Author Topic: Speaking from my Christian Past  (Read 171 times)

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Speaking from my Christian Past
« on: Yesterday at 09:03:39 AM »
I was on another forum in a discussion and simply related experiences from my Christian past.  True, honest experiences that led me to where I am today, but I didn't share "where I am today" as an agnostic or atheist, because then people just shut down and don't listen to what you have to say.

I'd posted in an article asking, if Jesus is real and he changes us, why are Christians so depressed?

Everything I'm saying here is 100% true from personal experiences in church as my time alive as a Christian which has long exceeded my time as a non-believer... I'm just able to say it out loud now, so, even though I didn't introduce myself "Hi I don't believe anymore, ignore me" I'm sharing honest feelings and experience in the post below.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2ejglr/ask_pastor_matt_if_christianity_is_true_why_are/

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YRM_DM 3 points 17 hours ago

I think people expect to accept Jesus in their lives and hearts and be reborn as promised. They hope to have a real, personal relationship with a being that tells them things that their own mind can't possibly tell them.

When this stuff doesn't happen, they are told that the relationship is one of a lifetime of work and struggle to walk and grow in faith.

Over time, as good things happen in your life, credit for all success is given only to God, but blame for all failure is cast fully on the believer.

Succeed at resisting a temptation? Praise Jesus! Fail at resisting a temptation? Forgive me Lord!

God becomes like a reverse Spider Man with all of the power, but zero responsibility for any evil or failure or suffering... though he gets credit for any good or success or positive health.

Many Christians admit to being "nothing" without God.

This lack of actual change when "saved" coupled with everything I said above is discouraging.

Prayers are answered through things like hairs on the back of your neck standing up, or a song that comes on the radio, or a kind word from a friend. But prayers are never answered in a clear way like they were for Paul... or for Elijah when he prayed that God would strike his altar with fire from heaven, and God did.

There's no voice in our head telling us anything we don't already know.

If a non-believer asks me to use my relationship with God to answer any questions about them, I can't. There's no answer.

Everything must be taken on faith.

This process is exhausting for many people and I believe it can lead to depression. I know it's not always appreciated to speak honestly about our faith experiences but, I think this genuinely has something to do with the issue described in the article.


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[–]jayelwhitedear 1 point 14 hours ago

Who are you and how long have you been in my head?

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[–]ECAVnightblair 1 point 7 hours ago

You are right in many things.

I wish this would be more discussed in the Church. I've always felt that I am wrong Christian that I somehow don't get along with the rest, being too different, when everyone speaks how easy it is to believe, you must only ... believe.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 02:54:11 PM »
I was on another forum in a discussion and simply related experiences from my Christian past.  True, honest experiences that led me to where I am today, but I didn't share "where I am today" as an agnostic or atheist, because then people just shut down and don't listen to what you have to say.

I'd posted in an article asking, if Jesus is real and he changes us, why are Christians so depressed?

Everything I'm saying here is 100% true from personal experiences in church as my time alive as a Christian which has long exceeded my time as a non-believer... I'm just able to say it out loud now, so, even though I didn't introduce myself "Hi I don't believe anymore, ignore me" I'm sharing honest feelings and experience in the post below.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2ejglr/ask_pastor_matt_if_christianity_is_true_why_are/

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YRM_DM 3 points 17 hours ago

I think people expect to accept Jesus in their lives and hearts and be reborn as promised. They hope to have a real, personal relationship with a being that tells them things that their own mind can't possibly tell them.

When this stuff doesn't happen, they are told that the relationship is one of a lifetime of work and struggle to walk and grow in faith.

Over time, as good things happen in your life, credit for all success is given only to God, but blame for all failure is cast fully on the believer.

Succeed at resisting a temptation? Praise Jesus! Fail at resisting a temptation? Forgive me Lord!

God becomes like a reverse Spider Man with all of the power, but zero responsibility for any evil or failure or suffering... though he gets credit for any good or success or positive health.

