Author Topic: My five topics for Christian believers  (Read 1443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline YRM_DM

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Darwins +74/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
My five topics for Christian believers
« on: May 20, 2014, 01:39:22 PM »
Questions to Theists
Some questions from a former believer who asked questions himself, and eventually couldn't reconcile all the excuses I was making for god.   How do you guys find ways to rationalize the following in your heads?   If these questions make sense, and your belief is true, then why aren't there good answers for them?

1 - As you think of people with more experience that you respect (elders, leaders, relatives)... are they more patient, emotionally mature, and understanding than they were when they were younger?    If yes, then why is a god who is at least 6,000 years old, if not 18,000,000,000 years old, if not timeless, emotionally immature in the Bible?   God displays quick temper, jealousy, frustration with far lesser beings that he created, and he's turned on repeatedly by his own creations, which angers him even though if he is omnipotent he'd have known it would happen.   Why?    Why did God drown everyone else on earth during Noah's flood and even murder animals?   Why does the smell of burning animal sacrifice please the nostrils of an 18,000,000 year old giant who made galaxies?

2 - Christians refer to God as the source of all truth, light, and goodness, and refer to the Bible as all the proof they need.   Why does God, in the Bible, punish future generations for the sins of their parents?   Why does God have young virgins claimed as wives under Moses or babies dashed from walls and killed?

3 - Why would the 18,000,0000 year old being who made galaxies be a worse matchmaker than Match.com?    If God has a plan for each of us and all the days of our lives, wouldn't he do better at matching couples instead of worse than every other way possible?

Quote
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented: "While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

4 - By now, you may have mentioned that all good comes from God and we have the free will to mess it up...  if we catch a touchdown in a game, get married, or do good for a charity, all of that came from God, but, if we drop a touchdown, get divorced, or do evil, that all is our fault.

Doesn't this make God sort of like the worst manager you've ever had times 100?    By the above definition, God has all the power to guide us and help us and change anything, fails to do it, gets all the credit for our successes, and takes none of the blame for our failures...

How is the most powerful being in the universe not at all responsible for the evil in the universe?   Didn't he create Satan knowing that he'd get angry when Satan got proud?   Didn't god know he'd throw a temper tantrum, create hell, then create his son who he sacrificed to himself to save us from a place he created?

5 - If the Bible is truth, and we're fools for rejecting that truth, then why doesn't the truth stand up to obvious scientific scrutiny and debate?   Why do Christians run or shut down or follow circular logic?

"God is good because the bible tells me he's real and good... I ignore all the bad stuff that's in there... I know the bible is true because God wrote it and he is good... I know God is real and good because the bible says so... I know the bible is real because God wrote it..."

There's no outside historical record of Jesus.  There's no lasting monument to any miracle.  There's no lasting proof of any miracle.   We know for sure that the bible was re-written and edited over hundreds of years and contains awful things like stoning your own kids to death.

If any one word of the bible is false, then, how do you know which parts are true?   If no words of the bible are false, can I still buy a slave for 30 shekels of silver?   Which is it?

---

If we've come back to, "You should believe because I know god is real, I just know it!   I know his book is true, I just know it..."   Then why is that any better than a follower of Thor suggesting I should believe in Thor because they "just know it"?

Some people "just know" that a lucky horseshoe helps them win bets.   Some people "just know" that crystals help them heal.  Some people "just know" that a psychic can talk to their dead relatives.

All of those things are delusions with the same justification as "you should just believe because it's true and I gave you the truth".

Please understand that, if you've read this far, I know you may be afraid inside to really think about what I'm saying because it could 'hurt your faith'.

But if your faith is based in truth, why would any question be able to hurt it?

The earth rotates around the sun right?   Can any question "hurt" that fact?   No right?  So why can questions so easily hurt someone's true faith?

Could it be because it's not true at all?   If not, what's the explanation?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:43:42 PM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline shnozzola

Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2014, 08:32:35 PM »
........God has all the power to guide us and help us and change anything, fails to do it, gets all the credit for our successes, and takes none of the blame for our failures...

