Author Topic: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?  (Read 2079 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 09:08:56 PM »
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"

That (what you're comparing my argument to) is called the "omnipotence paradox". My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
Yes, I believe they exist.
Your question is using the "omnipotence paradox". It's not because you say otherwise that it doesn't.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 09:09:21 PM »
Sin does not matter as Jesus has paid for ALL sin,if he paid for just a believers sin he wasted his time.

 Has Jesus paid for all sin,yes or no?
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Offline Lectus

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 09:13:25 PM »
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?

He could have created creatures incapable of sinning, yet having free will.

For example, if sex without marriage is a sin he could have made our dicks never work without marriage.

Why complicate with this punishment stuff? We wouldn't need the bible if God's will was embedded in us.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 09:15:44 PM »
how can you control the masses without fear?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 10:17:20 PM »
Has Jesus paid for all sin,yes or no?
Yes. And sins does matter.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2014, 10:24:23 PM »
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?
He did not invent sin.

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He could have created creatures incapable of sinning, yet having free will.

Of course he could. But as I told one above all using the "omnipotence paradox". Its just word play. Sin is the result of free will.
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Why complicate with this punishment stuff? We wouldn't need the bible if God's will was embedded in us.
Punishment? You don't get punished you get the consequence of your acts.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2014, 10:52:27 PM »
Did sin exist before creation?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2014, 11:46:26 PM »
Did sin exist before creation?
The first so sin is Satan and his angels. They said "no" to God. So no, sin was there after the creation of angels.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2014, 12:04:20 AM »
For sin to happen it must be possible in some way. Why did God invent sin anyway?
He did not invent sin.

How do you know this? You believe that the stories in the OT are just stories. It seems logical that God must have created EVERYTHING.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2014, 12:13:14 AM »
Sin is the result of free will.

Things can sin without free will. They have to. The ecosystem is built around kill or be killed. It's a sin when a bunch of bees sting an animal to death. No idiot would say that insects have free will. It's a sin when a fig tree lands on another tree and suffocates it out of existence.

You have defined sin and free will to be what you want them to be.

Please show evidence at any point.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline eh!

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2014, 12:51:17 AM »
Cool sin existed before creation of the universe. did sin exist before creation of the angels?
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2014, 01:15:01 AM »
My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
Theists have been saying the same about God to the atheists for ages. How many actually follow what they told them?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2014, 03:07:31 AM »
Your question is using the "omnipotence paradox". It's not because you say otherwise that it doesn't.

It's not. It's using the definition of omnipotence in a non-paradoxical way. Again, just because you can't conceive of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 03:37:37 AM »
Quote from: Magicmiles
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There is no threat of hell. Hell is a consequence of the choices you make.

No. It is a threat. The concept of hell constitutes an attempt to coerce your actions with the threat of punishment. Fire and brimstone can be a motivator.

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Should we allow killers to kill without putting them to jail?

Jail is what society threatens killers with to try to prevent them from killing. Hell serves the same function. It is clearly a threat designed to coerce desired behaviors.

Your use of the word "consequence" would mean that getting shot would merely be "a consequence" of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do. If that's not a violation of free will, then what is?
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2014, 03:39:14 AM »
Quote from: Magicmiles
<snip>

Which thread is this from? And why are you posting it here?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 08:03:21 AM »
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Yes. He could live in a house full of carcinogenic mold. Not his choice.
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?

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And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Oh he cares a lot. Even More than you do. "The man has more power than the woman" is the key part in this particular case power not free will. And this is evolution right? survival of the fittest? Isn't that why men has more power than women and can force their will unto some of them?
God created Adam and Eve equal, their sin made them different.
Little by little society is growing back to this state when men are equal to women. Don't you agree?
Why did you capitalize the word 'more' above?

Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.

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why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.

That is against the rapist choice a choice that he made freely.
Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

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And you dismiss the question with this answer.

