Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?

[Lukvance]

Thank you Astreja that was fun. The problem with my examples and any example is that they are not real.
In reality there is good coming out even of evil deeds. Preventing the evil deed would diminish the value of good in everything plus it remove the opportunity to stop, convert and do good.
As I said, there is a reason why God chose to let us free and not impose himself onto us. He want us to chose him (Love) willingly. I understand how giving us free will might allow evil to exist. But, ultimately, there is more good coming out of it than bad. It is a better thing to give us freedom than to impose his will.

[eh!]

Agree yr examples and your god only exist in the mind.


How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..

you have never yet supplied any evidence yet other than god exists as a concept.

[Lukvance]

How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..

How do I conclude free will is better? well I have never met someone who would think contrary. Are you a slave master?

[eh!]

You claimed it is better, how did you reach this conclusion.

[epidemic]

How do you quantify there is more good than evil coming out of free will. and how do you conclude free will is better than not free will, do you just assume all this cos that's what you like to think..

How do I conclude free will is better? well I have never met someone who would think contrary. Are you a slave master?

Slave master???  Slaves have free will as well.   There is a cost benefit analysis that controls the decision to exercise it but Spartacus proved that even slaves have free will.

As for the value of free will.  I don't know what the alternative would be.   If you are a thinking being with decision making capability, I think you may have free will no matter what.  Bacteria do not have free will, they have biologically controlled actions they perform.  They do not seem unhappy or happy.  Ants seem to be the same.  As we climb the evolutionary ladder to higher intelligence we start to see free will grow.   Now if god made me and used me as a tool and I obeyed his commands as if they were biological imperatives I would not be happier or sadder.  I frankly doubt I would think about it because it would simply be. 

Being angry at a lack of free will requires free will IMO.  Frankly in the absense of free will I believe you would not care.

Finally Free will is not freely executed IMO unless you are given the facts.  God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.   In the real world are best decsions made based on faith, but evidence and reason?  Should I walk out into Death Valley with faith I will find water or would it be better to have a current map?  One of the most powerful arguments against religion for me is this requirement of belief based upon faith.  Faith does not seem to be an ideal to strive for in other areas of my life.  Faith has little practical application in the real day to day world.   Why would god demand you make eternal life and death decision with only some of the facts?

[JoeNobody]

Okay, if some guy walked in on a rapist about to commit rape, and stood by and did nothing to intervene, he would not be considered good or moral. Even to protect the rapists "free will".  Valuable as it may be, "free will" is trumped by the victim's well being.

I'm not sure I understand you. But the guy should intervene and use his "free will" to force the rapist to stop.

So then, this "God" character should use his "free will" to stop the rapist.

[JoeNobody]

I am assuming that you are talking figuratively here. Are you?

No. You too can't do it without him.

I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.

[skeptic54768]

Hopefully this reply doesn't get "lost in the sauce" so to speak, but it takes a while for my posts to be approved by a moderator.

With that said, Lukvance is absolutely right. Free will is the reason we are able to love God. In order to love God, we have to be free to hate Him as well. If God did not allow hate to exist, then He can't allow love to exist either. Can't have one without the other.

This is a very simple concept and I am surprised atheists are confused about this. They claim to understand quantum physics, yet they can't understand free will. It's the strangest thing.

[skeptic54768]

I can breathe without the intervention of any deity. I'm doing it now.

Well, you certainly can't prove that.

[skeptic54768]

So then, this "God" character should use his "free will" to stop the rapist.

No, because this life is a test for us, not a test for God. God wants us to figure things out on our own. How else would we prove our worth to Him? It's all meaningless if He just interferes with every decision. Then we would just be puppets on a string.

[Lukvance]

God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.

You could have all the evidence you need. God does not obscure the facts so look for them.

[One Above All]

God intentionally obscures the facts of his existence, leaving me to make decisions with false, misleading  and or lacking evidence.

You could have all the evidence you need. God does not obscure the facts so look for them.

Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.

[Lukvance]

Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.

You just need to ask. Reasonably.

[Lukvance]

"Slaves have free will as well" Of course they have. But their are less free than the master. Look how removing just a little freedom affect humans and tell me if it's good or not to be free? Could you be free without free will?

[One Above All]

Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.

You just need to ask. Reasonably.

Dear Lukvance's god, prove your existence to me by healing my cousin the very second this reply is posted on the forum.

Just so you know, I've prayed for this several times already, back when I was a believer. We'll see how your god fares. I have no doubt it will fail, as all gods do, as gods don't exist[1].

1.	Can anyone guess what Lukvance is going to use to "argue" against the fact that his god will fail miserably? I sure can.

[jdawg70]

Pray tell, Lukvance, how do we acquire this evidence? And note that you said it was all the evidence [we] would need.

You just need to ask. Reasonably.

Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?

[Lukvance]

Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?

No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.

[Lukvance]

Dear Lukvance's god, prove your existence to me by healing my cousin the very second this reply is posted on the forum.

God wont impose his will unto others. Why would he impose yours?

Just so you know, I've prayed for this several times already, back when I was a believer.

That's too bad, I hope you understand now why it didn't work.

[One Above All]

God wont impose his will unto others. Why would he impose yours?

Yet you impose your will unto others. What makes you better than your god?
And just so we're clear, I'm talking about this:

Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?

No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.