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/05/20/314094632/oklahomas-latino-community-prepares-for-the-next-tornado

^^^^   Here is an NPR article on the experiences of people in Oklahoma living through tornados.  Now please understand, I mean no disrespect for the things these folks have gone through, the horror of the freight train sound, but......

Quote
Last year, Gloria Sanchez didn't have much of a plan — or a storm shelter. When she heard the roaring tornado headed for her neighborhood in Moore, Okla., she decided to seek refuge at the local hospital.
"God helped me a lot, because I made it to the hospital," she explains as tears streak her face.
Winds whipped through the shattered windows of the hospital cafeteria where Sanchez huddled on her knees until the storm passed. When she finally made it back to her home that evening, all she could see was the floor of her home and mounds of broken bricks and two-by-fours.

I understand that at times like these, people lean on society's "god" idea to get us through these things.  But why would god, who gets credit for controlling the weather, send weather that does this damage, and then we pray and thank god for getting us through it, while some don't make it, and then we claim it must be god's plan.  Come on people - we all listen to the tornado sirens, and the weatherman, and do what is necessary to save ourselves.  We don't chant and light candles  (well, most of us) and paint our faces and cast out tornado demons - we get in the basement.

   And then we thank god afterwards for getting us through.   [sigh]
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline dloubet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1368
  • Darwins +66/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • Denisloubet.com
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 10:59:43 PM »
It's like a hideous mashup of Protection Racket and Stockholm Syndrome. It's the shopkeeper that's paid protection money to Al Capone forgiving Al when Al firebombs his shop anyway. WTF?
Denis Loubet

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 11:28:56 PM »
Why does God, in the Bible, punish future generations for the sins of their parents? 

This question in particular is a personal favorite of mine to pose to Christians, as there are barbaric, real world examples to draw comparisons to. Just look at North Korea, where the government imprisons three generations of a political prisoner's family for whatever "crime" he or she is alleged to have committed.

Times that by an infinity of generations and that's what the Dictator know as God considers a "just" punishment. &)
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 11:40:20 PM »
It's pretty simple really.

The OT reveals in sobering detail the extent to which God hates and cannot dwell alongside evil. Throughout, it points to a saviour from this wrath.

The NT introduces us to the saviour, and documents His death, which claims to take away all punishment we have accrued.

Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I've made my choice and I won't ever be swayed from it. Goodnight.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 11:56:47 PM »
Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I'ts really quite simple, really.

Those that prefer to sweep underneath the rug all of the malicious, sadistic, genocidal actions of a God with apparent multiple personality disorder should maybe go and reread the OT to remind themselves just what a true vengeful bastard your "loving and forgiving" NT God was.

I know my mind is made up.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 12:00:05 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 12:15:07 AM »
Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I'ts really quite simple, really.

Those that prefer to sweep underneath the rug all of the malicious, sadistic, genocidal actions of a God with apparent multiple personality disorder should maybe go and reread the OT to remind themselves just what a true vengeful bastard your "loving and forgiving" NT God was.

I know my mind is made up.

Yes. You dislike the character of God. You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do your best and don't do too much wrong, all will be OK. You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse. In short, you prefer to be your own God.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 12:17:24 AM »
It's pretty simple really.

The OT reveals in sobering detail the extent to which God hates and cannot dwell alongside evil. Throughout, it points to a saviour from this wrath.

The NT introduces us to the saviour, and documents His death, which claims to take away all punishment we have accrued.

Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT.

 Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment,

I did have an a-ha moment, when I realised that God's wrath amounts to nothing, because the Hebrews didn't write a religion with punishment in the afterlife.

It's not even possible, because people would not accept a religion where you had to obey all God's commands, and then went to hell.

Heaven and hell have to arrive at the same time, in the same documents.

So, you are lying for God. People could not want for a saviour, for that long, if there was nothing to save them from, besides Romans and Babylonians.

Expectations slowly transformed, during an oral period that was much closer to Christianity. Therefor the saviour expected in early documents was a different type. Had to be,
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 12:18:46 AM »
You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse. In short, you prefer to be your own God.