Many Christians admit to being "nothing" without God.

This lack of actual change when "saved" coupled with everything I said above is discouraging.

Prayers are answered through things like hairs on the back of your neck standing up, or a song that comes on the radio, or a kind word from a friend. But prayers are never answered in a clear way like they were for Paul... or for Elijah when he prayed that God would strike his altar with fire from heaven, and God did.

There's no voice in our head telling us anything we don't already know.

If a non-believer asks me to use my relationship with God to answer any questions about them, I can't. There's no answer.

Everything must be taken on faith.

This process is exhausting for many people and I believe it can lead to depression. I know it's not always appreciated to speak honestly about our faith experiences but, I think this genuinely has something to do with the issue described in the article.


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[–]jayelwhitedear 1 point 14 hours ago

Who are you and how long have you been in my head?

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[–]ECAVnightblair 1 point 7 hours ago

You are right in many things.

I wish this would be more discussed in the Church. I've always felt that I am wrong Christian that I somehow don't get along with the rest, being too different, when everyone speaks how easy it is to believe, you must only ... believe.

Have you ever considered the possibility you were never shown the truth about God?  Could false doctrine possibly bring you into a relationship with God?  Many of the things you relate are the teachings of false religion.  Many of those you've listened to probably don't even know God's name.  I'm here to tell you that his name is not "LORD", and it's not "Jesus".  How could they possibly help you if they don't even know the truth themselves?  They are blind guides.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 02:58:14 PM »
Many of the things you relate are the teachings of false religion.

If you have arguments for your religion that don't apply to other religions, post them here. I'd sure like to see that.
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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 03:36:48 PM »
Have you ever considered the possibility you were never shown the truth about God? 
-  Definitely because it doesn't seem that the Bible is fully true or divinely inspired.   I think the truth is that there is likely no god, and if there is, he's not described in the Bible.

Could false doctrine possibly bring you into a relationship with God? 
-  No.  But a God who acts and puts a clear doctrine out there in an unmistakable way... or answers prayers when you pray to him... could do that.    Here's a question for you:

What kind of God, if prayed to sincerely, would ignore one of his creations because they haven't figured out which details of 20,000 denominations were exactly correct?

Many of the things you relate are the teachings of false religion.  Many of those you've listened to probably don't even know God's name.  I'm here to tell you that his name is not "LORD", and it's not "Jesus".  How could they possibly help you if they don't even know the truth themselves?  They are blind guides.

That's awesome!  How do you know you aren't a blind guide?  How can you prove that to me?

Do you have a relationship with Jehovah?  If so, is it one where you communicate back and forth and you're 100% sure he's real?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 10:05:30 PM »
Quote from: YRM
That's awesome!  How do you know you aren't a blind guide?  How can you prove that to me?

For starters I know his name and don't bury it in superstition, forget it, or treat it as worthless.  How many people do you know well that you don't know their name?

"And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (Exodus 3:15)

"Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain [use in a worthless way]; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." (Exodus 20:7)

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered" (Joel 2:32)

Here is something you can consider while thinking about 20k+ denominations.  "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-6)

20k+ denominations do not form "one faith, one baptism, one body".  There are not 20k.  There is one.  All others are false.  False religion cannot bring you to God.  If the path to life is "narrow" and "few are the ones finding it" and the majority of the world professes a religion, what does that tell you?

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How do you know you aren't a blind guide?  How can you prove that to me?

I can only do it by revealing the true God to you, Jehovah willling.  Allow me to clear up some false teachings you have already mentioned.

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I think people expect to accept Jesus in their lives and hearts and be reborn as promised.

To be reborn actually means to be resurrected.  Baptism is a symbol of this but the actual rebirth doesn't occur until resurrection.  Service to Jehovah does not begin with a frenzy of emotion or some supernatural feeling.  That is a false teaching.  Service to Jehovah is an act of will.