Also, if that's your excuse, let me try something else.
Dear Lukvance's god, turn the paintings in my room (Starry Night and Café Terrace at Night; both by Van Gogh) into the originals, signed by the artist, while keeping the originals where they are.

That's too bad, I hope you understand now why it didn't work.

Do you even know what my cousin has? She's mentally handicapped. She has no will of her own, as far as any of us can tell. Sure, she's sentient and intelligent (she can understand a lot of things, such as turning lights on/off, playing the next/previous song on an iPod, how to put earphones on, and I believe she can also tie her own sandals[1]), but I (and others) have never seen her ask for or demonstrate an interest in (in the sense that she doesn't have "wants") anything; not even if it made her uncomfortable (thirst and hunger, for example; not even pain).

Scratch that; I just recalled there is something she wants. She wants the same thing a dog does: to be pet (metaphorically speaking). She wants to sit on our laps and hug us, while asking us to do things I don't know how to describe in English[2].

1.	The ones with velcro strips; I'm not sure if "tie" is the correct term here.
2.	It's not anything bad; I just lack the words to describe them.

[eh!]

Well her condition is clearly a consequence of her choices, what you want no consequences and just be slaves with no free will.

[jdawg70]

Isn't that god violating my free will to convince you that there is no evidence for god's existence?

No. God isn't doing anything here, I am.

But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something.

Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.

[One Above All]

Well her condition is clearly a consequence of her choices, what you want no consequences and just be slaves with no free will.

eh!, because I know (or at least I believe) you don't mean any harm by this, I'll let it slide. Just know that, if you say shit like this again, I will be pissed. Same goes for you Lukvance, only remove the "again" in the last sentence.

[eh!]

One no personal intended. i was going with luks logic. if you are going to post an example on a public forum about a loved one as an academic excercise i don't think you have a right to retort when others expand on the example YOU. bought into the public domain.


however i will respect your wishes, just remember everytime we post an example of someone who was in an accident or has a genetic condition or whatevet we are talking about someone's mother, brother, sister, husband, partner, daughter .....etc.


not trying to start anything or be cruel but lets think clearly.

[Lukvance]

Yet you impose your will unto others. What makes you better than your god?

I'm not better than God and I don't impose my will unto others.

Dear Lukvance's god, turn the paintings in my room (Starry Night and Café Terrace at Night; both by Van Gogh) into the originals, signed by the artist, while keeping the originals where they are.

That would be great eh? For who? wouldn't that diminish the value of the originals. Would that make you happier? For how long?

Do you even know what my cousin has?

No, I don't. I'm really sad that she is sick. I will pray for her, the even in her sickness, she will find someone like you who love her so much that it makes her world more joyful/perfect.

[Lukvance]

But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something. Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.

The evidence to what? To his existence? He gave me plenty already. I don't need more.

[Lukvance]

One no personal intended. i was going with luks logic.

And failed. It is not my logic. It is only yours. Own it.

[jdawg70]

But god is the one providing you the evidence.  He has to be doing something. Or he doesn't provide you evidence.  Pick one.  Can't be both.

The evidence to what? To his existence? He gave me plenty already. I don't need more.

Oh for cryin' out...

<breathes>

Ok.  I suppose it's possible that you didn't fathom the obvious point of the question.  It's certainly within the realm of possibility that you did not recognize that I meant the question in regards to someone who is still seeking evidence.  That is, wouldn't god be violating my free will to convince person A that there is no evidence of god if god provided this evidence at the behest of person A's desire for said evidence?

Come on Lukvance.  it is getting more and more difficult to take you remotely seriously.

[Lukvance]

That is, wouldn't god be violating my free will to convince person A that there is no evidence of god if god provided this evidence at the behest of person A's desire for said evidence?

Oh! you mean is God impeding your will (which is to provide me with evidence that God does not exist) by providing me evidence of his existence? No he is not.
In any case : God is not violating someones will.
Let's take an extreme hypothetical case : You want to kill me barehanded. I ask god for a gun. He gives me a gun. God did not violate your will to kill me.
True story : I wanted that book, my parents didn't want to buy it for me. I had almost enough cash to buy it myself, was missing 2$. I prayed God to give me 2$. Then I went to the book store. Guess what I found on the road there? 2$. Usually people don't let 2$ out of their pockets on the street, we usually find 25 cents. That day, I found 2$. Did God impede with my parents will? No, I did

[One Above All]

I'm not better than God and I don't impose my will unto others.

That's not what you said in the post I quoted.

That would be great eh? For who? wouldn't that diminish the value of the originals. Would that make you happier? For how long?

It would be great for me for a myriad of reasons. It wouldn't diminish the value of the originals; it would just mean that there'd be two originals. And I'd never speak of this to anyone, so...
It would make me happier to see the originals for myself, and then I'd also have proof of your god. If you're talking about how long it'd make me happy for, not long. Because then I'd have to raise an army of iron chariots to kick its ass. Of course, as expected by me, every atheist, and, I suspect, even you, nothing happened. Nothing.happened. And nothing will ever happen, because gods are not real. If you mean for how long I'd like the switch to last for, just long enough for me to notice it.

No, I don't. I'm really sad that she is sick. I will pray for her, the even in her sickness, she will find someone like you who love her so much that it makes her world more joyful/perfect.

Ah, praying... The theists' way of saying "Fuck whomever; I just want to feel good about doing nothing.".
Thanks, but no thanks.