No, that's exactly what YOU expect.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 12:38:56 AM »
Yes. You dislike the character of God. You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do your best and don't do too much wrong, all will be OK.

There is no "lie" to swallow. It doesn't matter whether I live the life of a saint or go down in history as the most prolific mass-murderer in recorded history, there is nothing but oblivion after death for me to be concerned over. I choose to be as good a person as I can humanly be without having the need of a "carrot" (heaven) dangling before me.

Quote
You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned

Wrong again. I own up to my mistakes and willingly accept whatever punishment is appropriate, unlike those Christians who think a lifetime of breaking commandments can be absolved with a heartfelt plea to Jesus.

Care to make any more false character assumptions?

Quote
but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse.

Which makes me different how from any other person who has been wronged?

Quote
In short, you prefer to be your own God.
Correct. I am my own (lower case) god. So are you. So is everyone else who has ever lived. We create. We destroy. We love. We hate. We forgive. We met out retribution. I think you get the picture.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10965
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 12:50:34 AM »
It's pretty simple really.

The OT reveals in sobering detail the extent to which God hates and cannot dwell alongside evil. Throughout, it points to a saviour from this wrath.

The NT introduces us to the saviour, and documents His death, which claims to take away all punishment we have accrued.

Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I've made my choice and I won't ever be swayed from it. Goodnight.

It's pretty simple, really.

The OT reveals in sobering detail the extent to which the writers were high. Throughout, it points to massive amounts of very potent drugs to having been taken.

The NT introduces us to marijuana, and documents its effects, which are clearly giddiness.

Those that obsess over the wrath of God (sic) and His (sic) clear justice should maybe think about what happens in the OT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on cherry-picking minor details of the story which add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about atheists.

I've made my choice and I won't ever be swayed from it. Good morning.


Version #2:

It's pretty simple really.

Yes it is.

The OT reveals in sobering detail the extent to which God hates and cannot dwell alongside evil. Throughout, it points to a saviour from this wrath.

So hate is a good thing? Huh. Fancy that. I always thought hate (the desire to murder things) was a bad thing. Well, I guess you can't argue with sand dwellers who wanted to control everyone with their made-up religion an all-knowing and all-hating entity.

The NT introduces us to the saviour, and documents His death, which claims to take away all punishment we have accrued.

So everyone who sinned after this "saviour"'s death is fucked?

Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT.

You mean like the part about Jesus saying that the OT is still valid? Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others.

Perhaps you will too.

Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you.

Those are actually the major points. YHWH is all-loving, yet it hates just about everything. YHWH created light before there was a source for that light. YHWH made a woman out of a rib from a man made out of dust. YHWH created evil, then bitches about what that evil did. YHWH said the moon was its own source of light. YHWH is said to never lie, yet it lies throughout the Bible.

And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I bet you just piss your pants in laughter whenever you see that "Atheism: The belief that there was nothing (...)" BS.

I've made my choice and I won't ever be swayed from it. Goodnight.

Such an open mind!
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10965
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 12:56:02 AM »
You dislike the character of God. You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do your best and don't do too much wrong, all will be OK. You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse. In short, you prefer to be your own God.

You dislike the idea of atheism. You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do whatever the fuck you want, then repent on your deathbed, all will be OK. You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse. In short, you prefer to be your own God (sic).

Version #2:

You dislike the character of God.

There's a reason for that. Read the Bible some time.
Also, like you don't dislike The Emperor (Star Wars guy).

You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do your best and don't do too much wrong, all will be OK.

Like you do, only your version ends with "repent on your deathbed" or "believe in Jesus" or some other magic spell you believe will "cleanse" your "soul" or whatever.

You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse.

Projecting much? Whose beliefs include a guy whose sacrifice "washed away" all your "sins" (whatever that means)? Whose beliefs include a god who punishes non-believers for no other reason than the fact they are non-believers? Whose beliefs include a god who will come down, kill pretty much everyone and everything, toss all those into Hell, then make the Earth "perfect" (whatever that means) for all its followers to live on?[1]

In short, you prefer to be your own God.

