Author Topic: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?  (Read 2069 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« on: May 21, 2014, 02:20:25 PM »
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world. It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 02:22:59 PM »
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 03:01:48 PM »
So why did he create free will AND sin, like he was taunting us.


is creation amusent or a social experiment for god.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 03:03:17 PM »
Facts according to the christian faithful.

God is all knowing
God is all powerful
God is able to see all things at all times past present and future.
You cant change gods plan

You create something you know everything about it, you set the rules, you enforce the rules, nothing can deviate from your plan, where is free will in there.

If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 03:17:37 PM »
I asked MM if god knew i was going to get dig bit. he made fun of the question if memory serves.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 04:11:31 PM »
Situation 1:

Atheist: Why does God allow evil?
Christian: Free will.
Atheist: but that makes no sense because x, y, z, a, b, c etc etc etc.
Christian: You just don't understand Christianity.

Situation 2:

Christian: Where's the evidence for evolution?
Atheist: Right here.
Christian: but that makes no sense because x, y, z, a, b, c, etc etc etc.
Atheist: You just don't understand evolution.


Quite interesting, isn't it?  :o

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 04:23:53 PM »
He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.

So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 04:31:33 PM »
So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?

You know, this whole "consent" thing sounds like a demon deal from Supernatural. Like how the special children's parents had to give Azazel "permission" to do something. Or how crossroads demons take people's souls if the people give their consent. Angels need consent when taking a host, but they don't give the host anything in return. In fact, from what Jimmy Novak (Castiel's host) said, it's quite unpleasant.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 04:44:55 PM »
So why did he create free will AND sin, like he was taunting us.
is creation amusent or a social experiment for god.
Sin is not a creation. It is the consequence of saying "no" to God.
Creation is neither an amusement nor a social experiment for God. The closest I found to explain on the why God created the universe is the answer to why do we have babies.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 04:45:19 PM »
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed. He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free. He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world. It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?

Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 04:47:49 PM »
Facts according to the christian faithful.

God is all knowing - I agree
God is all powerful - I agree
God is able to see all things at all times past present and future. - I agree
You cant change gods plan - I disagree
My answers in bold.
Quote
You create something you know everything about it, you set the rules, you enforce the rules, nothing can deviate from your plan, where is free will in there.
See the answers above.
Quote
If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?
Yes. There is more than one film.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 04:49:44 PM »
So if I am kidnapped and held hostage in a basement, all I have to do is give my consent to Biblegod and he will help me? Or does the kidnapper also have to give his consent to allow Biblegod to interfere?
Unfortunately the second case. The kidnapper must give his consent too.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 04:50:39 PM »
If we are living in this movie do the characters recorded on film actually have any choice?
Yes. There is more than one film.
I smell a solipsism gambit in the near future...
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 04:51:49 PM »
Unfortunately the second case. The kidnapper must give his consent too.

So by this... "logic", nobody can ever get anything. Ever. Because any action your god undertakes will affect more than one person. In fact, it will affect the entire timeline. Unless "he" chooses not to affect the entire timeline, but still do something, which, as I've said in my first post in this thread, is possible with omnipotence.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jag

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 04:53:00 PM »
The subject come often during the many replies I post. Since the answer is the same, I thought I would create a Thread that I could link to.
My statement is the following.
God is omnipotent indeed.
Ok, whatever. I'll grant this as a given premise for the sake of discussion.

Quote
He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.

Quote
He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.

Same question as above - what is the basis for you to make this assumption? Again, be specific.

Quote
It might not be the case one day, and that day might be the end of the world.

So far, everything you've said is not established as anything other than your opinion, so what "might" happen "someday" is not relevant yet. Let's work on determining if you have any idea what you're talking about NOW before projecting into the future.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 05:04:20 PM »
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?
I believe that you have the answer to these questions.
I will have to underline some of the facts that you might have oversee.
a woman currently being raped is raped by someone who exerted his free will.
Teleportation and defying the laws of physics have not been invented yet, but we are getting there.
The sick and the ill of our society are the results of others (or themselves) free will that has been exerted. (the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)

Quote
Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
I hope this will help understand what I mean by free will.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 05:08:22 PM »
So by this... "logic", nobody can ever get anything. Ever. Because any action your god undertakes will affect more than one person. In fact, it will affect the entire timeline. Unless "he" chooses not to affect the entire timeline, but still do something, which, as I've said in my first post in this thread, is possible with omnipotence.
By default, people say yes to good things. If god propose you something good you can say yes or no. If you say yes you will be happier than if you say no, and people around you will benefit from this joy that you have. Look at Mother Theresa, that's exactly what she did, she said "yes" again and again. And god "used" her to do good in this world.
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 05:11:01 PM »
Outstanding logic luk. i am currently reviewing my atheist position in light of such stellar reasoning.

your logic is impeccable and your thesis both compelling and moving.


you sir are a prophet.
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2014, 05:13:54 PM »
(the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)

People can get lung cancer without smoking, you know.
What in Allah's name is "cancer food"?
Paralyzed people can be born paralyzed, or, such as is the case with Stephen Hawking, be born with a genetic disorder that slowly paralyzes them.

