Author Topic: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god  (Read 2001 times)

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Offline screwtape

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This debate is between Lukvance and junebug72.  The topic is a challenge that junebug72  demonstrate that Catholicism will destroy God.

Only these two participants are permitted to post in this thread.  Non-participants may post in the commentary thread

Any posts by non-participants in this thread will be deleted.

I suggest Lukvance and junebug72 agree on a format and ending conditions prior to beginning their debate.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:31:51 AM by screwtape »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 07:47:29 AM »
Thanks Screwtape.

Lukvance is it okay to say no more than 3 questions at a time?   I would like to keep posts as short as possible.  Can we have a word limit of say 100?  Not a strict 100 but close?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 07:53:39 AM »
Yes no trouble.
You're worth more than my time

Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 01:45:43 PM »
How do you want to end the discussion?  I think we should confine this to 3 pages.  We can let members to decide who wins. 

Is this okay with you?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 05:26:13 PM »
Sure, why not. I hope you won't do like defiance and not answer simple yes or no questions.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 04:51:10 AM »
Why do you think I said Religion will destroy God?  It's not because I don't believe in God.  I do believe in God.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 12:08:47 PM »
Good good. Let me hear you.
I will start with the following statement : Religion is like School. It uses book(s) and teachers to help the humanity to grow up.
Do you think that School is a bad thing? That School will be the reason of our doom?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2014, 06:38:32 AM »
Good good. Let me hear you.
I will start with the following statement : Religion is like School. It uses book(s) and teachers to help the humanity to grow up.
Do you think that School is a bad thing? That School will be the reason of our doom?

Let me tell you what I learned in school.

I learned about a vain and cruel God that I could not love, worship or respect.   

Are you aware that Jesus warned us about false doctrine?  Is it good if the school is teaching false doctrine?  How do you determine which one is false. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 11:12:25 AM »
No. No and On the impact the said doctrine have on your life.
Vain and cruel God? Why is that?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 05:37:27 AM »
No. No and On the impact the said doctrine have on your life.
Vain and cruel God? Why is that?

I wanted to die because I thought God didn't love me but I was afraid to because I thought I would go to hell.

Because the bible portrays God that way.  Hell=cruel.  Worship=vanity. 

Are you afraid of God?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 07:35:57 AM »
I am not afraid of God.
God loves you. Every Christian telling you otherwise is lying. The bible have a wonderful message for you when understood properly.
You know what? I once debated with a guy that everything was uncertain but the love of God for me. He wanted to prove me that God didn't love me, always. He used scripture passages. Didn't work.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 11:30:14 AM »
Luk I would never ever ever ever tell you God does not love you.  In fact I am telling you quiet the opposite.  I believe God loves you very very much.  I believe God loves enough to have never created hell.  To never have flooded the earth or populate it through incest.  I believe God's love is unconditional.  So much so that I believe God loves atheist.  I do not believe God will torment atheist for their non-belief. 

Religion dilutes God's love.  It is conditional.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 01:54:04 PM »
You must have had quite the teacher to learn that "Religion dilutes God's love".
I'm still waiting on you "proof(s)" that Catholicism will destroy God.
You're worth more than my time

Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 03:04:21 PM »
You must have had quite the teacher to learn that "Religion dilutes God's love".
I'm still waiting on you "proof(s)" that Catholicism will destroy God.

No luk "religion" taught me of a vain and cruel God.  It's right there in the bible.  Religion is why many people do not believe in God.  It's not because they are being stubborn.  It's because the god the bible presents us with is extremely vain and cruel; unseen and unheard.  People don't want to worship or praise for a life full of suffering.  Whether it be their own or someone else's.  Do you understand this Luk?

This Debate is not about proof it's about right and wrong.  Torture is wrong.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 03:14:01 PM »
You must have had quite the teacher to learn that "Religion dilutes God's love".
I'm still waiting on you "proof(s)" that Catholicism will destroy God.