No dismissal. You are talking about stuff that does not exist (yet) these things would exist in a perfect world (like the one of the Eden Garden) But now we don't have them. It's our punishment, living and dying and being "trapped" by laws of physics.
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So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

Freedom of choice. Free to chose. Does that help?
I didn't choose to be 'trapped' by the laws of physics.  I DIDN'T EXIST YET.  According to you, the entirety of humanity is suffering the consequences for actions that none of us had any choice over.  You can claim that god is a supporter of free choice all day long, but you keep coming up with these excuses and defenses that sound like an entity that doesn't give a sh*t about freedom of choice.

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Misfortune happens "like that". I believe that it is the devils work but hey I'm a christian :)
So the devil can do 'bad sh*t' to people against their free will.  Maybe like give a 6-year old terminal cancer or some such.  The devil can do 'bad sh*t' that reduces peoples freedom, like perhaps a debilitating birth defect.  And god does nothing in response.

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Jag

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2014, 08:15:49 AM »
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He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.
On personal experience and testimony.
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?

No.

Now what? Do we need to schedule a time so that I'm paying attention at the right moment, to see if for just a few seconds I believe in your god when you pray for me do so? Should I think really hard about believing in your god at the same time? Experiments are good, let's try a few.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2014, 08:45:04 AM »
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?

Is it really exercising free will if God designed you knowing full well that you would say no to this question at 9:44 Eastern standard time 5/22/2014?  It may appear like free will to you but if it is a forgone conclusion by design then I see no free will exercised.  I only see inescapable destiny.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2014, 09:04:39 AM »
Did sin exist before creation?
The first so sin is Satan and his angels. They said "no" to God. So no, sin was there after the creation of angels.
So, let's get this right:

God makes angels and they rebel. Their sentence is "to continue being immortal and to walk the earth".
God creates man and, because man did not understand sin, he makes man mortal and has a place called "hell".

Well that doesn't seem very fair does it? There's one rule for angels and another for mankind.

Lukvance... you are aware that angels aren't real, aren't you? They are just fairytale beings like dragons, vampires and elves.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2014, 11:37:16 AM »
Sin is the result of free will.
Things can sin without free will. They have to. The ecosystem is built around kill or be killed. It's a sin when a bunch of bees sting an animal to death. No idiot would say that insects have free will. It's a sin when a fig tree lands on another tree and suffocates it out of existence.
You have defined sin and free will to be what you want them to be.
Please show evidence at any point.

I disagree with you. Could you prove what I bold for emphasis in your comment?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »
Cool sin existed before creation of the universe. did sin exist before creation of the angels?

I don't know. But I don't think it's correct to say something like "before" creation of the angels since I believe they were created out of time.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2014, 11:45:28 AM »
The concept of hell constitutes an attempt to coerce your actions with the threat of punishment. Fire and brimstone can be a motivator.
I disagree. Punishment means there is a "punisher". If you put your hand in the fire and get burn. Will you blame the fire to have burn you?

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Your use of the word "consequence" would mean that getting shot would merely be "a consequence" of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do. If that's not a violation of free will, then what is?
Free will of who? The shooter? You seem to forget that there are 2 people involved in a shooting. Being shot is not the consequence of not doing what the guy holding you at gunpoint wants you to do, it's the consequence of the choice the shooter make.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2014, 11:55:13 AM »
I disagree. Punishment means there is a "punisher". If you put your hand in the fire and get burn. Will you blame the fire to have burn you?


if you do something wrong and fire that was formerly obscurred from you suddenly leaps on your hand. I would not blame the fire but rather the guy who causes the fire to be hidden form me and reveals after hundreds of mistakes, at random, sets my hand on fire forever.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2014, 12:02:12 PM »
And god doesn't alleviate this terminal cancer that the 6-year old has because...?
I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.
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Why did you capitalize the word 'more' above?

Sorry , I started the phrase with "more" then added "even" and did not make the change after.
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Regardless, I'm not exactly sure what your point is with the above.  And I'm really not sure that we're using the word 'care' in the same way.  Because if person A would stop a rape in progress and person B would not stop a rape in progress, then I would say that person A was a more caring person than person B.  I'd feel even worse about person B if he told me he wouldn't stop the rape in progress because he wouldn't want to impede on the rapist's free will.
I totally agree with you. We can impose our will unto others. Would it be to attack them (as the rapist did) or to rescue them (against the rapist).
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Which choice?  In my example, god is totally letting the rapist decide to 'rape' or 'not rape'.  That choice isn't being taken away from the rapist.