By default, people say yes to good things. If god propose you something good you can say yes or no.

So your god does interfere with free will. Almost nobody in their right mind would reject a proposition from an omnipotent being. That'd be like rejecting a mobster's offer/proposition to... pretty much anything.

If you say yes you will be happier than if you say no, and people around you will benefit from this joy that you have. Look at Mother Theresa, that's exactly what she did, she said "yes" again and again. And god "used" her to do good in this world.

So be selfish. Do things not because they make other people happy, but because they make you happy. Gotcha.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 05:19:24 PM »
Quote
He chose to not interfere directly without our consent in our lives because he created us free.
And you base these assumptions on what? You've listed several of them in a single sentence, and I'm interested n how you determined that they are in fact true. Be specific please.
On personal experience and testimony.
I knew they were true when I put them to the test.
Test of me being created free : I can say no to him. If I wasn't free I couldn't say no to him.
Test of him not interfering without my consent : I have many examples of this in my life. I can give you one. I just prayed that you believed in God right now. Do you believe?
Quote
Quote
He decided that being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
Same question as above - what is the basis for you to make this assumption? Again, be specific.
The old testament tell us about the story of Adam and Eve. God could have remove their freedom and they would never ate the forbidden fruit but he did not. Why? Because being free is more important than all the sin in the world.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 05:24:28 PM »
Does having a gun put to one's head interfere with one's free will?

If yes, how is the threat of hell any different?
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 05:24:59 PM »
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.

Lukvance, I see you ignored this post. Mind explaining why? At first I thought you were replying to posts in a random order, but now I'm thinking something else.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 05:34:23 PM »
Does having a gun put to one's head interfere with one's free will?
If yes, how is the threat of hell any different?
Yes. There is no threat of hell. Hell is a consequence of the choices you make. Like pulling the trigger has for consequence you going to jail. Saying no to God has for consequence you going to hell.
Should we allow killers to kill without putting them to jail?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 05:37:05 PM »
An omnipotent god could eliminate sin while maintaining free will. In fact, an omnipotent god could do anything. The fact that "he" doesn't shows that he's malevolent.
Lukvance, I see you ignored this post. Mind explaining why? At first I thought you were replying to posts in a random order, but now I'm thinking something else.
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 07:57:19 PM »
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.

Amazing how you always manage to boil down a post to its most irrelevant (to the discussion) part.
I showed you why your reasoning was faulty. Omnipotence is not bound by our logic. If your god wanted to make it so that 1 + 1 = 3, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so toilet paper re-grew on an empty roll, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so. Either accept this fact (which would crumble your OP), or debunk it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 08:36:10 PM »
Who has more freedom - a 6-year old with terminal cancer or a 6-year old without terminal cancer?
Who has more freedom - a woman currently being raped or a woman not currently being raped?
Who has more freedom - a man paralyzed from the waist down or a man not paralyzed from the waist down?
Who has more freedom - the woman who can instantly teleport to any location she desires or the woman who cannot instantly teleport to any location she desires?
Who has more freedom - the human being constrained by the laws of physics or the omnipotent god unconstrained by the laws of physics?
I believe that you have the answer to these questions.
I will have to underline some of the facts that you might have oversee.
a woman currently being raped is raped by someone who exerted his free will.
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Secondly, yes.  And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Besides that, what would be wrong with, at the very moment the rapist commits to the act...or, hell, even 100ms after he commits to the act and begins causing harm...why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.  Why bother continuing letting the woman suffer (during the act and for the rest of her life thereafter) beyond that?

