Author Topic: How to exist outside of Space Time?  (Read 885 times)

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Offline Defiance

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How to exist outside of Space Time?
« on: May 18, 2014, 07:59:21 PM »
One great power of nearly any god, is that he can somehow "exist" outside of Space Time.

Problem; existence occurs only in space time. Tell me if you disagree.

Meaning if a god isnt in space (which virtually spans for an infinite distance), and doesn't act over time (which is close friends with space), where could it possibly be?

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline eh!

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2014, 09:24:52 PM »
One there would be no time. two only thing i can think of is that said diety would permeate all space OR the universe is just a dream inside the non physical mind of the diety.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2014, 10:50:17 PM »
The human mind is created in space and time and is not allowed out of it. It is born of desire and judgement.
To exist beyond it one would have to stop the mind and its judgement to allow the conscious entity soul to be in power in the body. This is called self realisation. It has always been taught freely for those who wish to learn the truth.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline penfold

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 04:58:17 AM »
One great power of nearly any god, is that he can somehow "exist" outside of Space Time.

Problem; existence occurs only in space time. Tell me if you disagree.

Meaning if a god isnt in space (which virtually spans for an infinite distance), and doesn't act over time (which is close friends with space), where could it possibly be?

Well, I don't want to argue for the existence of God, however I am not sure about your premise. What about space/time itself? Surely that (a) exists and (b) is not 'within' itself.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 06:04:25 AM »
The human mind is created in space and time and is not allowed out of it. It is born of desire and judgement.
To exist beyond it one would have to stop the mind and its judgement to allow the conscious entity soul to be in power in the body. This is called self realisation. It has always been taught freely for those who wish to learn the truth.

Congratulations.  You just won the "Word Salad of the Day" award.
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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 06:57:14 AM »
The human mind is created in space and time and is not allowed out of it. It is born of desire and judgement.
To exist beyond it one would have to stop the mind and its judgement to allow the conscious entity soul to be in power in the body. This is called self realisation.
You seem to have omitted any evidence for this. Could you please post a peer-reviewed reference and show how we can conduct an experiment to demonstrate your claim?

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2014, 07:26:43 AM »
The human mind is created in space and time and is not allowed out of it. It is born of desire and judgement.
To exist beyond it one would have to stop the mind and its judgement to allow the conscious entity soul to be in power in the body. This is called self realisation. It has always been taught freely for those who wish to learn the truth.
Okey dokey then! Please could you elaborate as to how this might occur. Thank you, (Emphasis on the how)
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Offline Nam

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 08:03:15 AM »
One great power of nearly any god, is that he can somehow "exist" outside of Space Time.

Problem; existence occurs only in space time. Tell me if you disagree.

Meaning if a god isnt in space (which virtually spans for an infinite distance), and doesn't act over time (which is close friends with space), where could it possibly be?

Well, I don't want to argue for the existence of God, however I am not sure about your premise. What about space/time itself? Surely that (a) exists and (b) is not 'within' itself.

I agree with this.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline Defiance

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2014, 05:25:56 PM »
One great power of nearly any god, is that he can somehow "exist" outside of Space Time.

Problem; existence occurs only in space time. Tell me if you disagree.

Meaning if a god isnt in space (which virtually spans for an infinite distance), and doesn't act over time (which is close friends with space), where could it possibly be?

Well, I don't want to argue for the existence of God, however I am not sure about your premise. What about space/time itself? Surely that (a) exists and (b) is not 'within' itself.

I agree with this.

-Nam

Hmmm, interesting and thought provoking, thanks for that.
Let's see:
If space is all there is, where else could space exist?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Nam

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 05:51:55 PM »
How do you know "space is all there is"?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Defiance

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 06:17:49 PM »
How do you know "space is all there is"?

-Nam
I don't.  It was foolish for me to say, now that I look back on it.

However, there is no reason to assume there is more, when we can't prove that there isn't.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Nam

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 08:03:58 PM »
How do you know "space is all there is"?

-Nam
I don't.  It was foolish for me to say, now that I look back on it.

However, there is no reason to assume there is more, when we can't prove that there isn't.

I don't think there is anything wrong in assuming; what would be wrong is to assume and then state there is without evidence (or solid theory) to back it up.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline penfold

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 01:21:41 AM »
Hmmm, interesting and thought provoking, thanks for that.
Let's see:
If space is all there is, where else could space exist?


Existence within space gives location. The existence of space itself, therefore, is without location. So you question "where ... could space exist?" is strictly meaningless. It is like asking "what colour is colour?", "how long is dimension?" or "what is the tune of music?".


"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 10:40:32 AM »
How do you exist outside that which is required for existence? Well, how do you see a color without eyes? How do you feel without sensory receptors? Simple: you don't.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 12:25:14 PM »
One great power of nearly any god, is that he can somehow "exist" outside of Space Time.

