Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?

[Lukvance]

The pope takes the ot seriously, luk knows something about Catholicism the pope doesn't?

Oh I take it very seriously too, don't worry.

[eh!]

Earthquake victims chose to die in an earthquake?,

[jdawg70]

Person A B and C.

Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it.

So I...shouldn't blame persons A, B, and C for causing the 6-year old's cancer?  I'm not really sure what you're saying here.  I'm not blaming god for causing the kid's cancer.  I'm blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.

The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire.

You're...you're NOT F*CKING GETTING IT, and I'm really unsure why that is.  It's not that f*cking hard Lukvance.  THE KID IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CANCER.  THE KID HAD NO.  F*CKING.  CHOICE.  IN.  GETTING.  THE.  F*CKING.  CANCER..  This hand and fire sh*t does not f*cking apply.  You break that analogy out again and I AM GOING TO F*CKING LOSE IT.

The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.

A consequence that THE 6-YEAR OLD IS SUFFERING DUE TO NO FAULT OF HIS/HER OWN.

Could you imagine a world where there would be no consequences?

Can you imagine a world where no innocent people suffer?  Where the only ones to suffer as a result of consequence are the ones who are responsible for those consequences?  Is that not significantly more fair?  Is that not significantly more conducive to respecting free will?

The guy who wanted to kill me didn't kill so did not go to jail. Heck jail wouldn't even exist.

And I gave you a damn out to that one, didn't I?  There is a point in time between the killer absolutely committing to killing you and harm actually coming to you.  God can *poof* the killer away right before harm comes to you.  Boom.  Jail.  Satisfies all of your requirements, except, perhaps, the part about innocent people actually suffering through no fault of their own.

My best guess?  You want to use the suffering of people to teach other people lessons.

That's what f*cking supervillains[//i] do.  That's definitely not what a kind person does, and I definitely wouldn't expect an entity that is 'all-loving' to do that.

[Disciple of Sagan]

Only the sower reaps what he has sown.

And what did the 6 year old cancer victim "sow" do you think, hmm? Better yet, what does an infant who is the victim of SIDS "sow"? Go on, let's hear your answer, or are you going to pull a post and run like you'd did in the "Why can't/won't god heal amputees?" thread?

The cycle of violence demands that for every action there is an equal and opposite one. Only true forgiveness is above that law and kills it dead in its tracks. Investigate your own mind to find its power to forgive continuously. The path of the Theists is to love all.

Psychobabble.

[eh!]

Jdawg relax luk loves you man. do you agree that you are responsible for eves sin, as such the child is responsible for getting cancer.

[Astreja]

Doctors use the word placebo to say they do not know how it works...

Incorrect.  Placebos are regularly used as controls in medical trials so that the effectiveness of a treatment can be ascertained.  The placebo effect, when patients improve on the imitation medicine, clearly points to a neurological and/or psychological phenomenon caused by the patient's expectations.

[Lukvance]

Earthquake victims chose to die in an earthquake?

No

[Lukvance]

Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

The cancer is the consequence of A B and C behavior. Not having a cancer or removing the cancer is removing the consequence of the choice made by A B and C.

Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it.

So I...shouldn't blame persons A, B, and C for causing the 6-year old's cancer?  I'm not really sure what you're saying here.  I'm not blaming god for causing the kid's cancer.  I'm blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.

Not that. You shouldn't blame anyone for the consequence of a choice but the actors. (blame A B C a no one else, not even God)

The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire.
The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.

You're...you're NOT F*CKING GETTING IT, and I'm really unsure why that is.  It's not that f*cking hard Lukvance.  THE KID IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS CANCER.  THE KID HAD NO.  F*CKING.  CHOICE.  IN.  GETTING.  THE.  F*CKING.  CANCER..  This hand and fire sh*t does not f*cking apply.  You break that analogy out again and I AM GOING TO F*CKING LOSE IT.

