Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 57887 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1305 on: September 05, 2014, 02:54:12 PM »
The point is this:  people who believe that extraordinary events are miracles caused by supernatural beings have a lot of heavy lifting to do, which they have not done. They have to demonstrate, with objective evidence that any observer can accept, that:

a) there are supernatural beings (this one is the biggie)

b) these beings interact with humans on earth

c) this interaction leaves physical signs or evidence that can only be attributed to that particular being or beings

d) all other possible causes (other supernatural beings, aliens, strange new phenomena) have been eliminated from the event under examination

Only when all the above criteria are met to the satisfaction of any objective observer (not people who already accept miracles) could we begin to examine a particular event as a miracle.

So called miracle healings have not even gotten past a).
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1306 on: September 06, 2014, 05:33:59 AM »
I don't know how much I can stress the fact that the clues received from miracles all pointed toward God.
No... no they do not. All they say is "We don't know how it happened."

If you add anything at all to this, it is wishful thinking. You can say "It is proof of God, I can say, "It was because he ate some fish 4 weeks earlier." and we both have the same amount of proof - we are just saying it.

And why MUST it be your god?

Quote
Are you saying that because we can reproduce something it must be how the real thing has been made?
No. I am saying that, in this case, we have an answer - we have explained a miracle.
Quote
This is your argument? Or maybe there is something else that I am missing here.
Yes, there is something you are missing, and you have been missing it since the beginning of this thread. You are missing a grasp on reality.

(i) You lack critical thinking skills;
(ii) you think that believing in something makes it real,
(iii) you think that God is Catholic, but Jesus told you that organised religion was a scam and impious. M't:6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Lu:12:3: Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 05:41:44 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1307 on: September 06, 2014, 08:51:59 PM »
Definitely lacking critical thinking skills. No way to tell if the "clues" were left by the Catholic god, or a very clever alien or other being who knows how to imitate the clues that people think would be left by a Catholic god. Any clues that a Catholic god leaves for people to find, a powerful alien or a different god could also leave, right?

Assuming that is not the case, what would distinguish the Catholic god's clues from clues planted with the intention of fooling people into thinking it was the Catholic god? It would be impossible, because human being do not have perfect knowledge, and the powerful aliens or gods are smarter than we are.

If some alien being had the power to imitate my next door neighbor exactly in the perfect way to fool me, what clues would tell me it was not him? I cannot say that "I would just know it was not really him." If an alien could imitate the Catholic god exactly in the perfect way to fool a believer, what clues would tell you that it was not him?
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1308 on: September 08, 2014, 07:04:24 PM »
You should learn that there are physical evidences for miracles.
I reject that so-called evidence.  I reject it absolutely, and I reject the people and the organizations that are deceiving others into thinking that it ever -was- evidence. 
Yep. I understood that already. But aren't you rejecting them without any reason? Beside the fact that "you don't want to"? :)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1309 on: September 08, 2014, 08:09:33 PM »
ONCE AGAIN...STOP USING THIS FALLACIOUS ARGUMENT!

P1 - God interacts with the world
C - Therefore God exists outside your body
There is nothing wrong with
1. God interacts with the world
2. Therefore God exists outside your body
If you want me to understand were you made your mistake or were I did not explain myself correctly on that matter, please use examples.
Something that interacts with the world cannot only exist only in our mind.

-You still have not presented a sound definition of what "God" is made of (i.e. - what God actually IS - and what 'thing' is doing the interacting)
-You still have not demonstrated that this alleged "thing" is interacting with anything (for that you would need to actually present the thing!
I presented a definition of God. You dislike the definitions given by the dictionary as they are not enough (or not logic).
I will let you present a definition that is enough for you. Maybe, who knows you could submit it to the dictionary and they will add it to the others.
*I* did not demonstrate any interaction because it is the miracle that demonstrate the interaction and the theologians that discovered the clues that led to the conclusion that God was responsible for the event. They did the work for me. I'm just reporting them to you.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1310 on: September 08, 2014, 09:26:48 PM »

ONCE AGAIN...STOP USING THIS FALLACIOUS ARGUMENT!

