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God sacrificed his son.
« on: May 19, 2014, 01:59:08 PM »
Sacrifice is usually made to someone, So god sacrificed his son to himself to cleanse sin.

How does sacrificing your own kid/self to yourself cleanse sin?  Why the hell would you write that rule into law?



The whole animal sacrifice rule also is somewhat bizzare to begin with.  What does the murder and waste of a perfectly good animal have to do with sin.

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 02:47:14 PM »
It shows how much god loves us. And the sin he gave us in the curse due to the apple incident in the garden if eden was now lifted that is soooooo loving.

he lifted the curse he gave us for something we did not do by creating another version of himself to kill as an offering yo himself for adam and eves sin.  that is sooooooo loving.


Does that answer your question??
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 02:56:52 PM »
Well, good question! I wonder if we will get any answers from theists.  Meanwhile, I'll try and answer it without it turning into a farce.

Firstly, according to Chalcedon and Nicea, there is only one godhead though there are three persons within that godhead. So, technically, the question is worse than you thought - god sacrificed himself to himself to persuade himself to forgive sin[1] However, we might reasonably ask if that is what god was up to.

The first place in which this comes in the biblical text is in Paul. He compares the first man, Adam who sinned with Jesus, another man who showed staying clear of sin could be done. In a theological idea knows as Recapitulation, Everyone born from Adam dies, but those born (again) of Jesus live. Jesus has put things right. Christians rejoice in this, naturally, without really thinking it through.

I would argue that rather than the vicarious death of Jesus, Paul is alluding to the idea of Jesus showing what can be done and providing men with another chance[2] but it is the gospels who come up with more of the theology we know and hate today - Jesus dying for the sins of all people.

Why I can't say, but the whole Jesus story in the NT seems to leave the writers with the problem of putting the theology over, or at least getting into a coherent form. Thus they draw on OT passages - anything really that can just about be linked to Jesus to try and explain what they want to explain. Thus they come across the idea of transferring sins to a goat that is driven off into the desert carrying the people's sins. This sounded a good concept and thus is was transferred to Jesus. The writers only knew forgiveness via a sacrifice, apparently,  though many Psalms and Jeremiah say so. This is where the disputes over the nature of Jesus came in.

To die for all sins, Jesus would have to be god - a lesser being wouldn't cut it. Yet to show that living sin free was possible, Jesus had to be a man. Thus was born the problem of Jesus to natures that lasted some 400 years in being solved - quaintly be restating the question.

Anyway, if one sees the message to live a sin free life, then the man Jesus shows it to one and Jesus has no need to be god and monotheism is preserved. On the other hand, if one accepts the gospel ideas of sacrifice, then it is a man-made idea that Jesus has to be god and the problems of the Trinity resulting are enough to blow anyone's brains apart.
 1. Sorry, it starting to look like farce already.
 2. though it's a shame for those who died before Jesus arrived
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 10:02:31 AM »
No theist takers???

Come on what the hell man this is a good question.

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 11:36:32 AM »
Don't forget that God created everything... so he created the angels that got proud, and he was jealous that the angels thought they were as good as him, so, he cast them into a place he created called hell... he was so angry at the humans he created, that he cast aside all other tribes and eventually drowned everyone on earth except Noah, and then after that, even the inbred new race of humans couldn't burn enough animals to please God's nostrils, so he created his son to torture and kill as a sacrifice to himself to save us from a place he created if we didn't believe in something that he provided no scientific proof of.

Did I get that right?

Be back later... I'm going to go find some girls who haven't laid with a man and make them my wives as Moses commanded.

Thank goodness the Bible is all the proof we need...

</sarcasm>
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 11:44:59 AM »
^ skimmed over some details but basically right.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 01:04:41 PM »

To die for all sins, Jesus would have to be god - a lesser being wouldn't cut it.
The criterion was that he had to be "the Son of God"

The change from polytheism to monotheism based itself, amongst other things, on the rejection of earlier human sacrifice involving such gods as Milcom and Chemosh. This is a theme that comes up several times in the OT. When monotheism was established, so was the idea of the abhorrence of human sacrifice. which is most clearly shown in the defeat of God by the "Powerful Magic" of Chemosh:

Nu:21:29: Woe to thee, Moab!  thou art undone, O people of Chemosh: he hath given his sons that escaped, and his daughters, into captivity unto Sihon king of the Amorites.