Again, I am NOT saying that the kid is responsible for his cancer. You are the one repeating again and again that false idea.

Can you imagine a world where no innocent people suffer?  Where the only ones to suffer as a result of consequence are the ones who are responsible for those consequences?  Is that not significantly more fair?  Is that not significantly more conducive to respecting free will?

Yes I can imagine and no it wont be more conductive to respecting free will. The will of the villain won't be respected. He wanted you to hurt and you did not hurt.

And I gave you a damn out to that one, didn't I?  There is a point in time between the killer absolutely committing to killing you and harm actually coming to you.  God can *poof* the killer away right before harm comes to you.  Boom.  Jail.  Satisfies all of your requirements, except, perhaps, the part about innocent people actually suffering through no fault of their own.

Jail means that he must be rescued from jail by God since he might not be really responsible of wanting to kill me. There was some other factors exterior to his will that forced him to pull the trigger (an abusive father for example)

[jdawg70]

Could you elaborate?  What freedoms are removed from person A, B, and C[//b] after the 6-year old is healed of terminal cancer?

The cancer is the consequence of A B and C behavior. Not having a cancer or removing the cancer is removing the consequence of the choice made by A B and C.

So...the innocent suffer to teach others a lesson.  That is not a good thing.

Not that. You shouldn't blame anyone for the consequence of a choice but the actors. (blame A B C a no one else, not even God)

I'm still blaming god for not curing the kid's cancer.  I'm sorry, but that's the case.  It's god's will that the innocent 6-year old kid suffer for things that the kid did not do.

Again, I am NOT saying that the kid is responsible for his cancer. You are the one repeating again and again that false idea.

The point is that you think it is A-OK for the kid to suffer through no fault of his own.  And I find that monsterous.

Yes I can imagine and no it wont be more conductive to respecting free will. The will of the villain won't be respected. He wanted you to hurt and you did not hurt.

So if it were a choice between the free will of the innocent victim or the free will of the guilty villain, you'd prefer that the villain's free will trumps the victim's?

Sorry...but what the fuck is wrong with you?  Are you a sick fuck or a complete and utter fucking moron?

Jail means that he must be rescued from jail by God since he might not be really responsible of wanting to kill me. There was some other factors exterior to his will that forced him to pull the trigger (an abusive father for example)

You're a fucking moron.  I'm kinda done with this.  You don't really have the intellectual capacity to bum around a forum like this.  Holy shit.  I'm kinda shaking in rage at how fucking stupid you are right now.

[Lukvance]

Insults insults. Do you have any control?
You don't give a better answer to the world.
Let us say that the there is no consequence whatsoever in the world. How is that better?
Let us say that there is consequence but only in certain cases. Who chose the cases? And what should consequence be?
For the record I would love that the kid get cured from cancer and maybe he will miraculously be cured. As I said, some information about this particular case are missing. I proposed that you took a real one instead of an invented one.
For the record it is the culprits (A B and C in this example) fault that the child is suffering not God.

[Astreja]

Luk, Jdawg's post raises a very interesting point:  Why is it that the free will of an attacker and the free will of a potential victim do not automatically cancel out, if there's a god behind the scenes trying to ensure that everyone gets their fair share of freedom?  It seems to Me that the main determinants in these conflicts are brute power and serendipity.  Without outside interference, such as third parties hearing a cry for help, the stronger party generally wins.  This is an exceedingly odd way for a benevolent god to conduct its affairs.

[Lukvance]

Luk, Jdawg's post raises a very interesting point:  Why is it that the free will of an attacker and the free will of a potential victim do not automatically cancel out, if there's a god behind the scenes trying to ensure that everyone gets their fair share of freedom?  It seems to Me that the main determinants in these conflicts are brute power and serendipity.  Without outside interference, such as third parties hearing a cry for help, the stronger party generally wins.  This is an exceedingly odd way for a benevolent god to conduct its affairs.