Quote
Teleportation and defying the laws of physics have not been invented yet, but we are getting there.
And you dismiss the question with this answer.  I'm beginning to suspect that this is intentional on your part.  The point of the question is to get you to better clarify this 'free' thing you're talking about.  You're using it in a very open-ended manner, and as best as I could tell initially you're referring to 'free' as 'ability to choose to do something - or think something, believe something'.  But essentially 'free' to 'do'.  But I don't think that's what you mean.  Well, I don't think so, because otherwise the obvious answer to this question is that the woman who has the ability to instantly be where she wants to be has many, many more options that she can 'do' over the woman who cannot teleport.  The former woman is free to decide to be on the surface of Neptune.  The woman who cannot teleport is severely constrained in doing that.  At best she can decide to want to go, but she cannot.  She is barred from being on the surface of Neptune.  Teleportation woman is not barred from being on the surface of Neptune - she could be there if she wanted to.

So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

As an aside, I would like to point out that humanity has yet to succeed in defying the laws of physics.  We merely exploit them.  So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that time when we defy the laws of physics.  Perhaps you mean when we get a better understanding of the laws of physics, possibly displacing some of our current understanding of the laws of physics making possible that which we previously thought was not.

Quote
The sick and the ill of our society are the results of others (or themselves) free will that has been exerted. (the terminal cancer women smoke cigarette for example or might have eaten cancer food, the paralyzed jumped from the third floor or might have been pushed from there...etc)
I have to believe that you recognize that misfortune befalls those that do not 'egg it on'.  You know, like birth defects and the like.  I mean, do you recognize that misfortune happens like that, or do you actually believe that everyone is in some way responsible for the bad crap that happens to them?  Because - no sh*t - that's some massive lack of empathy and compassion.

Quote
Quote
Perhaps you need to be more explicit in what you mean by 'free'.
I hope this will help understand what I mean by free will.
Nope.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 08:46:08 PM »
There was no question in there. Only you saying stuff. I usually don't respond to stuff. If you had asked me If I agree I would have said no. If you had ask me why I would have said because me not doing something doesn't mean that I am malevolent.

Amazing how you always manage to boil down a post to its most irrelevant (to the discussion) part.
I showed you why your reasoning was faulty. Omnipotence is not bound by our logic. If your god wanted to make it so that 1 + 1 = 3, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so toilet paper re-grew on an empty roll, "he" could do so. If "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so. Either accept this fact (which would crumble your OP), or debunk it.
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"
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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 08:49:12 PM »
You are playing with words. Have you ever heard the following question : "Could God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" you are doing The same thing with" if "he" wanted to make it so there was no sin, but still maintain freedom, "he" could do so"

That (what you're comparing my argument to) is called the "omnipotence paradox". My argument is not a paradox. Just because we can't conceive of something doesn't make it any less real. A long time ago, we couldn't conceive of atoms or photons. Does that mean they didn't exist?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Since God is almighty why is there sin in the world?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 09:06:29 PM »
First of all, you skipped the 6-year old with terminal cancer example.  I'm sure you have a valid reason for doing so.

Yes. He could live in a house full of carcinogenic mold. Not his choice.
And he is impeding the woman's free will.  She has less free will, and god apparently doesn't really care.

Oh he cares a lot. Even More than you do. "The man has more power than the woman" is the key part in this particular case power not free will. And this is evolution right? survival of the fittest? Isn't that why men has more power than women and can force their will unto some of them?
God created Adam and Eve equal, their sin made them different.
Little by little society is growing back to this state when men are equal to women. Don't you agree?
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why wouldn't god just sorta *poof* the rapist away?  The rapist made and was able to fully decide to act to commit rape.

That is against the rapist choice a choice that he made freely.
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And you dismiss the question with this answer.

No dismissal. You are talking about stuff that does not exist (yet) these things would exist in a perfect world (like the one of the Eden Garden) But now we don't have them. It's our punishment, living and dying and being "trapped" by laws of physics.
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So I think you need to better explain what you mean by 'free'.

Freedom of choice. Free to chose. Does that help?
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As an aside, I would like to point out that humanity has yet to succeed in defying the laws of physics.  We merely exploit them.  So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that time when we defy the laws of physics.  Perhaps you mean when we get a better understanding of the laws of physics, possibly displacing some of our current understanding of the laws of physics making possible that which we previously thought was not.
laws of physics told us one day that there was only 5 elements. They evolved since. People today showing things to people back then would make them tell us that we defy the laws of physics.

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I have to believe that you recognize that misfortune befalls those that do not 'egg it on'.  You know, like birth defects and the like.  I mean, do you recognize that misfortune happens like that, or do you actually believe that everyone is in some way responsible for the bad crap that happens to them?  Because - no sh*t - that's some massive lack of empathy and compassion.
Misfortune happens "like that". I believe that it is the devils work but hey I'm a christian :)
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