Problem; existence occurs only in space time. Tell me if you disagree.

Meaning if a god isnt in space (which virtually spans for an infinite distance), and doesn't act over time (which is close friends with space), where could it possibly be?

Here's the thing too.   Let's say that some super being, bigger and older than the universe, and existing outside of time, DID create everything.

i.e.  Some big genie in the sky started the big bang.

Let's just assume for a second that it could be true.


1 - As a person gets older and wiser, do they become more or less emotionally mature?
2 - As a person has children, and they are a good parent, would they ever torture their children?
3 - Ants can not understand the minds of people... is it moral for us to burn ants with a magnifying glass?

In other words, define a person that you think of as older, kind, and wise...

Does that person display the following qualities?
- Jealous
- Furious at their own creations
- Set prices for slavery and teach that to his children
- Stone his children to death for disobedience
- Short tempered
- Suggest that it's ok to kill women and children unless they're young virgin girls that you can force to be your wife?
- Suggest killing your own son to prove how much faith you have?
- Suggest that you believe all kinds of stuff for which there is no evidence?

So if a kind, 50 year old person doesn't display those qualities?  Why would an 18+ billion year old god not have an ounce of emotional maturity?

i.e.   Even if there was something existing that created the big bang (which I don't believe), it's even more unlikely that such being would be moody, jealous and emotionally immature.

Right?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline dloubet

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 11:33:11 PM »
Given the omni qualities of the Christian god, how would it view the universe? The only analogy I can think of is that it would be like if you created a movie, and then stacked each frame sequentially into a block, and could comprehend each and every frame all at the same time. You would have absolute knowledge of the movie as a single entity, a single object. Your knowledge would transcend the sequential nature of the movie frames, and every scene would be the present.

Of course, since you created it with full knowledge of every detail, you are necessarily responsible for everything in it.
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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 02:33:20 PM »
Given the omni qualities of the Christian god, how would it view the universe? The only analogy I can think of is that it would be like if you created a movie, and then stacked each frame sequentially into a block, and could comprehend each and every frame all at the same time. You would have absolute knowledge of the movie as a single entity, a single object. Your knowledge would transcend the sequential nature of the movie frames, and every scene would be the present.

Of course, since you created it with full knowledge of every detail, you are necessarily responsible for everything in it.

I like the analogy of movie frames stacked in a block.




As for can a guy live outside of space and time and still exist?  I don't know what a super beings capabilities are. 

If god did live outside of space and time and knew every instant of that movie the instant of creation.  I still have to say that is a boring existence.  Getting mad at a scene after the movie is produced released and old seems a little unbalanced.  You set the scene, recorded it, approved it, produced it and you knew from the outset that the scene would play out as you planned.  I don't see how god would see any interest in the individual scenes because he knows everthing about the movie.  It would be like reading a bad bubble gum wrapper joke forever.  Getting emotionally involved would be the human equivalent of a scientist looking at spores and being angry when one particular spore did not grow.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 05:33:50 PM »

As for can a guy live outside of space and time and still exist?  I don't know what a super beings capabilities are.
This is where it gets complicated. What creature be it a god or not, could do anything outside time, what ever it did even just thinking it would have to invoke time to do so. So it would not, nor could not be outside of time, if it were it would be redundant.   
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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 09:18:16 AM »
Given the omni qualities of the Christian god, how would it view the universe? The only analogy I can think of is that it would be like if you created a movie, and then stacked each frame sequentially into a block, and could comprehend each and every frame all at the same time. You would have absolute knowledge of the movie as a single entity, a single object. Your knowledge would transcend the sequential nature of the movie frames, and every scene would be the present.

Of course, since you created it with full knowledge of every detail, you are necessarily responsible for everything in it.

Agreed.

So assuming you could see the universe as billions of frames with billions of atoms making up each frame... how angry would you be that a few atoms on frame 1,375,289,920 questioned whether you existed?

Would you make up rules telling those atoms they could throw babies off walls or stone their teenagers to death?

Would you truly "love" each and every one of those atoms?

Would you make some mysterious test that, if the atoms believed in one specific random thing with no proof, you'd reward them, and the rest, you'd toss onto another frame of the movie where you created punishment that would seemingly last forever?

I.e.   If there "was" a being like that, it's almost impossible that it would act the way "god" acts in the bible.

So first, it's almost impossible that a being who created the universe exists out of space time.

Second, if there was, it's even more unlikely that this being gets jealous and into a heated argument with his prophets on earth.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 09:29:24 AM »
So if a kind, 50 year old person doesn't display those qualities?  Why would an 18+ billion year old god not have an ounce of emotional maturity?

i.e.   Even if there was something existing that created the big bang (which I don't believe), it's even more unlikely that such being would be moody, jealous and emotionally immature.