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Over time, as good things happen in your life, credit for all success is given only to God, but blame for all failure is cast fully on the believer.

Both of those teachings are false. (Ecc 9:11,12)

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Many Christians admit to being "nothing" without God.

That is not a Christian perspective.  The second greatest commandment is to "love your neighbor as yourself".  The first step to following that is a healthy love for yourself.  However, a Christian doesn't want to take too much upon themselves in a prideful way.  They should always be in acknowledgement of the source of their wisdom.

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This lack of actual change when "saved" coupled with everything I said above is discouraging.

Here is the downside of false religious doctrine.  It does not work.  Jehovah will help one change but changing is an act of will and is seldomly instant.  One changes relative to their love for Jehovah.  The more you love him, the more you want to obey him.  Ones comes to love him by hearing the truth about him.  Hearing lies will never bring you closer to the true God.

I'm tired of typing.  I'll stop there.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 10:47:04 PM »
 Just my opinion,FUCK any and all gods,real or imaginary
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 11:25:21 PM »
Jst

A few questions:

1) How did christianity survive in a recognizable form until the JW's came along? What glue bound the "false" religions together well enough for your founders to correctly separate the "truth" out of the falsehoods? How could over 1800 years of false religious practice still hold on to enough correct information for your founders to parse it out? And, as per your JW claims, if all religion was false until you guys showed up, any idea why your god tolerated that? I mean, if everyone was wrong, wasn't another drowning, or a burning or something, in order long before you guys popped on to the scene? And ny idea why Noah, who had an in with the big guy, wasn't a JW from the get go?

2) Many others, members of what you call "false religions", say exactly the same thing about your version of christianity too (that it is false), and they also can list a litany of reasons why JW's are wrong. How could a disinterested 3rd party determine which claim is true? If any.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #7 on: Today at 12:49:02 AM »
Why does god (loving, caring, etc) set up a system whereby the vast majority of his human creations are going to be led astray by false religions and fail to recognize the true one?[1]

Suppose a class studies hard for an exam based on what they think the teacher wants, but 49 of 50 students fail the test. Can we say that it has to be 100% the students' fault? Could it also be the case that the teacher was not clear and the students honestly studied the wrong material?

I think all religious people would like to worship the right god in the right way. Hell, most everyone would like to know what the real deal is--we atheist are all about knowing what is real. So, why is god doing this "narrow is the way" and "few will find it" mysterious ambiguous crap?

Why does god let a billion people be sincere Hindus, another billion sincere Muslim and another nearly two billion the wrong kind of sincere Christian? Another billion Chinese with Buddhism and folk religions. And most of the rest (Rastas, Sikhs, Jews, Bahais, etc.) are also wrong because they are definitely not JW's. So they are doomed as well.

And they all get punished for not guessing right, for trusting their parents and their culture to guide them.  I cannot get my mind around this-- how people think this is the behavior of a nice god or a kind god. This is the behavior of an uncaring, arrogant jerk, not a loving parent.

God is like Lucy snatching the salvation football away from Charlie Brown.
 1. Assuming for the sake of argument it's the JW's, but it could be Haitian Vodun, Hari Krishna or Scientology, considering that all religions have the same (zero) amount of evidence.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:53:12 AM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:49:00 AM »
Here is the downside of[1] religious doctrine.  It does not work. 
 1. edit - unnecessary and misleading word

Fixed that for you.

You're welcome.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #9 on: Today at 10:10:06 AM »
Aside from the post getting a bit side tracked...   were any of you guys surprised too to see Christian forum posters asking things like, "Who are you and how long have you been in my head?"

Believers are under intense pressure not to express their doubts, and, if they do, they are then under intense pressure to accept unsatisfactory, canned answers that don't really solve the problem.

JST - You say that you know god because you know his true name, Jehovah.   But if you flip to this page here:   
http://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html

That page lists all the names of God in the Bible, and what scripture they're found in.   Most of the names translate to "Lord" or "The Lord <insert quality here>"

There are also translations that mean God, God of Seeing, Mighty God, Most High, etc.

