Author Topic: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]  (Read 566 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2014, 03:45:27 PM »
Nice to see that you're as well-mannered in person as you are when you're writing letters, Dante.

Expected Values are only useful when you only know the potential outcomes of different decisions.  It is like gambling, you know the payouts of different bets, but not which bet will come up as "true."  With this situation, it is a little bit difficult because you don't actually know if the expected payouts are even real or not.  No one is going to know that until they are dead, so it is kind of a moot point.  We only have the knowledge we have to go off of, so we need to use that to the best of our ability.
This is certainly true, and that's why we should avoid basing the decisions we make in real life on things that we have no real knowledge of.

Quote from: Dante Harnz
I also want to point out that it is not very fair to say my paper has 16 assumptions, most of my assumptions are really just definitions of the terms I am using in the paper.  Only about three or four really quality as true assumptions and I put some time into at least providing rationales for them and testing their validity.
I was going based off of your own list.  In any case, the point I was trying to make was not that your paper was unsound because you made X assumptions, but that it didn't really provide any greater explanatory power to justify making them.  Occam's razor is a principle of parsimony for problem-solving; without concrete knowledge, it is better to pick an explanation which has the least number of assumptions, because it is always possible to prop up an explanation by adding additional ad hoc assumptions onto it.

Quote from: Dante Harnz
I do appreciate you considering my article as I appreciate different perspectives on it.  I would also love to hear if you think I flubbed the math anywhere as that would be helpful in me making sure I am not making any unsound arguments.
I didn't see any mistakes in the math.  The problem is that your math was constructed to support your reasoning; if your reasoning is flawed, then it doesn't matter how accurate your math is.  By the same token, you can have the best logical proof in the world, but if your premise is flawed or unsupportable...

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2014, 07:49:07 AM »
Read the title, knew it was going to be Pascal's Wager. It was.

There is an infinite benefit, the is an infinitesimal chance of being correct: These cancel each other out.

If you truly, truly believed in Pascal's wager you should send me $600.00, because there a very tiny chance I will grant you infinite money.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2014, 05:08:44 PM »
Hi Dante Harnz. Resident black dreadlocked atheist commie mommy here.

You are teh awesome for giving us some actual math! I love math. Most of the theists who come here just give us words. I love words, too, btw.

But the one thing I am looking for, even more than math or words, is evidence that what you believe is true. That is still lacking. But not to worry. No other theist has ever done it, either. With a track record of none, it is not surprising that you could not do it, either.

You might want to consider running the same calculations with Islam, since that religion has a much more attractive paradise in the afterlife and, even more importantly, a much worse hell for the unbelievers.

If I had to take Pascal's wager at gunpoint, I would choose Islam over some namby pamby liberal version of Christianity. Allah really kicks your a$$ for not following him. Muslims are supposed to choose death before denying their god, and even kill members for changing to a different religion. Some will even kill you for telling them about a different religion. That's way hardcore.[1]

Stick around. I like you so far.  :-*
 1. At the college where I teach, old dudes from some religious group were handing out free bibles. I just tell them I am not religious and leave it at that. One of my veiled Muslim students politely informed the man that for her to even touch a bible was haram (forbidden). Good for her!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Mrjason

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2014, 04:34:14 AM »
Read the title, knew it was going to be Pascal's Wager. It was.

There is an infinite benefit, the is an infinitesimal chance of being correct: These cancel each other out.

If you truly, truly believed in Pascal's wager you should send me $600.00, because there a very tiny chance I will grant you infinite money.

Actually, I am an aristocrat from a west african country. I need to launder a vast sum of money for an implausible reason. If you give me your account details and logins I will allow you to keep some of the money.

Online One Above All

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2014, 04:42:18 AM »
Actually, I am an aristocrat from a west african country. I need to launder a vast sum of money for an implausible reason. If you give me your account details and logins I will allow you to keep some of the money.

Really? Wow!
My name is "Dr. One Above All" without quotes, account number "257 160 006" without quotes, login "1 4M N0T 4N 1D10T", with spaces and without quotes.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2014, 07:46:13 AM »
Even if this is a real thing, and the formula had value... you could screw the whole thing up by introducing a new religion with greater rewards and punishments.

The next scientology or whatever, could promise 100 hot partners for eternity and eternal torture for you and your family if you decline, so, therefore, you'd have to believe in that because it'd have the best possible chance of giving the best possible reward and avoiding the worst fate.

If there's a standard that the new religion would have to prove some level of validity first, then, that same standard would have to apply to all religions and we're back to atheism.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 09:39:37 AM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why, logically, you should believe in Heaven and Hell [#2809]
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2014, 05:44:36 PM »
Seems like religions are going in the wrong direction from Pascal.

Nowadays, at least for liberal Christians, everyone and their corgi gets to go to heaven, as long as they try to be nice. Nobody is in burning their giblets off in the lake of fire. What used to be hell is now just "separation from god", which is basically normal everyday life forever.

So, choose to believe in nonsense and hang out with Joel Orsteen forever in Disneyland. Or just keep doing what you are doing. And you get to keep doing what you are doing. Whatev.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.