Like every theist in the Universe. Ever heard of SPAG?
 1. This may not be one of yours. I get confused with BS. It all smells and looks like shit to me.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 01:16:14 AM »
One last thing before I go to sleep, MM:

One very big pet peeve of mine is hearing Christians such as yourself attempt to gloss over the horrific shit perpetuated by your God with a "stop dwelling on the OT" attitude. Sorry, I'm too busy recalling all of the first born sons of Egypt (how many infants and young children do you think that included?) that had to die in order for Him to get His point across.

Oh, and in my opinion your "Savior" got off light compared to the countless and various barbaric methods your God employed to met out justice throughout the OT.

And one last thing so as not to create a misunderstanding: I am not angry at your God, for there is no God IMO to be angry towards. I am angry at those Christians who don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit that "yeah, He did some pretty sadistic shit back then".
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline YRM_DM

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Darwins +74/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 08:32:19 PM »
Those that obsess over the wrath of God and His seeming injustice should maybe think more about what happens in the NT. Perhaps you'll have an "a-ha" moment, like so many others. Or perhaps you'll concentrate more on discussing minor details of the story which don't quite add up to you. And chuckle over internet memes about shellfish.

I'ts really quite simple, really.

Those that prefer to sweep underneath the rug all of the malicious, sadistic, genocidal actions of a God with apparent multiple personality disorder should maybe go and reread the OT to remind themselves just what a true vengeful bastard your "loving and forgiving" NT God was.

I know my mind is made up.

Yes. You dislike the character of God. You prefer to swallow the lie that if you do your best and don't do too much wrong, all will be OK. You expect every wrong thing you have ever done to be ignored and pardoned, but at the same time you demand justice and punishment of those whose offences you deem worse. In short, you prefer to be your own God.

Well, doesn't it say that not one word of God's ultimate truth will pass away until Jesus comes again?

I was a Christian for decades.

Anyway... we look at the NT.   It is significantly better than the OT... but isn't the whole Bible supposed to be true and perfect?

Isn't Jesus a sacrifice that God created to appease himself because us burning animals wasn't good enough?  To save us from a place that he created, where he sent an angel that he created who turned bad?

If Jesus doesn't mind standing up for humanity and truth, which, he clearly didn't right?  Then why not speak a word against slavery?

He heals a guy's slave and never says a word about it.

He never speaks up against women being second class citizens either.

He doesn't come out and call BS on the Old Testament stories of God ordering Moses to kill women and little kids except for the young virgins.

He doesn't come out and say anything that holds up in scientific practice today, things that would be able to be verified.

So to you... because we don't believe in something that has absolutely no verification except a book which you admit the first 3/4 are to be glossed over in favor of the last 1/4...   you think it's reasonable to torture people for eternity?

You don't believe in Leprachons right?   But they are also in many books...    what if you're wrong and a big green god lives at the end of a rainbow and will bury us all in a pot of gold for eternity?

Silly right?   But if 3/4 of the bible are to be glossed over, how do I know any of it is true either?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 08:49:57 PM »


If Jesus doesn't mind standing up for humanity and truth, which, he clearly didn't right?  Then why not speak a word against slavery?

He heals a guy's slave and never says a word about it.

He never speaks up against women being second class citizens either.

He doesn't come out and call BS on the Old Testament stories of God ordering Moses to kill women and little kids except for the young virgins.

He doesn't come out and say anything that holds up in scientific practice today, things that would be able to be verified.


Kind of surprising believers and non-believers alike spend so much time discussing Him 2000 years later, really. He should have faded into obscurity a long time ago.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4598
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 09:19:55 PM »
MM how do you dismiss the OT explanation of Yahweh being a god and not the god?

 Yahweh did not become the god until early Christians made him the god.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Eddie Schultz

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 12:06:44 AM »
MM how do you dismiss the OT explanation of Yahweh being a god and not the god?

 Yahweh did not become the god until early Christians made him the god.

YRM_DM, welcome to the world of rational thinkers, and skeptics.