The case you put forth is that, all these other versions of Christianity got it wrong, and, in spite of sincere effort and heartfelt prayers, Jehovah doesn't hear them because they don't know his name.

It's like being in a super-secret decoder ring fan club where if you don't guess the right password, you don't get in.

Now you've admitted that Jehovah doesn't change us supernaturally, and you've admitted that nothing to almost nothing supernatural happens in our lives.   You've admitted that the change is a slow act of obedience and process of deciding to do the right thing, day after day.

That's great, I try to be a better person every day too.

However I don't see any reason to believe that your interpretation of the scriptures, or the Bible itself, is a valid source of information.    As you said, there are no lasting miracles, kids don't get healed from mental illness or disabilities...   you have a relationship with Jehovah that you're sure is real, but to bring me into the fold, you can't ask Jehovah to tell you anything about ME that would convince ME that you have this relationship.

"YRM - Jehovah told me that your first three pets names were X, Y, and Z.   He told me that when you were four and a half, you got in trouble for doing something, except, you remember the date wrong and you were actually five at the time... check with your mom."

Nothing like that will ever happen.

There's nothing you have about being a JW that 'proves' it's the right way except you think your interpretation of a book that I don't think is true or accurate is "the correct interpretation".

I just said a little prayer in my head saying that if Jehovah was real, to please prove it to me in a non-evil-genie kind of way (hahaha I strike you with lightning to prove I'm real), and so far, nothing has happened.  I don't expect anything to happen.

Basically, it's this... you have NOTHING convincing to bring to the table that says to me "wow, these guys are the ones that God is really acting through supernaturally... there's something different going on here"

Don't get me wrong, I like you... but you're not doing anything different than I am as far as trying to be a good person and improve yourself or be kind to strangers.  I do all that too in spite of thinking Jehovah or Yahweh or Lord or Jesus is imaginary.  (Jesus may have been a real person with no divine power, who knows.)



You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #10 on: Today at 10:20:19 AM »
Yrm,the difference between you and JST is that you stopped,thought for yourself and looked at things with the Jehovah goggles off. JST refuses to remove the Jehovah goggles,so he may see the world as it is not how its been painted by his brainwashers.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #11 on: Today at 11:02:35 AM »
Here is something you can consider while thinking about 20k+ denominations.  "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-6)

20k+ denominations do not form "one faith, one baptism, one body".  There are not 20k.  There is one.  All others are false.  False religion cannot bring you to God.

There are people who are following false religions.  There are people who earnestly want a relationship with god but are being blinded by false doctrine.  God, presumably, is aware that these people earnestly want a relationship with god.  Does god step in and let them know that they're doing it wrong?  That their religion is false?  No - he sits back, shaking his head in disappointment.  He's the Lord and Master of the machine shop, and when the guy (let's call him Bob) who sincerely wants to do a good job turns the lathe on wearing a ruffled pirate shirt and extra-long tie, god sits back and says to himself "man, that guy is going to really hurt himself - he should know that he shouldn't operate a lathe like that."

Here's the thing - Bob doesn't know he shouldn't operate a lathe like thatNo one told him.  His buddy, who says that he's worked with god, the Lord and Master of the machine shop, gave him instructions on how to operate the lathe.  According to his buddy, those instructions came from god, the Lord and Master of the machine shop.  The instructions look pretty old and ragged, and they do include things like 'sweep up when you're done', so it seems legit, and Bob certainly wants to follow god's instructions.  God, who is sitting back and watching this catastrophe unfold, who bloody well knows you shouldn't operate a lathe like that, who bloody well cares whether or not the guy will hurt himself, bloody well knows that the guy doesn't want to hurt himself, and bloody well knows that the guy does not possess the experience, knowledge, and expertise to safely operate the lathe, keeps his mouth shut.

