miracles. (I don't know how to properly say that in English, I want to make sure that there is no ambiguity miracles and higgs bosons are 2 completely different things who share similar attributes.)
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