"everyone gets their fair share of freedom?" That's the hardest part.
I like to go back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. They were free, God told them to not eat the fruit. They thought they knew better than him. If free will had a value, you could have say that their free will were higher than God's free will...and that wouldn't make any sense.
Should there not be any consequences?
Could a world without consequences exist?
Imagine a world were free will could cancel each other. What would happen in the case of Adam and Eve?
What would happen if I wanted to marry a girl and she wanted to marry someone who wants to marry me? Who's will should "win"
Whenever there is a decision to take, what would happen knowing that you parents might not approve?

[Astreja]

Adam and Eve are characters from a religious fable, Luk.  I'm thinking of more recent real-world examples:  For instance, why is it that if a man overpowers a woman with the intention of raping her and no one else intervenes to save her, her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute who attacked her?

[Lukvance]

Adam and Eve are characters from a religious fable, Luk.  I'm thinking of more recent real-world examples:  For instance, why is it that if a man overpowers a woman with the intention of raping her and no one else intervenes to save her, her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute who attacked her?

That's one of my question.
Should there not be any consequences to your choices?
Could a world without consequences exist?
"her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute" What should be the outcome? The guy over power her and she leaves? The guy don't overpower her? The guy don't go outside looking for a woman to overpower? The guy doesn't get hit by his mother and dumped by his girlfriend? Why stop?

[Astreja]

It's worth noting, Luk, that even when rape victims pray to your alleged god to save them, their prayers are not answered.  What a useless god concept it is that you worship!  If I had 1/1000000th of the power that your god supposedly has, and just a smidgen of the omniscience, I'd be roaming the Earth with My Clue-By-Four™ and a collection of magic spells that would make an Conclave of archmagi #00FF00 with envy.  I'd rescue anyone in dire distress, and I wouldn't even care Whom, if anyone, they worshipped.

But to answer your question "Why stop?" -- Why bother with free will at all?  It's obvious that your god has completely lost control of its universe, except for a few quaint little Bible stories.  Did Pharaoh have free will to just let the Israelites go, or did he suffer repeated attacks of divinely-ordained atherosclerosis[1] that culminated in him chasing Moses et al. to the sea?  Did Mary have free will to resist the angel, or did your god's mad "salvation" scheme condemn her to bear a child out of wedlock?

1.	Exodus, chapters 7-15

[Lukvance]

If I had 1/1000000th of the power that your god supposedly has, and just a smidgen of the omniscience, I'd be roaming the Earth with My Clue-By-Four™ and a collection of magic spells that would make an Conclave of archmagi #00FF00 with envy.  I'd rescue anyone in dire distress, and I wouldn't even care Whom, if anyone, they worshipped.

Anyone? What would qualify as a problem needing your rescue and what would not? How would you judge? What would you do if there is more than 2 free will oposing each one?
Should there not be any consequences to your choices?
Could a world without consequences exist?
"her "free will" invariably loses to the "free will" of the domineering brute" What should be the outcome?

But to answer your question "Why stop?" -- Why bother with free will at all?  It's obvious that your god has completely lost control of its universe, except for a few quaint little Bible stories.  Did Pharaoh have free will to just let the Israelites go, or did he suffer repeated attacks of divinely-ordained atherosclerosis[1] that culminated in him chasing Moses et al. to the sea?  Did Mary have free will to resist the angel, or did your god's mad "salvation" scheme condemn her to bear a child out of wedlock?

1.	Exodus, chapters 7-15

The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.

[eh!]

Well i would rid the world of polio, oh wait science has already done that everywhere except places that don't allow it due to religious belief.

[Astreja]

What would qualify as a problem needing your rescue and what would not?

Any otherwise inescapable situation threatening life or limb, where no other help was available.

How would you judge?

I'm a goddess, Luk.  I did a little locum in the Olympus justice system some aeons ago.  You probably don't recognize Me without the scales and the blindfold.[1]

What would you do if there is more than 2 free will oposing each one?