As for what 12 Monkeys said, this video hits on the history of god very well.



I think to myself, when a christian watches videos like this, from ex christians, why do they just stick with their belief in the christian god as if it's something unique? Is it the fear of hell that keeps them from swaying from their belief? Care to tell us, MM, or any other believers who vow to never be swayed?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:09:51 AM by Eddie Schultz »

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 01:38:25 AM »
Kind of surprising believers and non-believers alike spend so much time discussing Him 2000 years later, really. He should have faded into obscurity a long time ago.

I think he should have, too, like Mohammad. The trouble is that these modern religions have texts and "inerrancy" dogmas that are kept alive by fanatics.

The key to understanding why these beliefs survive, is education. The religions do their bit to suppress inquiry against religion, but ultimately, to dismiss religion, you have to be pretty educated. Not only smart enough to understand how the meme works, but to be totally sure about the cunning bluffs that you will encounter. But, like an arms race, when religion gets rejected, a clever person will find a way of adapting it against the questions it encounters. Where Islam did not make a mistake was in endorsing the Old Testament. By doing that, Christianity got a shot in the arm, for take-off, but it's very hard to reconcile the Old Testament with reality, if you have a post-Darwin mind. Islam has a few problems in its texts, but it's much more of a generic superstition, so it might be able to destroy Christianity, if education and wealth levels fall. However, I suppose if Islam manages to destroy wealth and education, Christianity could make a come-back.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 02:01:54 AM »
Kind of surprising believers and non-believers alike spend so much time discussing Him 2000 years later, really. He should have faded into obscurity a long time ago.

Yes, this myth should have. But if it wasn't this myth it'd be some other nonsense and we'd be on here telling you that Odin or Zeus wasn't real. If a Muslim pitches up I'll tell him that his god is nonsense, if a Hindu wants to tell us that their gods are real he'll get the same message.

It's not just your imaginary god we discuss MM, we discuss all imaginary gods.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline YRM_DM

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Darwins +74/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 08:55:49 AM »


If Jesus doesn't mind standing up for humanity and truth, which, he clearly didn't right?  Then why not speak a word against slavery?

He heals a guy's slave and never says a word about it.

He never speaks up against women being second class citizens either.

He doesn't come out and call BS on the Old Testament stories of God ordering Moses to kill women and little kids except for the young virgins.

He doesn't come out and say anything that holds up in scientific practice today, things that would be able to be verified.


Kind of surprising believers and non-believers alike spend so much time discussing Him 2000 years later, really. He should have faded into obscurity a long time ago.

Greek, Roman & Egyptian Gods were worshipped for thousands of years too.   The major religions that are left are the ones that ultimately won the wars and wrote the history books and burned the rest of the books.

Islam has been around for a long time and Mohammed hasn't faded into obscurity.   Many religions haven't faded into obscurity but we know that Islam isn't "real" because we know Mohammed didn't ride a winged horse to heaven and we can see the hypocrisy in those cultures and it's really obviously a delusion.

It harder to see that Christianity is a delusion because it's more progressive at this point in history than Islam is, and we live in the middle of the bubble.   But it's just as silly to think a guy walked on water or rose from the dead as rode a winged horse.

Not sure how long the human sacrifice religions of the Aztecs lasted... but it was centuries too.

If you lived in a certain period of history, you might say, "It's proof that the Egyptian gods are real, or else why would the leaders spent all this time and our effort building these pyramids?   These beliefs have been around for centuries and haven't faded so, they must be true."
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1528
  • Darwins +101/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 09:13:20 PM »
Quote

1 - As you think of people with more experience that you respect (elders, leaders, relatives)... are they more patient, emotionally mature, and understanding than they were when they were younger?    If yes, then why is a god who is at least 6,000 years old, if not 18,000,000,000 years old, if not timeless, emotionally immature in the Bible?   God displays quick temper, jealousy, frustration with far lesser beings that he created, and he's turned on repeatedly by his own creations, which angers him even though if he is omnipotent he'd have known it would happen.   Why?    Why did God drown everyone else on earth during Noah's flood and even murder animals?   Why does the smell of burning animal sacrifice please the nostrils of an 18,000,000 year old giant who made galaxies?