Right?
No. If he is "outside time[1]" he wouldn't be any age. ; )
 1. whatever that means
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Offline dloubet

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 09:13:18 PM »
Given the omni qualities of the Christian god, how would it view the universe? The only analogy I can think of is that it would be like if you created a movie, and then stacked each frame sequentially into a block, and could comprehend each and every frame all at the same time. You would have absolute knowledge of the movie as a single entity, a single object. Your knowledge would transcend the sequential nature of the movie frames, and every scene would be the present.

Of course, since you created it with full knowledge of every detail, you are necessarily responsible for everything in it.

Agreed.

So assuming you could see the universe as billions of frames with billions of atoms making up each frame... how angry would you be that a few atoms on frame 1,375,289,920 questioned whether you existed?

To the god outside of time, the universe is immutable. It's a block of frames. It's finished. Once created, there's nothing more to be done. It's a paperweight in your hand.  ;)

And the thing about an omniscient, omnipotent creator: Each and every particle in that block -- for its entire run of frames -- is doing exactly what the creator intended. If the creator had wanted anything to be different, it would have created a different block of frames.

So, indeed, how can it be angry at some collections of atoms doing exactly what it created them to do? You got me!   :)

 
Quote
I.e.   If there "was" a being like that, it's almost impossible that it would act the way "god" acts in the bible.

So first, it's almost impossible that a being who created the universe exists out of space time.

Second, if there was, it's even more unlikely that this being gets jealous and into a heated argument with his prophets on earth.

I cannot argue with these conclusions!
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Offline Defiance

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 07:16:34 AM »
Let's see. All that exists in Space Time has properties.

God, who apparently is transcendent, can have none of these.

And since if something has properties in Space Time, it also has this "property" of existence.

So if a god possess none of the qualities that would have it qualify as "existing", it does not exist.

Explain to us, with empirical evidence, how something can have existence without having existence.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 11:00:59 AM »
Let's see. All that exists in Space Time has properties.

God, who apparently is transcendent, can have none of these.

And since if something has properties in Space Time, it also has this "property" of existence.

So if a god possess none of the qualities that would have it qualify as "existing", it does not exist.

Explain to us, with empirical evidence, how something can have existence without having existence.
None of us believes a god exists so your question is moot.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 11:20:19 AM »
Haha, you're right. But I was hoping for a theist to answer.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 12:53:04 PM »
Haha, you're right. But I was hoping for a theist to answer.

A man can dream... &)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »
Imagine a computer asking, "How is it possible to live outside of computer space and time?" There's lots of things outside the computer but the computer doesn't know it!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2014, 01:34:21 PM »
Imagine a computer asking, "How is it possible to live outside of computer space and time?" There's lots of things outside the computer but the computer doesn't know it!

It's a head scratcher that we can't conclusively prove that WE aren't part of some kind of computer simulation.

It's a head scratcher that it's so hard to explain exactly what GRAVITY is...  (it's much easier to explain static electricity and those kinds of forces)   I know gravity makes smaller things fall towards bigger things, but, what causes it?

Almost nothing is 100% provable in those kinds of terms.  =-)
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2014, 01:54:27 PM »
Imagine a computer asking, "How is it possible to live outside of computer space and time?" There's lots of things outside the computer but the computer doesn't know it!

Your analogy is wrong.  A computer does not exist in "computer space and time".  It exists in our space and time.  I think you mean to refer to a "person" running as a simulation in a computer program.  And I don't think that is even an apt analogy.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: How to exist outside of Space Time?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 02:02:27 PM »
I think the point has been made that anything that is outside time could never do anything as doing implies actions in sequence which is not available outwith time. Of course, our knowledge of the universe we live in requires a close alignment of space and time into spacetime. In essence the two are so linked that they cannot be separated. So if a god were to exist outwith time, it would also have to live outwith space too, This could cause serious problems for existence.

Of course, some of the original data might be wrong. Modern cosmology is moving towards the idea of a multi-verse consisting of a vast number of universes.Could it be that these all exist in a much larger space and god might be placed in that larger space, controlling the universes? Of course, he would have to give up his 'outside time' aspect. Then, though he just needs to live for a very long time, unless time goes much more slowly where he exists than it does in the universes of course.

The above is, of course, rubbish. The nature of god is derived completely from reading an Iron Age book in which there is a redacted version of the Babylonian Creation Myth which has god living atop a dome over the flat earth. The writers knew no physics, or any science come to it, and drew upon how people live and extrapolated. They made up stories about a god which are, extra-ordinarily still believed today.
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