Why do you think the church population is dwindling?

Why do you think I would say such a thing when I believe in God/s.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 04:47:18 PM »
Why do you think the church population is dwindling?
It is not.
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Why do you think I would say such a thing when I believe in God/s.
I have no clue. I'm partially here to find out.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 08:00:31 PM »
Why do you think the church population is dwindling?
It is not.

Sorry to interject.  I thought this information might be relevant.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html

There are 68% the number of priest now as there were in 1965 and only 28% the number of nuns (who the heck would want to be a nun? No one, obviously.) The overall catholic population has increased by 61% (naturally, but not a big deal).  A problem, no? 

The number of parishes has declined slightly (no big deal), but the number of parishes without a priest has exploded from 549 in 1965 to 3554  in 2013.

Also, while the number of self identified catholics has gone up (as you would expect over the last 50 years), the number of officially registered catholics has only gone up the gap between self identifying catholics and those registered has almost tripled.  And the number of children in catholic schools has declined by 61%.  So while people may consider themsleves "catholic", they sure are not participating in church.

This is indicative of...something/  I wonder what...
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 08:34:14 PM »
Err it says 419,728 priests in 1970 and 412,236 in 2013.  7492 less priest = 1.7% less priest from 1970 to 2013.
If my math school isn't too far there is now 98.3% the number of priest there was in 1970 and the number is rising from 2005.
1,004,304 religious sisters in 1970 and 721,935 in 2013 so 71,8% of religious sisters. But the number are fading indeed.
in 1970 there was 653 600 000 Catholics vs 1 196 000 000 today.

The religion is growing.
And if we take into account Christianity as whole. We are the fastest growing religion in the world.
So yeah...I'm pretty sure that Catholicism won't destroy God.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 08:45:07 PM »
Luk I say that because it is governed by humans and humans are the problem.  Like the priests that molest little boys.  Like the Pope that spent millions on his home. 

Please address the statement I keep making; it's because religion portrays a cruel and vain god.

There are many of us that can not love or respect a god that would torture someone for not believing in something they can not see or hear.  That is like the cruelest thing I can comprehend.  Nothing that mankind has done to each other compares to this horrific torture called hell.

I did not ask to be created. ;)
 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 09:06:13 PM »

The religion is growing.
And if we take into account Christianity as whole. We are the fastest growing religion in the world.
So yeah...I'm pretty sure that Catholicism won't destroy God.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/

I'm talking about all the denominations!  All religion.  Catholics sure help a lot with their perverted priests.  There was one arrested here last year.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 11:04:51 PM »
"it's because religion portrays a cruel and vain god." You want me to address that? It's a lie. Do I address it enough?

There are many of us that can not love or respect a god that would torture someone for not believing in something they can not see or hear.
I agree with them. But Catholic God does not do that. Why do you bring it up?
I'm talking about all the denominations!  All religion.
Talking? And saying what? Remember the topic of this conversation? Why do you bring all the denominations in it?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 06:02:43 AM »
No you do not address it enough.  It is not a lie.  Almost every body here acknowledges that fact. 

So you don't believe God will send people to hell?

The bible plainly says belief is a requirement to enter heaven.  Have you read it?

You know what luk, I detect a lot of sarcasm.  I have made my position clear.  I do not hold Catholicism solely responsible for the downfall of religion, I blame them all.  It was screwtape that reduced my POV to Catholicism.   I am trying to correct that.  Does that answer it enough?

Just here in this debate room you are not being loving and kind and your priests are perverts.  That's why religion will destroy God.   Those behaviors reflect on God because you claim to serve God.

Please explain how these things are supposed to bring this community and those with like minds to your religious God.  It won't that's why religion is going down.

If freewill exists then God has given me and all others the freedom to believe w/o religion or to simply not believe at all.  What is the consequence of that?