For me, these writings are an attempt by various people to explain what it is like to experience God.  The flood story, for me anyway, is a monotheistic spin on the flood myth common in many societies.  Understand, I am using the word "myth" in the older sense of being a story to explain the unexplainable.   

Quote
2 - Christians refer to God as the source of all truth, light, and goodness, and refer to the Bible as all the proof they need.   Why does God, in the Bible, punish future generations for the sins of their parents?   Why does God have young virgins claimed as wives under Moses or babies dashed from walls and killed?

My take on the punishment of future generations goes back to what I wrote earlier about people writing of their understanding of God.  I suspect they genuinely felt this was what God intended. 

Regarding the babies dashed from walls, am I correct in thinking you are reference Psalm 137?

Quote
3 - Why would the 18,000,0000 year old being who made galaxies be a worse matchmaker than Match.com?    If God has a plan for each of us and all the days of our lives, wouldn't he do better at matching couples instead of worse than every other way possible?

Intriguing observation.  I don't see God as the ultimate puppet master so don't know how to respond. 

Quote
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented: "While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

Very good point. 

Quote
4 - By now, you may have mentioned that all good comes from God and we have the free will to mess it up...  if we catch a touchdown in a game, get married, or do good for a charity, all of that came from God, but, if we drop a touchdown, get divorced, or do evil, that all is our fault.

Doesn't this make God sort of like the worst manager you've ever had times 100?    By the above definition, God has all the power to guide us and help us and change anything, fails to do it, gets all the credit for our successes, and takes none of the blame for our failures...

How is the most powerful being in the universe not at all responsible for the evil in the universe?   Didn't he create Satan knowing that he'd get angry when Satan got proud?   Didn't god know he'd throw a temper tantrum, create hell, then create his son who he sacrificed to himself to save us from a place he created?

Personally, I don't believe in the existence of the Satan as described.  I tend to agree with Rabbi Harold Kushner (author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People").  Here is a link which pretty sums up his theology.  http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Suffering_and_Evil/Responses/Modern_Solutions/When_Bad_Things_Happen.shtml


Quote
5 - If the Bible is truth, and we're fools for rejecting that truth, then why doesn't the truth stand up to obvious scientific scrutiny and debate?   Why do Christians run or shut down or follow circular logic?

"God is good because the bible tells me he's real and good... I ignore all the bad stuff that's in there... I know the bible is true because God wrote it and he is good... I know God is real and good because the bible says so... I know the bible is real because God wrote it..."

There's no outside historical record of Jesus.  There's no lasting monument to any miracle.  There's no lasting proof of any miracle.   We know for sure that the bible was re-written and edited over hundreds of years and contains awful things like stoning your own kids to death.

If any one word of the bible is false, then, how do you know which parts are true?   If no words of the bible are false, can I still buy a slave for 30 shekels of silver?   Which is it?

For me, the Bible is a book of faith.  As such, I don't see why it needs to be seen as an encyclopedia or an almanac.

It is my understanding there is some historical record of Jesus outside the New Testament writings but the sources are controversial.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

How come understanding the Bible is an either/or?   

---

Quote
If we've come back to, "You should believe because I know god is real, I just know it!   I know his book is true, I just know it..."   Then why is that any better than a follower of Thor suggesting I should believe in Thor because they "just know it"?

Some people "just know" that a lucky horseshoe helps them win bets.   Some people "just know" that crystals help them heal.  Some people "just know" that a psychic can talk to their dead relatives.

All of those things are delusions with the same justification as "you should just believe because it's true and I gave you the truth".

Please understand that, if you've read this far, I know you may be afraid inside to really think about what I'm saying because it could 'hurt your faith'.

But if your faith is based in truth, why would any question be able to hurt it?

The earth rotates around the sun right?   Can any question "hurt" that fact?   No right?  So why can questions so easily hurt someone's true faith?