P1 - God interacts with the world
C - Therefore God exists outside your body

There is nothing wrong with
1. God interacts with the world
2. Therefore God exists outside your body

Wow. Just... wow. You truly are a hopeless case luk.

I invite forum members to cease trying to reason with luk in this thread as he will never, ever get off this merry-go-round of circular claims.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"Ray, when someone asks you, if you're a god, you say YES!!"

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1311 on: September 08, 2014, 09:54:32 PM »
You should learn that there are physical evidences for miracles.
I reject that so-called evidence.  I reject it absolutely, and I reject the people and the organizations that are deceiving others into thinking that it ever -was- evidence. 
Yep. I understood that already. But aren't you rejecting them without any reason? Beside the fact that "you don't want to"? :)

Luk, here is a scenario for you.

Imagine a brother and sister on Christmas morning... One of the children is 10 and no longer believes in Santa Claus.  The other is 5 and still believes very strongly in Santa Claus. 

On Christmas morning, they both come down stairs to find presents under the tree.  Which one of them sees the presents as evidence that Santa Claus exists, and which one does not?  If one child does not see it as evidence that Santa Claus exists, is it because he doesn't want to believe in Santa, or are there other reasons? 

Are presents under the tree direct evidence that Santa Claus exists, or is their presence simply evidence that somehow during the night, presents were placed under the tree? 

Lastly, if the parents of the 2 children vigorously deny that they were the ones who placed the presents under the tree, does that mean a supernatural explanation is the most likely explanation?  Of higher likelihood than say... the neighbors?  Or the grandparents?  Or that the parents are simply lying? 


 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline eh!

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1312 on: September 08, 2014, 09:57:22 PM »
hmmm this is a tough one, if not santa then who?


the presents did not get their by themselves, most puzzling,  - mebe we need to call in Vatican experts.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1313 on: September 08, 2014, 10:01:45 PM »
There is nothing wrong with
1. God interacts with the world
2. Therefore God exists outside your body
I think it's evident by now that Lukvance, at least, is convinced by his argument, because he believes his god's existence is so self-evident that he doesn't even need to show evidence of it.  It's going to take more than just merely stating that it's fallacious, or even stating the specific fallacies he's using.  If that was going to work, it would have accomplished something by now.

Quote from: Lukvance
If you want me to understand were you made your mistake or were I did not explain myself correctly on that matter, please use examples.
Do you even have the slightest inkling of how conceited you come across in this post?  Since you have apparently not figured it out yet, let me spell it out in plain English.  You have as yet not actually convinced anyone that you are correct.  It is not a matter of other people being 'mistaken' or you "not explaining yourself correctly", it is a matter that you have so far completely failed to provide convincing evidence that your god actually does interact with the world.  Claiming that your god is responsible for miracles because your church has theological arguments to that effect does not work because it is not evidence.  It is simply logic and philosophy, and thus is no more convincing than, say, Plato's arguments in favor of "eternal, unchanging forms".

It doesn't matter how many times you present those theological arguments, or how many times you argue that they mean your god acts in the world.  You have no actual evidence which shows that your god exists, let alone that he does anything in the world, and no amount of logic or philosophy can substitute for that evidence.

Quote from: Lukvance
Something that interacts with the world cannot only exist only in our mind.
This is true, but you as yet have not shown evidence that your god actually interacts with the world.  To put it bluntly, everything that your church attributes as a miracle to your god could easily be due to other things besides your god.  This is why you need evidence that your god is responsible, which means you need evidence that your god exists.  Until such time as you demonstrate the latter, claiming the former is a non-starter.  It will continue being a non-starter no matter how many times you claim otherwise.