2Ki:3:26: And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too sore for him, he took with him seven hundred men that drew swords, to break through even unto the king of Edom: but they could not.
2Ki:3:27: Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall.  And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.


Given (i) this absolute horror at human sacrifice, and (ii) the story of Jephthah's daughter, and (iii) Jesus dropping heavy hints that he was Yahweh's son, then, to the Israelite, if he believed this story, this sacrifice was the final, most awful deed that a god could do by way of proof that Jesus was indeed His son - He had sacrificed His son as The King of the Moabites had done!

It seems nobody, until quite recently, questioned to whom the sacrifice was made. It was often said that "it was for us" but who was it supposed to impress?

The King of Moab killed his son to impress Chemosh... Yahweh killed his son to impress...? Mankind? Why did a sacrifice need to be made, Yahweh could have done a hundred things to "impress Mankind" at any time.

Also, the further propaganda has the failing that if Jesus were a god, He was immortal and never died anyway. A point upon which heretics were regularly burned.



« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:06:15 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 01:58:19 PM »
All good points! I'd say the answers depend on the belief of the answerer.

To my way of thinking, as an atheist, I see the death of Jesus was just bad luck for him at Roman justice, which was inclined to kill first and ask afterwards. So I see Jesus as having been killed because of attracting followers to Jerusalem around him and looking like he might make trouble. Now, whilst I can hear the furious typing of theists, I have to say that the ordinary people of Jerusalem would likely have thought the same. Their monotheism was such that that they would not have accepted any other gods or sons of gods for that matter.

Now for the disciples, and in reality we don't know a lot about them despite the gospels, things would have looked different. They would have seen a greater man than they had know before - one committed to a faith  freed of the burdens the Jewish temple imposed. So when he was killed they would have been shattered. Neither I now, or them at the time, thought there was anything more to say but obviously some of them thought they saw Jesus - like bereaved people sometimes see a dead person in their favourite armchair - and talk got going that Jesus might not be dead. It will have dawned on them that rather than an end, there as a possible continuation of the mission they had been on. The trouble is that theology always follows beliefs and then has to make its logic fit what people already thought.

Paul was  the first contender into the ring as he tried to make some logical sense of the events he was told about. Then the gospels were written and they tried in various ways to make sense of things. I'd say there was a serious problem with ordinary believers who though Jesus was god and not a prophet but that made the theology harder. Paul's linking of Adam, the sinner, and Jesus the non-sinner was the first real attempt.  Later the gospels got into talking about atonement for sins and, whilst human sacrifice was ruled out in Judaism, the death of a god incarnate would not have been ruled out and for the various missions Paul is supposed to have started it would not have been a problem at all. Of course, the gospel writers waded through OT texts and found what they wanted - the sacrifice system in the temple where a death - blood - is needed for sins to be forgiven. Scale up to the sins of all humankind and, clearly, it has to be a god that dies.

Now sacrifices were made to god, YHVH, who, ultimately forgave the sins. Obviously, Jesus sacrifice was to YHVH for the price of the sins of humanity, Yet this is where prior belief got mixed up with trying to make theology. The crowds wanted Jesus to be a god yet a god sacrificing himself to himself wasn't ever a runner. Hence anything that declared the parts of the Trinity were aspects of one god were declared heresies. The only surviving way they could get round the problem was the there were 3 separate gods so that one could offer himself to another. Yet that wasn't right either to maintain monotheism. The real solution was found until 325 and Nicea where 'of one substance' was sued to describe how the 3 separate 'persons' were one god.

Sorry, this has been awfully wordy but theology gets that way and takes that long too!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline dloubet

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 11:21:29 PM »
My first question when people talk about the sacrifice of Jesus is, "So, is Jesus dead?"

If they say no, then I can only reply, "Then what sacrifice are you talking about?"
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 11:28:10 PM »
My first question when people talk about the sacrifice of Jesus is, "So, is Jesus dead?"

If they say no, then I can only reply, "Then what sacrifice are you talking about?"

Go watch Passion of the Christ and get back to me. Maybe watch the crucifixion scene a  few times over.
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 11:33:44 PM »
Yet to show that living sin free was possible, Jesus had to be a man.

This is where my suspicious hackles go up, because Jesus never said anywhere that he was living sin free. He says he's not good. If he wanted to show that he was living sin free, then he should have lived a full life, with marriage and run a business. Instead, he appears in Capernaum, tells other people how to live their lives and then gets killed. If he sinned in this short life, then the church would have just wiped it out.