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If the path to life is "narrow" and "few are the ones finding it" and the majority of the world professes a religion, what does that tell you?
It tells me that god is a jerkbag.
Or an idiot.
Or impotent.
Or non-existent.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #12 on: Today at 01:14:01 PM »
JDawg...

I love your analogy but it's more like a new guy coming in to operate a lathe.   The instruction manual is a few thousand pages long, and it says things like, "Thou shalt not operate a Lathe with a shirt of ruffles" and later it says, "Blessed is he who has a ruffled shirt, but yet still operates a lathe, for I am with him"

There are thousands of obscure rules in the operating manual and five guys at the company previously operated the lathe.   Each of them has some horrible injury or other from the lathe, but they all claim to know how to use it properly and have proper understanding of the manual.

All five of them tell you different things...
- Yeah, if you wear a ruffled shirt, you might get hurt.
- No, the ruffles aren't long enough, it's things like a tie, or loose strings you have to worry about.
- All those things like bounce off the lathe, they never really get caught or wrap around, it doesn't matter what you wear.
- The important thing is using safety goggles.
- You can't use safety goggles because the bands might get caught on the lathe and pull your face in.
- It's not called a Lathe, it's called a Jathe, and you can't expect to use it right if you don't know it's real name.

And so on.  They all claim to be experts, yet share contradictory things.   When you use the lathe wrong and get hurt, each of them, who also has been hurt, would say, "Of course you got hurt, you weren't obedient to the Lathe instruction book, it's your fault!  If you would just obey the instructions you'd be fine."

You flip back open the instructions and it talks about how the Lathe can be instrumental for use by slaves, and the Lathe performs better if you sacrifice sheep to it, but later in the book it says that the first part of the manual was "just for an older time of Lathe operation" and in that same book it says, "Not a letter of the lathe operation in the old lathement will pass away until the great lathe from the sky comes back."

Nothing is clear.  Everything is contradictory.  Each of the five former operators keeps claiming that they have the answers, but the first one is missing a hand, the second one is in a wheel chair, the third one had half his face torn off, the forth one is blind from flying scraps, and the fifth one has a divot sanded into his forehead and you can see his brain pulsing.

None of them is any "better" or clearly demonstrating any kind of "rightness", but they all claim to have the correct translation of the lathe manual, and that you shouldn't even try to read it on your own because you'll mis-translate it.

Then, beyond that, they each claim that the Lathe Manual is perfect and non-contradictory, and quote contradictory passages at each other.

Each of them is perplexed when you call the lathe manual a pile of crap.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #13 on: Today at 01:40:54 PM »
JST - You say that you know god because you know his true name, Jehovah.   But if you flip to this page here:   
http://www.gotquestions.org/names-of-God.html

That page lists all the names of God in the Bible, and what scripture they're found in.   Most of the names translate to "Lord" or "The Lord <insert quality here>"

"YHWH / YAHWEH / JEHOVAH: “LORD” (Deuteronomy 6:4; Daniel 9:14) – strictly speaking, the only proper name for God. Translated in English Bibles “LORD” (all capitals) to distinguish it from Adonai, “Lord.” The revelation of the name is first given to Moses “I Am who I Am” (Exodus 3:14). This name specifies an immediacy, a presence. Yahweh is present, accessible, near to those who call on Him for deliverance (Psalm 107:13), forgiveness (Psalm 25:11) and guidance (Psalm 31:3)."

You must seperate titles from actual names. 

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Basically, it's this... you have NOTHING convincing to bring to the table that says to me "wow, these guys are the ones that God is really acting through supernaturally... there's something different going on here".

Yes I do actually.  It can be easier to identify his disciples than it is to interpret the Bible, although the Bible provides the identifying marks.