Free will is not relevant here, as My decision is final and binding on all parties.  If 2 people, or 100 people, try to hurt 1 person, that 1 person gets rescued and the attackers all sustain non-life-threatening injuries at My hands that will make them think twice about mob violence in the future.

Should there not be any consequences to your choices?

I really don't see a downside to rescuing people, so I'm quite prepared to face any consequences there may be -- Bearing in mind, of course, that the "consequences" may well be positive rather than negative.

The Pharaoh's story is not a factual event.
Mary could have said no. She probably did in one of the parallel universes.

Nonetheless, the stories indicate that "free will" is not high on the Biblical deity's priorities.

1.	For the record, I peeked.

[Lukvance]

What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?

[eh!]

Luk do people that die in earthquakes choose to die,?

[Astreja]

What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?

The evil kid still has autonomy over his body, and the good kid has no right whatsoever to his heart.  I would defend the evil kid's life and punish anyone who wanted to strip his body for parts.

If you want to marry her but she doesn't want to marry you, and the fellow she loves doesn't want to marry her, you'll all have to remain single or find willing partners elsewhere.

Seriously, Luk, this isn't divine rocket science.  This isn't anything that a human rights lawyer or an advice columnist in the local paper couldn't figure out without My help.  Are you seriously suggesting that I should take some sort of "Might makes right / end justifies the means" position and just recuse Myself from all situations where someone is getting hurt by others?

[wheels5894]

What will you do (as a goddess) in rare situations like : There is this evil kid that has been punished by you many times before and there is this other kid (good kid) that needs a heart. Is it ok to get the evil kid's heart to the good one? or would you go to the rescue of the evil kid that is being attacked by a horde of doctors and parents?

What if I wanted to marry a girl who wanted to marry another guy that did not want her? Who's will would win?

I can't speak for goddesses, sadly, but I wouldn't mind dealing in the theology. Remind me - you god is suppose to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving isn't he? Well then, if that's the case he could -

1.  The evil kid - god could, quite simply, change his 'heart' and make him loving.

2. The boy that needs a new organ, the heart,  - an all powerful being could fix that with a word, couldn't he? Yet he'd rather see a child die of something he could fix? Really?

3. In the end, relationships sort themselves out and people marry whom they choose. Sure they don't all work out, but so what? Who doesn't make the wrong choices? People usually only marry when they both have decided that's what they want so if the girl doesn't want to marry you it isn't going to happen.

So that was easy wasn't it... maybe a problem.... just small one...

Of course, your god, being only in your head has not power to do anything good or bad. he couldn't heal anyone, even if he wanted to and that rather makes the point about him. Imaginary gods don't do anything in the real world. Argue all you like but its true and inside you know it makes sense that way and  makes no sense to imagine a sky-daddy with those enormous powers who doesn't lift a finger to help[ a child who needs a replacement heart (due to him not have made sure the pregnancy worked out right[1]). 

Have a serious think about what you really think might be the case - you might even be surprised!

1.

Psalm 139

[Lukvance]

Luk do people that die in earthquakes choose to die,?

Not everyone. Some might.

[Lukvance]

The evil kid still has autonomy over his body, and the good kid has no right whatsoever to his heart.  I would defend the evil kid's life and punish anyone who wanted to strip his body for parts.

So because I want to save my kid from dying you will punish me. How is that fair?
Oh wait, anyway my examples weren't correct, the little kid wouldn't be sick since you would've punish the evil virus or thing that would've made him sick in the first place. He would never get ill, nor get old. Same thing for the whole population of the earth, right?
Now what am I able to do. Can I be born even if my parents don't want me in this world? Will they be punished and I would be born anyway because of my will to live?
Can I have a steak instead of my broccoli? I won't get sick anyway, nor fat.
Can I raise my kids how I see fit?
Can I let my wife beat me if I want to even if my neighbors tells me that I should leave her? Or will you stop my wife against her and my will?

