Author Topic: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?  (Read 3365 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2014, 08:12:54 AM »
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2014, 08:25:12 AM »
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.

Duh!!!  GWIMW, Game set and match:)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2014, 09:50:25 AM »
No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.

Quote
God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin). He stays close to you and wait for you to accept him into you life.

Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2014, 10:13:38 AM »
I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I don't pray for forgiveness so that I don't hit myself, I realize that I am saying no to God's (that's all sin is about) protection when I hit myself. You remember when I said I asked for his protection until the day I die? So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life. I hope you understand me better now.

In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

This is a really good example of where the scientific method could explain more convincingly -- But only if we had proper experimental controls and a larger sample.  At this point, all we know is that "something happened."  We don't have supplemental information to tell us how often it normally happens to the average person, or what factors combine to evoke a protective effect.

This is also a good example of the problems inherent in personal testimony.  Again, "something happened" but we may never know what, or why.  All we have to go on is what you tell us, and even you may not know or remember all the contributing factors.  For instance, it's My understanding that in Catholicism one may not take the Eucharist without confession, so trying to go it alone has the potential of making someone an outlier in their religious community.  I don't know to what extent you participate in formal religion, but deeply ingrained practices are something that we tend to expect as part of our day-to-day routine, and any disruption of the usual can be quite jarring at a psychological level even if the change itself is for the better.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2014, 10:27:10 AM »
 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.


God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).

Do you see the contradiction here?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2014, 12:24:14 PM »
Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.
The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"

Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2014, 12:30:55 PM »
No. Sorry I seem to lack English comprehension on that particular case.

Then don't expect to be able to clearly and concisely communicate your messages without repeatedly being asked for clarification. The fault was yours, not ours in this particular case.
No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me. :(

Quote
Have you forgotten your point I was addressing? No (G)od is needed for me to be able to breathe. I will now request that you provide evidence that the human body is incapable of functioning without the direct aid and or consent of your deity.
Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2014, 12:32:30 PM »
<snip> THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER.<snip>
How do you know that?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #95 on: May 23, 2014, 12:33:35 PM »
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?
Tried the placebo, didn't work.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2014, 12:45:32 PM »
 
So God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life.
God does not abandon you when you don't want him (when you sin).
Do you see the contradiction here?
No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2014, 12:57:53 PM »
We did not have the freedom to chose to be created!!!
That is true, but we were created in the image and likeness of God. Fully conscious, absolutely pure, devoid of ego, forever truthful, and always in the light of God.
However all of that was before mind and time was created.
 
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2014, 12:57:55 PM »
Luk,

Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2014, 01:06:19 PM »
Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge
You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.
You're worth more than my time

Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2014, 01:09:45 PM »
Luk,
Are you going to take me up on my challenge?  It would go a long way toward convincing me that you are receiving supernatural help.  If you god can help you avoid corners I think he could easily help you complete the challenge
You want me to create a miracle purposely? That's impossible by definition.

so your little miracle of avoiding corners was not, a miracle you requested and cited as proof?  So even if you ask for gods guidance you will probably run into trees at full speed?

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2014, 01:13:49 PM »
Did you read his conclusion?  " THE 6-YEAR OLD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS/HER TERMINAL CANCER, and your suggestion that it should be the case" Means that he thinks that according to me the kid is responsible for his cancer. THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.

Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.

Perhaps a response to this:
Quote
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
You reap what you sow.
So long as we do not KNOW what life is we are dabbling in wishful thinking.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #102 on: May 23, 2014, 01:14:39 PM »
Then kindly give a valid reason why god does not heal the 6-year old child.
The answer is the same. Free will. But we are missing important details about the story of this child. My friend, who was miraculously cured of cancer, was cured after she did something that translate in English as "undertaking of forgiveness"
I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.

Quote
Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #103 on: May 23, 2014, 01:19:18 PM »
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?
Tried the placebo, didn't work.
Doctors use the word placebo to say they do not know how it works.
We might as well say its a miracle.
However the word miracle has God in it and placebo is denying there is a God in it.
However to the consciously aware - they know - it is a power within themselves. This inner power is always with the individual. The consciously aware higher self.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2014, 01:24:43 PM »
I think you're going to have to try explaining 'undertaking of forgiveness' more.
She had this person that she never pardon. She made the trip to that persons house and ask for forgiveness. She did that with everyone she could think of.

Quote
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.
You're worth more than my time

Online One Above All

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2014, 01:26:33 PM »
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.

Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2014, 01:34:49 PM »
Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?
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Offline Boots

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2014, 01:49:54 PM »
Quote
Perhaps a response to this:
The fact that anyone would allow an innocent person to suffer for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
or
The fact that anyone would not stop an innocent person from suffering for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
Would help clear the air.
Both are true if we talk about human beings, humans who can impose their will unto others. In God's case he allows the someone to do the transgression.
God could have stopped Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit but he chose not to because doing so would be going against their will.

emphasis added.

Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally.  Perhaps you could explain, then, how it is that Yahweh "hardened the heart of Pharoh" -- multiple times -- so that he could flex his divine muscles agianst Egypt, and how that was not a violation of the free will of Pharoh and the Egyptians he killed through the Ten Plagues.