1.  "If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

Christ's disciples can be identified by what they do.  Do they really do what Christ taught his disciples to do?  Confusing doctrines such as trinity, hellfire, etc. don't have a direct effect on what a Christian does.  But when you get to the nuts and bolts of Christianity it's your actions that determine if you are a Christian or not.  Those that do not actually do the things taught by Christ should not be trusted.  If they actually knew as they ought then they'd be imitating Christ.  "The truth will set you free", not false doctrine.

Christ himself clearly stated how his disciples could be recognized.  Nothing is said about apostolic succession, miracles, doctrine, or anything of that nature.  Here is what Christ said point blank, which overrides what others say.  "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:34,35)

Christ's disciples can be identified by their love for one another.  Does this so far makes sense to you?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #14 on: Today at 01:49:21 PM »
Still waiting for that post in my thread, Jstwebbrowsing. In case you missed the link, here it is: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27160.0.html
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #15 on: Today at 03:03:10 PM »
JST..... John 14-15 there,is that all commandments? There is not just the 10 you like there is  315... None of which Christians regard as applying to them.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:06:54 PM »
JST..... John 14-15 there,is that all commandments? There is not just the 10 you like there is  315... None of which Christians regard as applying to them.

613, actually. Only the Jews (or at least some of them) actually recognize that.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #17 on: Today at 03:37:21 PM »

Quote
Christ's disciples can be identified by what they do.  Do they really do what Christ taught his disciples to do?

I'm a fairly honest person.   I try never to lie or be deceptive to the important people in my life and I try to be as honest as possible with everyone.   I volunteer at an adoption charity.   I've given money to the poor and I've helped co-workers to be promoted.   I try to give people second chances when they hurt me and they're sorry.   I'm highly committed to keeping my promises, like marriage, even though I went through a divorce I was willing to do anything possible to turn it back into a healthy relationship.

I love and would gladly help my neighbors.    I've turned enemies at work into friends that I've given referrals to.   I've helped several friends get jobs.   I've worked to create win/win situations for friends, family or co-workers.

Of course I don't think this makes me perfect, or god-like, or worth more than anyone else... but if I met you tomorrow, I'm sure I'd be happy to grill some ribs and chat with you over some fresh brewed tea or something.   I have no ill-will towards you.

But I'd put it out there that my friends, family and loved ones would speak highly of my "fruits".

But I definitely think "god is imaginary" so, where do I fall on your litmus test?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #18 on: Today at 03:50:38 PM »
JST..... John 14-15 there,is that all commandments? There is not just the 10 you like there is  315... None of which Christians regard as applying to them.

Jesus said his commandments.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #19 on: Today at 03:52:50 PM »
Jesus-God....one in the same.....no?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #20 on: Today at 03:57:11 PM »
JST..... John 14-15 there,is that all commandments? There is not just the 10 you like there is  315... None of which Christians regard as applying to them.

613, actually. Only the Jews (or at least some of them) actually recognize that.
funny how Christians can't even follow the rules  they covet,never mind the rules of a Jewish god. Evolution of a god at its finest. Abandon rules you don't like,don't even follow the ones you do like.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #21 on: Today at 03:58:43 PM »
But I definitely think "god is imaginary" so, where do I fall on your litmus test?

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.

What do you think it means to worship the Father "in spirit"?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #22 on: Today at 04:03:34 PM »
Jesus-God....one in the same.....no?

Not according to Jesus.  "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Jesus was a mediator the same as Moses was a mediator.  Moses was given his commandments for the Jews.  Jesus was given his commandments for the Christians.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Speaking from my Christian Past
« Reply #23 on: Today at 04:13:56 PM »
Jesus-God....one in the same.....no?

Not according to Jesus.  "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)

Jesus was a mediator the same as Moses was a mediator.  Moses was given his commandments for the Jews.  Jesus was given his commandments for the Christians.

12 Monkeys,

Remember, there are 20k+ sects of xianity, and not all believe in the triune god. Yeah, it's hard to keep up with who believes what, I know. Which makes it all that much more difficult to figure who's really telling the "TRUTHTM"
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.