Quote from: Lukvance
I presented a definition of God. You dislike the definitions given by the dictionary as they are not enough (or not logic).
A definition does not prove that something exists in the real world.  For example, anti-gravity is defined as a force that counters gravity...yet we have never observed such a force and as of yet have no reason to conclude that it exists at all.  In order to show that it exists, someone would have to provide evidence that could be tested.  The same applies to your god; until such time as someone provides evidence that can be tested that shows that your god exists, providing a definition is not useful except, possibly, as a thought experiment.

Quote from: Lukvance
I will let you present a definition that is enough for you. Maybe, who knows you could submit it to the dictionary and they will add it to the others.
Definitions do not prove that things exist in the real world.  They never have and they never will.  Therefore, it does not matter who comes up with what definition.  What matters is whether someone can show evidence that shows that something exists.

Quote from: Lukvance
*I* did not demonstrate any interaction because it is the miracle that demonstrate the interaction and the theologians that discovered the clues that led to the conclusion that God was responsible for the event. They did the work for me. I'm just reporting them to you.
The 'miracle' (more accurately, unexplained event) demonstrates no interaction; therefore theological arguments about it are nothing but conjecture.  That is why your argument continues to fail, and why there has been no forward progress for the past several months.  Until you recognize this, we'll remain on dead center.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1314 on: September 08, 2014, 10:05:05 PM »
Luk, here is a scenario for you.

Imagine a brother and sister on Christmas morning... One of the children is 10 and no longer believes in Santa Claus.  The other is 5 and still believes very strongly in Santa Claus. 

On Christmas morning, they both come down stairs to find presents under the tree.  Which one of them sees the presents as evidence that Santa Claus exists, and which one does not?  If one child does not see it as evidence that Santa Claus exists, is it because he doesn't want to believe in Santa, or are there other reasons? 

Are presents under the tree direct evidence that Santa Claus exists, or is their presence simply evidence that somehow during the night, presents were placed under the tree? 

Lastly, if the parents of the 2 children vigorously deny that they were the ones who placed the presents under the tree, does that mean a supernatural explanation is the most likely explanation?  Of higher likelihood than say... the neighbors?  Or the grandparents?  Or that the parents are simply lying?
I like your scenario. I agree with you that in this case the parents hid something from the child.
The similarity between miracles and Santa's presents is that there are witnesses to the miracles. In one case the witnesses will say "it's the parents" or "it's the neighbors " and never say truthfully "they appeared before me"
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1315 on: September 08, 2014, 10:28:31 PM »
I like your scenario. I agree with you that in this case the parents hid something from the child.

Yes, but for the child who truly believed in Santa, the presents under the tree is evidence that Santa is real.  Do you see that?  Do you see that this is exactly what you are doing with God and the whole miracle thing?  You believe in God very seriously, so things like 'miracles' are evidence that your God exists... TO YOU... but not to other people.  To other people, other explanations are vastly more likely. 

The similarity between miracles and Santa's presents is that there are witnesses to the miracles.

OK.  Lets follow that.  Let's say, in the scenario above, that the parents (just like all the parents who want their children to believe in Santa) told the 5 year old that they SAW Santa putting the presents under the tree.  Now... does that seriously change the situation for you?  What would be their motivation behind lying to their children?  Perhaps because they like that their children believe in Santa? 

How is that different from the witnesses to miracles?  What is more likely... an invisible, all powerful sky person came down and impacted someone's life simply because they asked it to, or that a witness lied about it?  All you have to ask is whether or not people lie and whether or not there is motivation to lie.  The answer to both is yes.  And I'm not even saying that every miracle claim is just a lie, but a good many of them probably are, right?  There might really be situations that are hard to explain, but that doesn't mean we should assume an invisible man in a fat suit, flying around with 8 reindeer and a sleigh (or an invisible man in the sky) is the best possible explanation.  When you really don't know, it's OK to say you don't know. 