Could it be because it's not true at all?   If not, what's the explanation?

Personally, I don't think questions hurt one's faith at all.   This website has been invaluable to me in helping to realize what I believe and why. 

In all fairness, just because I believe God exists, does not mean I have a monopoly on truth or facts.  It may very well be that I am embracing a delusion.  I don't think so, but I can't totally rule out the idea. 

Wishing I had the perfect answers I remain,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Eddie Schultz

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 10:19:16 PM »

 In all fairness, just because I believe God exists, does not mean I have a monopoly on truth or facts.  It may very well be that I am embracing a delusion.  I don't think so, but I can't totally rule out the idea. 

Wishing I had the perfect answers I remain,

OldChurchGuy

OCG, I don't know if you've seen the video above, "A History Of God" made by an ex believer in the god you believe exists? But if you have seen it, why do you dismiss the gods that came before the god you believe exists, Jesus who you said you believe is god incarnate? Have you researched gods that came way before the god you believe exists?

What would it take for you to rule out the idea that you may very well be delusional in your belief?

Thanks for your time.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1528
  • Darwins +101/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014, 07:02:33 AM »

 In all fairness, just because I believe God exists, does not mean I have a monopoly on truth or facts.  It may very well be that I am embracing a delusion.  I don't think so, but I can't totally rule out the idea. 

Wishing I had the perfect answers I remain,

OldChurchGuy

OCG, I don't know if you've seen the video above, "A History Of God" made by an ex believer in the god you believe exists? But if you have seen it, why do you dismiss the gods that came before the god you believe exists, Jesus who you said you believe is god incarnate? Have you researched gods that came way before the god you believe exists?

What would it take for you to rule out the idea that you may very well be delusional in your belief?

Thanks for your time.

FINALLY got around to watching this.  Very interesting and follows Armstrong's book very well.  Have you read the book?  I read it some years ago and found it very enlightening.

I don't dismiss the other gods so much as I believe the polytheistic societies were also trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  They simply used multiple gods to explain the experience.  Can I prove that belief?  No.  Do I need to prove that belief?  No, since I am not presenting that belief as something that others must accept as true.

I have no idea what it would take for me to conclude I am delusional as a theist.  Frankly, I am happy as a theist and, since I try not to present my theism as irrefutable fact, why does my theism seem to bother you?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1351
  • Darwins +96/-11
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2014, 04:21:25 AM »
I've made my choice and I won't ever be swayed from it. Goodnight.

Someone thinks he knows all the answers.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1396
  • Darwins +51/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2014, 04:53:57 AM »
Hey FF, good to see you posting again.
Signature goes here...

Offline Eddie Schultz

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 02:56:30 PM »

 In all fairness, just because I believe God exists, does not mean I have a monopoly on truth or facts.  It may very well be that I am embracing a delusion.  I don't think so, but I can't totally rule out the idea. 

Wishing I had the perfect answers I remain,

OldChurchGuy



OCG, I don't know if you've seen the video above, "A History Of God" made by an ex believer in the god you believe exists? But if you have seen it, why do you dismiss the gods that came before the god you believe exists, Jesus who you said you believe is god incarnate? Have you researched gods that came way before the god you believe exists?

What would it take for you to rule out the idea that you may very well be delusional in your belief?

Thanks for your time.

FINALLY got around to watching this.  Very interesting and follows Armstrong's book very well.  Have you read the book?  I read it some years ago and found it very enlightening.

I don't dismiss the other gods so much as I believe the polytheistic societies were also trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  They simply used multiple gods to explain the experience.  Can I prove that belief?  No.  Do I need to prove that belief?  No, since I am not presenting that belief as something that others must accept as true.

I have no idea what it would take for me to conclude I am delusional as a theist.  Frankly, I am happy as a theist and, since I try not to present my theism as irrefutable fact, why does my theism seem to bother you?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Thank you for the answer. No, I haven't read her book, but read some articles about the book.

I guess my point is that man has made up gods for quite a long time, so why hold on to the idea that your god is real? I don't care if a person wants to believe in a god, but to do it because it makes you feel good doesn't seem like a good reason.