It's all because Christians want to pretend that Jesus "fulfilled" the law, because the Church decided that they could reinterpret and re-translate that statement, to fit with Paul.

I don't know how much clearer the Jerusalem Christians could have expressed the concept, but the Catholic Church still managed to fudge around it, and make it look like the law had been abolished. What they couldn't fudge around was Matt 5:19-20. That was just one clause in the contract that was a little too clear.



 
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 11:36:03 PM »
Go watch Passion of the Christ and get back to me. Maybe watch the crucifixion scene a  few times over.

It's not necessarily a sacrifice. It could just be a guy getting tortured and dying. Your theology puts "sacrifice for your sins onto it". Another theology could see the resurrection as important, since it proves that Jesus was above humans, and then able to dispense stricter laws upon Jews.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 02:54:56 AM »
Yes, watching a film will show us a dramatic representation of the crucifixion but it won't be anything like what really happened. The various elements - sign on top of the cross, Jesus reciting biblical texts, earthquakes - none of it would have been there. It would juts have been a Roman crucifixion and the Romans were good at them. All the familiar elements in the gospels, reflected in the film, were added a couple of generations later by people who did  not know what happened.

Besides all that, there is a good point being made here. How much of a sacrifice is it to give up three days of life for a god that is eternal? Even if the story was completely  true, which, oddly I don't accept, Jesus spends a day on the cross, three days dead and then he' back for ever.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 03:54:37 AM »
Question - how is that xtians claim jesus was a regular mortal then speak of him performing miracles eg the loaves of bread /fish thing, water into wine..... etc, etc.

clearly not that mortal?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 04:22:30 AM »
Well, the Christian answer is the Jesus had two natures - a god nature and a human nature. In fact the doctrine is that Jesus had to be fully man to have living a human life, but he also had to be fully god to make a great enough sacrifice to pay of the sins of the world. Of course, things are never so simple....

The problems the Fathers of the Church had to wrestle with concerning the natures of Jesus rattled on until 450CE and Chalcedon when everything was carefully put into a creed. The problems centred around how  Jesus could be wholly god but live a human life with a human nature - for example what happened to the god nature; did it sleep while Jesus was human/ Of course lots of questioning like this gets no one anywhere as there are no answers but the Greek Fathers didn't mind that - I think that just like arguing. (They would have done well on modern forums!)

So the answer is that Jesus called on his god nature to do miracles but the rest of the time used only his human nature.



So... now nearly everyone has gone to have coffee to clear their heads, how about an alternative answer. how about if we consider if he did any miracles at all. What's the evidence - gospel written tow generations after him by people who were not eyewitnesses. Some of the miracles - getting the blind to see, the lame to walk and the deaf hear - seem to stem from OT passages and could, conceivable, be written to match those OT texts (like Matthew's earthquake when Jesus died) and may not even have happened in real life. Others may just be exaggerations of minor things and, of course, healing the epileptics was nothing - they naturally wake after a fit. So in reality, I don't think there were any miracles in the first place.

As a footnote, there is a passage in mark when the disciples, in a boat on the lake, see Jesus walking towards them on the water. I consider this to be an appearance of Jesus after his death with one or two disciples seeing Jesus (I've mentioned before how this happens today commonly with the bereaved) and the story grew legs.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 04:35:04 AM »
Thanks..... you have done my head in, trippy shit. kinda like luks miracles, they are when it makes god look good but they are not if it makes god look bad.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 05:57:28 AM »
Quote from: Magicmiles
Quote
Go watch Passion of the Christ and get back to me. Maybe watch the crucifixion scene a  few times over.

Let's see: Death by cop, and then you get to be The Infinite Master of The Universe. That's not a sacrifice, that's the deal of the millennium!

So you're saying that all the Jesus character "sacrificed" is some suffering? The same as any other crucifixion victim? Except he didn't lose his life like all the other crucifixion victims because daddy could bail him out. If an atheist ever got crucified to save another person, he made a far greater sacrifice than the Jesus character could ever dream of.

Now Prometheus, there was a frickin' sacrifice! If you want to talk pain, this guy is chained to a rock and gets his liver torn out every day for eternity by an angry Eagle just for giving us fire. He sacrificed his freedom, and gets tortured forever, for actually helping us with no strings attached.
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 07:00:09 AM »
My first question when people talk about the sacrifice of Jesus is, "So, is Jesus dead?"

If they say no, then I can only reply, "Then what sacrifice are you talking about?"