In my Santa Claus example above... and this is an important question for you to think about... what evidence would it take for you to believe that it really WAS Santa Claus who put the presents under the tree.  Would the parent testimony do it?  Would the presents under the tree do it?  If the answer is no, then please understand that this is where we are with your claim about God and miracles.   The quality of evidence to back up the claim that Santa put the presents under the tree is the same quality of evidence that we are missing from your Vatican miracle claim.  You have to first assume God is real before ANY of them are compelling.  Just like the 5 year old who sees the presents under the tree. 

In one case the witnesses will say "it's the parents" or "it's the neighbors " and never say truthfully "they appeared before me"

Is witness testimony all it takes to convince you here?  Would it be enough in the Santa case?  I doubt it.  Would it be enough if you already believed in Santa?  Yes, it would. 

You think the Vatican is a trustworthy source for testimony?  Seriously?  They have the most to gain by verifying 'miracles' don't they?  Yes, they do.  It would be like a drug company selling a cure for cancer that they made, and the only research provided on its effectiveness comes from research done by the same company.  In short, no thanks.  You don't buy that drug.  You get independent research teams to look at it. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1316 on: September 08, 2014, 10:30:18 PM »
Actually, Lukvance, I'll agree that there's a similarity between the two scenarios.  However, the similarity is not that there are witnesses, as nobody 'witnessed' the presents appearing except the person who put them there.  The similarity is that in both cases, people believe that someone who has not been shown to exist is responsible for what happened; Santa Claus dropping off the gifts, and God granting a miracle.  You are like the child who believes in Santa Claus, and no matter what arguments others put forward, you still insist that it must be Santa Claus, because your 'parents' have a really good argument that, to you, proves that Santa Claus exists.  And, of course, because Santa Claus is defined.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1317 on: September 09, 2014, 12:02:21 AM »
I invite forum members to cease trying to reason with luk in this thread as he will never, ever get off this merry-go-round of circular claims.
As polite as Lukvance is, he's currently unteachable. The amount of effort jaimehlers and others have been putting into their replies still remain an exercise in futility. Luk's "magic of feelings" arguments will not be penetrated by deductive reasoning.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline natlegend

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1318 on: September 09, 2014, 12:39:45 AM »
I invite forum members to cease trying to reason with luk in this thread as he will never, ever get off this merry-go-round of circular claims.
As polite as Lukvance is, he's currently unteachable. The amount of effort jaimehlers and others have been putting into their replies still remain an exercise in futility. Luk's "magic of feelings" arguments will not be penetrated by deductive reasoning.

We are agreed then. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that this train wreck will continue anyway.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1319 on: September 09, 2014, 01:26:26 PM »
Definitely a train wreck.

He thinks we won't accept his miracles claims as evidence of god's existence because we don't want there to be a god:?

We are just a bunch of nasty old narrow-minded grumps who don't believe in magical fairies, leprechauns and unicorns, when they are really there. Because people like Lukvance say so.

I don't even think Lukvance reads our responses before he posts his same old same old. We may as well give up.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1320 on: September 09, 2014, 01:59:52 PM »
After 1,319 posts, it is deemed that the question, “Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?” has been answered.

The answer is “No.”

I am therefore closing the topic.

Lukvance has maintained throughout that “God is like “love” and love exists.

Lukvance has also admitted that love exists only in our minds.

Therefore, we conclude that God exists only in the mind.  We thank Lukvance for his help. It has been an interesting, and emotionally challenging, time.

WWGHA thanks each and every contributor to the debate, but especially Lukvance, who now realises that just because he believes (i) something is real and true does not mean that it is real and true and (ii) if a panel of carefully selected doctors does not know how a remission of an illness occurred, this does not necessarily mean that Yahweh, the tribal god of the Israelites, had a hand in that cure and, more importantly, we have shown that God is all in the mind.

Whether this is a good thing or not, is still to be answered.

GB Mod

« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 08:36:29 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”