Author Topic: How to exist outside of Space Time?  (Read 995 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2014, 09:48:06 AM »
But if we try with all earnestness, we shall find Him.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

I tried.  He kept hiding.  Seeking and knocking and all the other stuff turned out to be bullshit. 

Now what?
Try to do what?  debunking? or mocking?

Look at the part I quoted.  It says, "if we try with all earnestness".  I tried.  I was religious, once and I tried to find god.  I did not find him.  I sought.  He stayed hidden.  I knocked on the door.  He did not answer.  Now what?


I'm getting a little tired of your smartass comments as dodges.  You aren't funny and no one here is amused.  I do not appreciate having to ask you the same question twice because you blow it off dismissively.  Get with the program or scram. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2014, 09:50:19 AM »
I have not come to abolish them (the law) but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

It is indeed fulfilled in Jesus Christ, so no cutting off from the membership.

How does one "fulfill the law"?  You can follow the law or uphold the law.  You can fulfill a promise or fulfill your end of a bargain.  But "fulfill the law" sounds like a MadLib to me.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2014, 10:47:45 AM »
I'm getting a little tired of your smartass comments as dodges.  You aren't funny and no one here is amused.  I do not appreciate having to ask you the same question twice because you blow it off dismissively.  Get with the program or scram. 
Oh!! I didn't know you used to be a Christian. (right?)
Can I ask you a few questions regarding your past religious beliefs?

When was the last time you told me you were a believer?  I am NOT trying to be funny and I do not appreciate forcing to read your mind and your past religious back ground like a mind reader.
You can either tell me what you used to believe or scram off of this thread.
And FYI, you are not the only one getting tired of some smartass comments.

Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2014, 10:52:48 AM »
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:1)
I have not come to abolish them (the law) but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

It is indeed fulfilled in Jesus Christ, so no cutting off from the membership.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

Jesus is clear on this; the OT law still applies. But you apparently feel able to ignore him?! He's not going to be liking you very much.
Christians commonly distort Jesus's words. If Jesus had meant 'No one needs to follow the Old Testament law anymore' then Jesus would've said "No one needs to follow the Old Testament law anymore." He didn't.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2014, 10:52:58 AM »
How does one "fulfill the law"?  You can follow the law or uphold the law.  You can fulfill a promise or fulfill your end of a bargain.  But "fulfill the law" sounds like a MadLib to me.
If the law says "if you lie, you shall pay $100 as a penalty."

Yesterday I lied about this ugly woman and got caught lying, if my dad pays $100 on my behalf then I am no longer responsible for my crime.  Therefore the law was fulfilled by my dad's gracious act.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2014, 10:56:30 AM »
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.
Yes, Jesus was clear on this. My emphasis

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." (John 19:30)
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12239
  • Darwins +269/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2014, 11:00:24 AM »
Yesterday I lied about this ugly woman and got caught lying, if my dad pays $100 on my behalf then I am no longer responsible for my crime.  Therefore the law was fulfilled by my dad's gracious act.

So now that that low is fulfilled in your hypothetical, the law against stealing is no longer in force.  Right?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1239
  • Darwins +89/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2014, 11:00:46 AM »
If the law says "if you lie, you shall pay $100 as a penalty."

Yesterday I lied about this ugly woman and got caught lying, if my dad pays $100 on my behalf then I am no longer responsible for my crime.  Therefore the law was fulfilled by my dad's gracious act.

Thats 2 separate things.

1 - You shouldn't lie
2 - there is a $100 penalty for lying

You're not fulfilling the law if you have to pay the $100 you're accepting the penalty for having broken it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 11:02:34 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2014, 11:04:44 AM »
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.
Yes, Jesus was clear on this. My emphasis

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." (John 19:30)

Yes, he finished his vinegar drink. And he even said "It's finished." What has this to do with your refusal to follow the Old Testament law that still applies??

edit - spelling
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2014, 11:06:57 AM »
Yesterday I lied about this ugly woman and got caught lying, if my dad pays $100 on my behalf then I am no longer responsible for my crime.  Therefore the law was fulfilled by my dad's gracious act.

So now that that low is fulfilled in your hypothetical, the law against stealing is no longer in force.  Right?
Right.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2014, 11:13:37 AM »
Thats 2 separate things.

1 - You shouldn't lie
2 - there is a $100 penalty for lying
I don't know why you insist on separating the law and it's penalty, what's the point?

It's the same with God's law.

1 - You shouldn't lie (sin)
2 - the wages of sin is death.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Online Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1239
  • Darwins +89/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2014, 11:15:56 AM »
Thats 2 separate things.

1 - You shouldn't lie
2 - there is a $100 penalty for lying
I don't know why you insist on separating the law and it's penalty, what's the point?

It's the same with God's law.

1 - You shouldn't lie (sin)
2 - the wages of sin is death.

The point is you're not fulfilling the law you are complying with it.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2014, 11:21:54 AM »
fyi, the green indicates I am acting as a moderator.  You writing in blue and parroting me is not one of your better ideas.

When was the last time you told me you were a believer?  I am NOT trying to be funny and I do not appreciate forcing to read your mind and your past religious back ground like a mind reader.


That was implicit in my reply.  Had you read it carefully, rather than been ready with a smartass comment, you'd have a clue.



How does one "fulfill the law"?  You can follow the law or uphold the law.  You can fulfill a promise or fulfill your end of a bargain.  But "fulfill the law" sounds like a MadLib to me.
If the law says "if you lie, you shall pay $100 as a penalty."