Go watch Passion of the Christ and get back to me. Maybe watch the crucifixion scene a  few times over.

Check out a difficult birth video.  Read about a early mount everest summit attempt.  I know not quite the same as crucifixion but people do willingly endure some pretty extreme pain.  Now to bring it up to crucifixion level look at the mom who goes into the burning building to save her children.  Jesus did not suffer more than many humans do willingly.  I pity anyone who was crucified but look at it this way.  Jesus, absolutely knew with out a doubt, that heaven existed, that with in days he would recover and perhaps within a couple more days he would be in bliss.  The atheist fire fighter who sacrifices himself for a victim is by far more heroic, he knows he is risking everything.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2014, 08:32:33 AM »
Jesus did not suffer more than many humans do willingly.
It should never be forgotten that there were two other people being crucified at the same time as Jesus. One of them, whilst hanging there is alleged to have had a conversation with Jesus, so the pain didn't prevent this.

The other thing is, the manner of death of Christ is no different than that of many others who were crucified during the lifetime of Jesus: Did He ever mention them? No.

Did he ever suggest that the death penalty were cruel or wrong? No - in the OT, God is enthusiastically for the death penalty.

And then you have to ask,
"Was Jesus a martyr?";
"What did He do that was so bad that required execution?";
"Why didn't he think this out a bit more?";
"How did the magic work if he did "miracles"?"
"Why should anyone think or believe that he was the Son of God? Were there no mentally ill people around in Palestine at that time?"

But the killing point is that according to John 7, Even Jesus's brothers did not believe that he was the son of God:

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him.

Now this is straight after Jesus had fed the 5000 and walked on water and declared himself to be the Son of God who could give people eternal life... What did his brothers know about Jesus that others seem to have missed?
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 08:41:23 AM »
Sacrifice is usually made to someone, So god sacrificed his son to himself to cleanse sin.

How does sacrificing your own kid/self to yourself cleanse sin?  Why the hell would you write that rule into law?



The whole animal sacrifice rule also is somewhat bizzare to begin with.  What does the murder and waste of a perfectly good animal have to do with sin.

Theist logic time!
1 - 1 = 0, yes? In humanity's case, our sins were infinite sin units. Jesus was without sin. In fact, he only did non-sinful things. That adds up to negative infinite sin units. infinity - infinity = 0.

The animals are different. They may be able to counter the sins of one person. That's why Jesus had to die.
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 11:26:12 AM »
Go watch Passion of the Christ and get back to me. Maybe watch the crucifixion scene a  few times over.

I don't get this.  Special effects or no, I don't understand xians getting off on watching someone be tortured to death.  It is like a snuff film or those "faces of death" movies.   I think people who watch them are sickos.  I don't see how PotC is not X rated.
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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 12:04:59 PM »
^^^I'm with you. What a twisted piece of sickening torturous horror that movie is, and I'm frankly disgusted that anyone would endorse THAT movie as a means of gaining understanding about God's love demonstrated by graphic torture. Why the hell would a person with so much as a shred of humanity want to subject themselves to it to "understand the sacrifice" that christianity hinges upon?
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 12:34:22 PM »
A young mother in Belsen concentration camp being herded toward the gas chamber, desperately trying to comfort her two young children, all naked, freezing cold, she knowing that she will shortly watch the execution of her children before she herself dies, trying as best she can to give warmth and succour to their last few remaining minutes of life...

...or being crucified by oneself.

Both horrific but the former immeasurably worse. As a father, I'd take crucifixion every time.

Jesus's death was not extraordinarily painful or tortuous .
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 12:41:53 PM »
I utterly despise what very little I've seen of Passion of the Christ -- It's a violent, bloody, emotionally manipulative piece of trash.

In fact, when I was walking through a major department store in town and came across a TV playing the movie, I immediately went stomping over to the closest Customer Service desk and filed a formal written complaint.  I also told them that they should not be showing the movie in a family-oriented store because it had an "R" rating and was not suitable for children.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: God sacrificed his son.
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 05:11:14 PM »
The weird thing is that Christians pretend that the crucifixion was a terrible thing to happen, yet when I ask if they would rescue Jesus if they could, it suddenly becomes a necessary thing to happen. 

Does that mean that the god/Jesus/ghost thingy got exactly what it wanted? That the crucifixion was planned and carried out exactly as the god character intended?

In that case it's not a sacrifice, it's a success!
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