Edit: in fact, Pharoh let The Chosen Ones go after the 10th plague of murdering all first born (free will?!?!), then Yahweh hardened Pharoh's heart AGAIN so he'd chase after them and Yahweh could then drown the entire army...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 01:51:37 PM by Boots »
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2014, 02:00:52 PM »
Are you saying that god could stop the 6-year old from having cancer, but chooses not to because doing so would be going against his/her will?
No. The cancer is a consequence of something bad. Someone made a bad choice at one point and this kid is paying for it.
Sorry, but you really seem hell bent on saying the words 'god respects your free will' whilst simultaneously showcasing the myriad of ways that god does not give a sh*t about free will.  It's pretty clear here that god plain does not give a sh*t about this 6-year old's free will.

Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2014, 02:08:50 PM »
"Punish an innocent child"? Why do you think that it was God's fault?
If you get burned by the fire after putting you hand into it, is it the fire's fault?
If you let your kid outside your home and he got into an accident, is that your fault?

False analogies. In both cases, the person in question did something that put them at risk. In the 6-year-old example, and according to your logic, it was someone else who did something that caused her to get cancer. Another reason why they're false analogies is that fire and humans are not omnipotent or omniscient. In fact, fire isn't even alive.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2014, 02:27:04 PM »
In practical terms, Luk, I really don't see much of a difference.  Is your god really protecting you when you pray, or are you protecting yourself via placebo effect with the prayers putting you in a more positive and self-protective state of mind?

Tried the placebo, didn't work.

I don't know how we can test this statement, particularly after the various discussions in which you brought up love and mathematics as analogous to the existence of your god.  If your god is purely a mental construct with no independent existence outside the minds of believers, it itself *is* a placebo (an entity with no "active ingredient" other than our faith in its efficacy).

That doesn't mean that any old placebo will do, however.  For instance, I've had strong positive reactions to Norse, Greek and Hindu deities but barely any at all to Roman, Celtic or Chinese deities -- And in a sense I'm actually allergic to the Abrahamic god, although not to its Mesopotamian predecessors.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2014, 02:30:07 PM »
No no no. In this particular case no clarification was asked before assuming the worst about me. :(

<sigh> The fault was still initially yours, Luk. If you had originally stated, and I quote, "Of course his suffering is the result of something that he did not do purposely. (like live in a house full of carcinogenic mold)" instead of, and I quote, "the boy is a victim of our sin", there would have been no issue with you in the first place. "Carcinogenic mold" does not equate to "our sin", correct? If your answer is yes, and you can admit that you chose your words poorly in your original statement, then I will gladly retract my negative opinion of you based upon said statement.

Quote
Direct aid, no I agree with you. Direct consent, I disagree. God must give you his consent for you to live. He's the one who created your soul, without it you wouldn't be able to function. You wouldn't be there. That's what I meant when I said I couldn't live/breathe without him. It meant that without him I wouldn't even exist! I have made a difference between without God and without God's help. Do you see it now?

Now that you have clarified your initial comment, I accept your distinction as it applies to yourself. The rest of your explanation, however, has no basis in reality unless evidence is provided to the contrary. Sorry, I flat out reject your opinion, for that is exactly what you have offered.

No in both case God is there next to me...waiting.
It's like if you sprained your heel and I was walking next to you.
Case 1 : "God won't protect me when I don't want him in my life" I won't help you if you don't want any help.
Case 2 : "God does not abandon you when you don't want him" I will still be there next to you even if you don't want any help.
You understand now?

Ok. I see what you meant. I stand corrected that there was no contradiction in your two comments.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:31:59 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2014, 03:19:32 PM »
Isn't that sweet? Punish an innocent child for what someone, somewhere, who might not even be related to her, did, instead of punishing the evildoer. Your god sounds like a real peach. ;)[1]
 1. Just so we're clear, this is sarcasm. Your god (and, by extension, you) is a psychopathic retard.
Only the sower reaps what he has sown. The cycle of violence demands that for every action there is an equal and opposite one. Only true forgiveness is above that law and kills it dead in its tracks. Investigate your own mind to find its power to forgive continuously. The path of the Theists is to love all.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2014, 05:12:08 PM »
Luk, it seems clear that, since you cited Genesis as an example, you take the Old Testament literally
Nope I don't. Sorry.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2014, 05:21:11 PM »
The pope takes the ot seriously, luk knows something about Catholicism the pope doesn't?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2014, 05:22:40 PM »
Person A, B, and C do...something...that causes this 6-year old to get terminal cancer (I dunno...chain smoke around him or some other ill-advised behavior).  God, presumably to respect A, B, and C's choice to do ill-advised things, does not stop them from chain smoking or whatever.  Fine.

Now the 6-year old has this terminal cancer.  Can you please explain to me exactly who's free will is going to be violated if god cures the 6-year old of this terminal cancer?
Person A B and C. Again, don't blame the fire to have burned you when you put your hand into it. The burn is a direct consequence of you putting your hand into the fire. The cancer is a direct consequence of the smoke the kid inhaled.
Could you imagine a world where there would be no consequences?
The guy who wanted to kill me didn't kill so did not go to jail. Heck jail wouldn't even exist.
You're worth more than my time