Ancient peoples made up gods because they didn't have answers to all the things that were going on, earthquakes, lightning, hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, etc... Science has solved most things that people didn't know anything about, therefore man doesn't need to believe in gods anymore. Unless of course in your case, it makes you feel happy.

If I was a theist I would try to present my belief as irrefutable fact, if I couldn't why should I believe it?

 "In the words of Matt Dillahunty : “I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible”. That’s as good a goal as any, I think." Adam Emanon

Thanks

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1528
  • Darwins +101/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 06:58:27 PM »
Quote

Thank you for the answer. No, I haven't read her book, but read some articles about the book.

I guess my point is that man has made up gods for quite a long time, so why hold on to the idea that your god is real? I don't care if a person wants to believe in a god, but to do it because it makes you feel good doesn't seem like a good reason.

Ancient peoples made up gods because they didn't have answers to all the things that were going on, earthquakes, lightning, hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, etc... Science has solved most things that people didn't know anything about, therefore man doesn't need to believe in gods anymore. Unless of course in your case, it makes you feel happy.

If I was a theist I would try to present my belief as irrefutable fact, if I couldn't why should I believe it?

 "In the words of Matt Dillahunty : “I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible”. That’s as good a goal as any, I think." Adam Emanon

Thanks

As shared elsewhere on this website, I've had experiences in my life which I choose to chalk up to evidence of God's existence. 

This particular website is quite willing to accept my interpretations if I can provide some proof.  Unfortunately, there is no chant, incantation, prayer or string of sounds which will consistently produce an entity which can be seen and measured and identified as God. 

So, since I believe in God's existence but am not able to provide an empirical evidence of this belief I see myself as faced with the choice of remaining a theist or becoming an atheist.  I've tried atheism in the past and always felt "empty" even when trying it for about a month. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy 
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1746
  • Darwins +185/-7
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 08:18:05 PM »
So, since I believe in God's existence but am not able to provide an empirical evidence of this belief I see myself as faced with the choice of remaining a theist or becoming an atheist.  I've tried atheism in the past and always felt "empty" even when trying it for about a month. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Sigh.

OldChurchGuy, I like you, I really do. I have respect for your almost endless courtesy and think that you are an intelligent man. And with that in mind, I still have to say the paragraph quoted above is absolute nonsense.

Beliefs do not have an on/off switch - either you believe something or you don't. How do you "try" atheism? If you believe in a god of any sort, by definition you are not an atheist, and I cannot for the life of me imagine how you can "try atheism" like it's a shirt you're thinking of buying. 

I'm not saying that you are lying, but if you think that you can just shrug beliefs on and off - or worse, that WE can - then you still have no clue what we're talking about here. It's not my intention to be hurtful to you, but I'm kind of floored that you said (and presumably believe) this.

Shortest version possible - belief or lack thereof is not a choice.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2572
  • Darwins +51/-423
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: My five topics for Christian believers
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2014, 09:22:19 PM »
So, since I believe in God's existence but am not able to provide an empirical evidence of this belief I see myself as faced with the choice of remaining a theist or becoming an atheist.  I've tried atheism in the past and always felt "empty" even when trying it for about a month. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Sigh.

OldChurchGuy, I like you, I really do. I have respect for your almost endless courtesy and think that you are an intelligent man. And with that in mind, I still have to say the paragraph quoted above is absolute nonsense.

Beliefs do not have an on/off switch - either you believe something or you don't. How do you "try" atheism? If you believe in a god of any sort, by definition you are not an atheist, and I cannot for the life of me imagine how you can "try atheism" like it's a shirt you're thinking of buying. 

I'm not saying that you are lying, but if you think that you can just shrug beliefs on and off - or worse, that WE can - then you still have no clue what we're talking about here. It's not my intention to be hurtful to you, but I'm kind of floored that you said (and presumably believe) this.

Shortest version possible - belief or lack thereof is not a choice.

So if belief is not a choice, how do you expect theists to become atheists?

You walked right into that conundrum.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)