Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?

[jdawg70]

Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:

The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.

Would help clear the air.

[epidemic]

Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:

The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.

Would help clear the air.

Duh!!!  GWIMW, Game set and match:)

[Disciple of Sagan]

No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.

God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin). He stays close to you and wait for you to accept him into you life.

Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.

[Astreja]

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I don't pray for forgiveness so that I don't hit myself, I realize that I am saying no to God's (that's all sin is about) protection when I hit myself. You remember when I said I asked for his protection until the day I die? So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life. I hope you understand me better now.

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

This is a really good example of where the scientific method could explain more convincingly -- But only if we had proper experimental controls and a larger sample.  At this point, all we know is that "something happened."  We don't have supplemental information to tell us how often it normally happens to the average person, or what factors combine to evoke a protective effect.

This is also a good example of the problems inherent in personal testimony.  Again, "something happened" but we may never know what, or why.  All we have to go on is what you tell us, and even you may not know or remember all the contributing factors.  For instance, it's My understanding that in Catholicism one may not take the Eucharist without confession, so trying to go it alone has the potential of making someone an outlier in their religious community.  I don't know to what extent you participate in formal religion, but deeply ingrained practices are something that we tend to expect as part of our day-to-day routine, and any disruption of the usual can be quite jarring at a psychological level even if the change itself is for the better.

[Disciple of Sagan]

 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.

God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).

Do you see the contradiction here?

[Lukvance]

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"

Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.

Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

[Lukvance]

No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.

No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me.

Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.

Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?

[Jesuis]

<snip> THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER.<snip>

How do you know that?

[Lukvance]

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

Tried the placebo, didn't work.

[Lukvance]

 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.

God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).

Do you see the contradiction here?

No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?

[Jesuis]

We did not have the freedom to chose to be created!!!

That is true, but we were created in the image and likeness of God. Fully conscious, absolutely pure, devoid of ego, forever truthful, and always in the light of God.
However all of that was before mind and time was created.
 

[epidemic]

Luk,

Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge

[Lukvance]

Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge

You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.

[epidemic]

Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge

You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.

so your little miracle of avoiding corners was not, a miracle you requested and cited as proof?  So even if you ask for gods guidance you will probably run into trees at full speed?

[Jesuis]

Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:

The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.

Would help clear the air.

You reap what you sow.
So long as we do not KNOW what life is we are dabbling in wishful thinking.

[jdawg70]

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"

I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.

Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.

Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?

[Jesuis]

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

Tried the placebo, didn't work.

Doctors use the word placebo to say they do not know how it works.
We might as well say its a miracle.
However the word miracle has God in it and placebo is denying there is a God in it.
However to the consciously aware - they know - it is a power within themselves. This inner power is always with the individual. The consciously aware higher self.

[Lukvance]

I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.

She had this person that she never pardon. She made the trip to that persons house and ask for forgiveness. She did that with everyone she could think of.

Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?

No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.

[One Above All]

No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.

Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. [1]

1.	Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.

[Lukvance]

Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. [1]

1.	Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.

"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?

[Boots]

Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.

Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

emphasis added.

Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally.  Perhaps you could explain, then, how it is that Yahweh "hardened the heart of Pharoh" -- multiple times -- so that he could flex his divine muscles agianst Egypt, and how that was not a violation of the free will of Pharoh and the Egyptians he killed through the Ten Plagues.

Edit: in fact, Pharoh let The Chosen Ones go after the 10th plague of murdering all first born (free will?!?!), then Yahweh hardened Pharoh's heart AGAIN so he'd chase after them and Yahweh could then drown the entire army...

[jdawg70]

Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?

No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.

Sorry, but you really seem hell bent on saying the words 'god respects your free will' whilst simultaneously showcasing the myriad of ways that god does not give a sh*t about free will.  It's pretty clear here that god plain does not give a sh*t about this 6-year old's free will.

Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?

[One Above All]

"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?

False analogies. In both cases, the person in question did something that put them at risk. In the 6-year-old example, and according to your logic, it was someone else who did something that caused her to get cancer. Another reason why they're false analogies is that fire and humans are not omnipotent or omniscient. In fact, fire isn't even alive.

[Astreja]

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

Tried the placebo, didn't work.

I don't know how we can test this statement, particularly after the various discussions in which you brought up love and mathematics as analogous to the existence of your god.  If your god is purely a mental construct with no independent existence outside the minds of believers, it itself *is* a placebo (an entity with no "active ingredient" other than our faith in its efficacy).

That doesn't mean that any old placebo will do, however.  For instance, I've had strong positive reactions to Norse, Greek and Hindu deities but barely any at all to Roman, Celtic or Chinese deities -- And in a sense I'm actually allergic to the Abrahamic god, although not to its Mesopotamian predecessors.

[Disciple of Sagan]

No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me.

<sigh> The fault was still initially yours, Luk. If you had originally stated, and I quote, "Of course his suffering is the result of something that he did not do purposely. (like live in a house full of carcinogenic mold)" instead of, and I quote, "the boy is a victim of our sin", there would have been no issue with you in the first place. "Carcinogenic mold" does not equate to "our sin", correct? If your answer is yes, and you can admit that you chose your words poorly in your original statement, then I will gladly retract my negative opinion of you based upon said statement.

Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?

Now that you have clarified your initial comment, I accept your distinction as it applies to yourself. The rest of your explanation, however, has no basis in reality unless evidence is provided to the contrary. Sorry, I flat out reject your opinion, for that is exactly what you have offered.

No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?

Ok. I see what you meant. I stand corrected that there was no contradiction in your two comments.

[Jesuis]

Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. [1]

1.	Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.

Only the sower reaps what he has sown. The cycle of violence demands that for every action there is an equal and opposite one. Only true forgiveness is above that law and kills it dead in its tracks. Investigate your own mind to find its power to forgive continuously. The path of the Theists is to love all.

[Lukvance]

Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally

Nope I don't. Sorry.

[eh!]

The pope takes the ot seriously, luk knows something about Catholicism the pope doesn't?

[Lukvance]

Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?

Person A B and C. Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it. The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire. The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.
Could you imagine a world where there would be no consequences?
The guy who wanted to kill me didn't kill so did not go to jail. Heck jail wouldn't even exist.