Yesterday I lied about this ugly woman and got caught lying, if my dad pays $100 on my behalf then I am no longer responsible for my crime.  Therefore the law was fulfilled by my dad's gracious act.

does not answer the question, but dodges it.  It also raises new questions about justice.  You analogy is a poor one since we are not talking about fines. "the wages of sin is death"  You are saying the law doesn't care who dies.  I would say that is an unjust law.



Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2014, 11:27:10 AM »
You are saying the law doesn't care who dies.  I would say that is an unjust law.
Do you call war veterans' losses unjust acts?

I call it heroic and bravery with much gratitude.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4845
  • Darwins +557/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2014, 11:28:45 AM »
It was a bone-crushing analogy. A computer will not think anything exists outside of it. Sounds like us and the universe, doesn't it?
You might want to rethink this analogy.  A computer receives power from outside itself.  It cannot operate without that source of power.  So even if it can't tell exactly where the power is coming from, it can at least tell that there is something outside of itself.  Not to mention that computers are usually hooked up things like keyboards, mouses, cameras, microphones, etc, which are input devices.  Again, even though the computer might not be able to tell where the input is coming from, it can at least detect the input and operate based on it.  Note that both of these examples are physical interactions which are detectable using physical means.  Appropriate comparisons would be a human eating food or drinking water, or getting sensory input.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2014, 11:28:56 AM »

The point is you're not fulfilling the law you are complying with it.
Where in the bible says we fulfilled the law?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12239
  • Darwins +269/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2014, 11:29:09 AM »
You are saying the law doesn't care who dies.  I would say that is an unjust law.
Do you call war veterans' losses unjust acts?

I call it heroic and bravery with much gratitude.

They were killed by legal edict?  They died as capital punishment for your crimes?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4845
  • Darwins +557/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2014, 11:47:51 AM »
I have presented the evidence: The fact that there was a beginning of space and time, just like the Bible says.
That is not evidence that points to your god.  Even assuming that space-time has a beginning, it does not stand as evidence for your god, because it is too nonspecific.  It is comparable to an ancient Greek using the rising and setting of the sun as evidence of the sun god Helios.  The rising and setting of the sun do not actually indicate that a god is causing it to rise or set, and therefore cannot be used as evidence to show that said god exists.

The fact that we do not know for sure does not justify inventing explanations out of whole cloth.

Quote from: skeptic54768
And the infinite universe has proved to be impossible because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The universe is a closed system and would have burned out by now if the universe was infinite. Sure, you get some kooks that say "The universe is an open system!" but so far they haven't been able to prove where the universe gets its energy from if it is indeed an open system, (which would mean things exist outside the universe anyway.)
No, it has not proved to be impossible.  The second 'law' of thermodynamics is simply an equation and does not conclusively prove anything.  It certainly does not prove that the universe had a 'beginning', any more than it proves that the universe will have an 'end'.  It's fairly likely that the events of the Big Bang (or Big Bounce) would have reset the effects of entropy, and thus would allow the universe to keep reigniting itself without an influx of energy from 'outside'.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4845
  • Darwins +557/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2014, 11:55:29 AM »
Yeah he was cold enough to die for them.  In fact he died for you too, what a cold man Jesus.
Are you sure about that?  Really, really sure?  Or is this just another article of faith that you just have to believe wasn't made up by his despondent followers as a reason to explain why he died?

Quote from: John 3 16
No you don't have to listen to me.  You try to listen to your inner self and think hard about it.
As if you know what my innermost self has to say.  FYI, mine says, "Don't believe someone just because they make a claim, because anyone can do that.  Wait and see if they can produce something more solid to support that claim, and even then, don't make assumptions about it."

Just because your own "innermost self" tells you that it's okay to have faith in something you can't be sure of, doesn't mean that everyone else is the same.  Or will accept what you're trying to sell just because you truly believe it.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2014, 12:14:46 PM »
You are saying the law doesn't care who dies.  I would say that is an unjust law.
Do you call war veterans' losses unjust acts?

I call it heroic and bravery with much gratitude.

wtf are you even talking about?
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12239
  • Darwins +269/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2014, 01:02:34 PM »
wtf are you even talking about?

He's saying that you and he were found guilty of capital crimes in a court of law, and dead war veterans are the ones who took your place for punishment, and that that's why they're now dead.  Just like Jesus H. dying for your sins, or something.

Silly, but that's the analogy he made.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1214
  • Darwins +125/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2014, 06:41:58 PM »
wtf are you even talking about?

He's saying that you and he were found guilty of capital crimes in a court of law, and dead war veterans are the ones who took your place for punishment, and that that's why they're now dead.  Just like Jesus H. dying for your sins, or something.

Silly, but that's the analogy he made.

War veteran here -- doesn't like his analogy one bit.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2546
  • Darwins +49/-418
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2014, 07:13:41 PM »
No, it has not proved to be impossible.  The second 'law' of thermodynamics is simply an equation and does not conclusively prove anything.  It certainly does not prove that the universe had a 'beginning', any more than it proves that the universe will have an 'end'.


No, it proves that the universe can not be infinite because entropy would have decreased by now.

It's fairly likely that the events of the Big Bang (or Big Bounce) would have reset the effects of entropy, and thus would allow the universe to keep reigniting itself without an influx of energy from 'outside'.

Is there proof of that or did you just make it up?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1239
  • Darwins +89/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2014, 08:06:44 AM »

The point is you're not fulfilling the law you are complying with it.
Where in the bible says we fulfilled the law?

Where in your lying analogy did you mention the bible?