Seriously, Luk, this isn't divine rocket science.  This isn't anything that a human rights lawyer or an advice columnist in the local paper couldn't figure out without My help.  Are you seriously suggesting that I should take some sort of "Might makes right / end justifies the means" position and just recuse Myself from all situations where someone is getting hurt by others?

I am suggesting that a world without consequences but the one you give per your own judgement will not be possible. There is a reason why God chose to let us free and not impose himself onto us.
I agree I'm having trouble finding exactly why but I know there are reasons that I heard on a lecture some time ago.
I think it relate to "real life" events where nothing is neither all good or all bad. It might be interpreted as a bad thing to rescue a women in distress in certain circumstances.

[12 Monkeys]

Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.

[Lukvance]

Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.

The kid doesn't deserve to die.

[12 Monkeys]

Guy,guys,guys(and girls) It is simple Luk's thought pattern. The 6 year old with cancer deserves to die,but the 55 year old Atheist,who smoked,drank and sinned who was cured was done so by a miracle of God,simple really,yet unexplainable.

The kid doesn't deserve to die.

Jesus has absolved him of all sin,so YES he deserved to die....in God's eyes. does the 55 yr old deserve to be cured?

 you are now sighting environmental factors in cause of death of the 6 year old? God can't fix that?

[12 Monkeys]

Jesus has either cured(fixed) the consequence of all sin or he has done NOTHING,the boy deserves to die as a result of sin or Jesus solved the problem with his sacrifice,and the child got cancer FROM factors like diet and the environment.

 The fact that you think SIN causes illness is retarded,as Jesus absolved ALL mankind from the consequence of sin,or he was not real,or not the son of a god.

[Astreja]

So because I want to save my kid from dying you will punish me. How is that fair?

For one thing, it keeps another child alive.  You don't get to judge an "evil" kid to be unworthy of life and summarily murder him for your personal idea of the "greater good."  For all you know, the kid whose organs you want to steal might be the forebear of someone who makes an outstanding contribution to society.  (I won't answer this question for you, either.  I deliberately work from a position of limited omniscience, without knowledge of the future, because I'd rather be working in the real world than observing hypothetical future ones.)

Oh wait, anyway my examples weren't correct, the little kid wouldn't be sick since you would've punish the evil virus or thing that would've made him sick in the first place. He would never get ill, nor get old. Same thing for the whole population of the earth, right?

Wrong.  Life without the prospect of death and return to the ecosystem is like a kaleidoscope that can't change patterns:  Entertaining for a while, but ultimately boring.

Now what am I able to do. Can I be born even if my parents don't want me in this world? Will they be punished and I would be born anyway because of my will to live?

I might drop by and chat with them if you were already at a stage of development that would enable you to survive outside the womb, and facilitate your transfer to a more congenial locale.  I wouldn't force your mother to give birth to you, nor would I force your parents to raise you if they had the option of letting someone else adopt you.  Hopefully, though, they practice proper birth control so that you wouldn't be conceived in the first place.

Can I have a steak instead of my broccoli? I won't get sick anyway, nor fat.

*sigh*  I suggest you take that matter up with your family doctor.  If you want to do unto yourself things that could hurt you but no one else, I have no reason to intervene.

Can I raise my kids how I see fit?

Within reason.  I'd step in immediately if you thought abusing the kids was a good way to raise them.

Can I let my wife beat me if I want to even if my neighbors tells me that I should leave her? Or will you stop my wife against her and my will?

If it's by mutual agreement, go right ahead.  May I suggest keeping the window shades lowered and taking steps to minimize any unpleasant noises that might frighten or annoy the neighbours, though?

Oh, and you should also have a system whereby you can get assistance -- Wait a minute; that's Me.  Já, just pray for help or something if 50 Shades of Luk gets to be too much.