Well, if the rapist is spoofed away he would not be able to do what he wants to do.
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I'm rather sure that being raped was against the woman's choice, in the same way that I'm rather sure that getting terminal cancer was against the 6-year old's choice.

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2014, 12:40:23 PM »
Sin is any thought word or deed that takes us away from God. So long as we are unaware of God we are living in sin.

Free will is given to the mind (ego) that is talking us away from the state of Love into selfishness, indulgences, ego and duality.

When we follow our individuals mind and its base desires we reap the eternal cycle of those events.

We do this freely we have bad guidance from corrupted parents teachers politicians etc and we suffer that abuse in thought word or deed.
Since we are unaware of the law of cause and effect or are told by atheists that their is no such law we enter into indulgences of the mind willy nilly. We should have no doubt that this law exists and be aware of our thoughts words and deeds that take control over us and observe its negative intent.

When we are loving as taught by the Theists we will reap the love we have sown through our interaction. This is the only way to better our lives now and in the future. Life is eternal, never ending. It is our love for God that takes us back to God. If you love me FOLLOW my commandments. There is no other way to reduce suffering for yourself for your family for your loved ones.
 
The theists of past, present and future continue to bring love, to teach love, and live a life of love so that by example we can copy what they have done and improve our circumstances by being more and more aware.

Sin is what we do that takes us away from God. Free will is about the mind being the controller in the body and not the consciousness or the soul. We need to empower the consciousness to do what it does naturally. Which is Love All.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2014, 01:13:10 PM »
Now what? Do we need to schedule a time so that I'm paying attention at the right moment, to see if for just a few seconds I believe in your god when you pray for me do so? Should I think really hard about believing in your god at the same time? Experiments are good, let's try a few.
I can pray for you to believe in God. If God was interfering without your consent you would be a believer now. That is proof that he does not intervene without your consent.
The experiment I did was the following. For one week I was "open to discussion" with God. Praying and listening to his words. (I couldn't hear anything) During that week if anyone asked me, I was a believer. I started the week with going to the church and finished it after church the next Sunday. Of course being a believer came with things I was not used to like prayer, but it was good stuff anyway nothing that bother other people.
After that week I didn't see or hear God. I didn't feel any different so I gave it another try (one more week), this time, because I heard the Sunday about how if you ask God something he will give it to you, I tested it. Of course I didn't want to ask God for big stuff like the loto or something like that so I ask for small stuff, always involving me but not the others. (I couldn't ask for Emy to be on time for example but I could ask for me to arrive at the same time that she did) I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner. (I often did that back then, would it be my foot or my elbow or some part of my body, I was cutting corners too short) I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2014, 01:24:52 PM »
I remember asking God to prevent me to hit myself on the corner. (I often did that back then, would it be my foot or my elbow or some part of my body, I was cutting corners too short) I asked for one day and 24h I hit myself, so I asked for the week. And it worked.
I did test god for a couple of month and one day I had enough proof to believe that he was the correct one.

Did it ever occur to you that an alternative explanation was that you were simply being more cognizant of and cautious not to hit the corner?

If I am learning to ride a bicycle for the first time and find myself crashing on every attempt, and I pray to a god to keep me from crashing, when I eventually learn to ride the bike without crashing is it more likely due to my prayer being answered or simply because with continued practice I got better at it?
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2014, 01:28:40 PM »
I find this world view...

I will have to look into the case more closely to give you all the reason why he does not cure the boy. Most of the time it is because the boy is a victim of our sin.

...

Me too. They are both victims of someone else sin.

to be absolutley deplorable.  The fact that anyone would punish an innocent for someone else's transgressions is disgusting, and such a being is unworthy of praise.  Period.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2014, 01:33:13 PM »
Is it really exercising free will if God designed you knowing full well that you would say no to this question at 9:44 Eastern standard time 5/22/2014?  It may appear like free will to you but if it is a forgone conclusion by design then I see no free will exercised.  I only see inescapable destiny.
I would agree with you if there wasn't an infinite parallel universe.
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