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 09:31:46 AM »
I don't believe that God will send people to hell before the end of times, the last judgment. My priest taught me that God loves me, that he loves me even more than my parents and my parents love me a lot!
People who die have to choose between heaven and hell. Hell being the state where you say no to God after your death,forever. That choice cannot be changed as the parable from Jesus taught us.
You can't talk about religion in general. Satanism is a religion and it's sole purpose is to destroy God. I won't engage in a useless conversation .
When you say "Just here in this debate room you are not being loving and kind" I am enclined to ask you what could possibly make you think that? Is it something you invented to insult me?
When you say "and your priests are perverts" It's the first time I read this accusation as a reason for our religion to diminish. This is not a good reason, there are more perverted teachers in school. Is school destroying knowledge? Is school a bad institution because of that?
You asked what is the consequence of God giving us the freedom to choose him. It's why choosing him make such a difference, without freedom, if we were forced to choose him, it won't change our lives for the better.
You chose not to follow religion. I'm telling you, you should go back to "school", there is so much you can learn over there.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 10:14:05 AM »
I don't believe that God will send people to hell before the end of times, the last judgment. My priest taught me that God loves me, that he loves me even more than my parents and my parents love me a lot!
People who die have to choose between heaven and hell. Hell being the state where you say no to God after your death,forever. That choice cannot be changed as the parable from Jesus taught us.
You can't talk about religion in general. Satanism is a religion and it's sole purpose is to destroy God. I won't engage in a useless conversation .
When you say "Just here in this debate room you are not being loving and kind" I am enclined to ask you what could possibly make you think that? Is it something you invented to insult me?
When you say "and your priests are perverts" It's the first time I read this accusation as a reason for our religion to diminish. This is not a good reason, there are more perverted teachers in school. Is school destroying knowledge? Is school a bad institution because of that?
You asked what is the consequence of God giving us the freedom to choose him. It's why choosing him make such a difference, without freedom, if we were forced to choose him, it won't change our lives for the better.
You chose not to follow religion. I'm telling you, you should go back to "school", there is so much you can learn over there.

I have not insulted you.  You called me a liar.  You the Christian, are the one doing the insulting.

More people are home schooling because of perverted teachers.  I am not impressed with the public school system.  It is the law to send kids to school.  It is not the law to send people to church.

For God to send people to hell is cruel.  I could not do that and I know God's love has to be more beautiful, more precious than mine. 

Did we ask to be created?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 11:41:42 AM »
Of course we didn't ask to be created. We didn't ask to be born neither. Do we blame our parents for that?
Let explain to you again. For us Catholics, God does not send people to hell[1]. You seem to forget it.
When you say not impressed, do you mean that if you could, you would not send your kids to school because of all the perverts over there?
 1. "First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.
Given that—and this is fundamental—God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience.
In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil.
The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision. - The pope in this letter"
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2014, 01:38:31 PM »
Of course we didn't ask to be created. We didn't ask to be born neither. Do we blame our parents for that?

Yes of course I blame my mom and dad for that, of course I do.  I did not have freewill. 

 
Let explain to you again. For us Catholics, God does not send people to hell[1]. You seem to forget it.
 1. "First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.

No I did not ask that question. 

These folks here are screaming to the tops of their lungs pleading with you to understand that are seeking.  They are seeking on this website everyday.  God has not downloaded belief into their brains.  Come on now :o


 
1
Given that—and this is fundamental—God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience.
In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil.
The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision. - The pope in this letter"

Ask for mercy for a life you did not ask for.  A life that included much grief, strife and suffering.  I bet God admires us for surviving it!!!


 
When you say not impressed, do you mean that if you could, you would not send your kids to school because of all the perverts over there?

I would not send my child to a school that was teaching false knowledge.  Nope I wouldn't.  I haven't!!! lol  I think it is vile to recruit children.

As far as your letter from the pope; this mercy does have limits.  You MUST believe!!!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2014, 01:41:31 PM »
The Bible God is Cruel and Vain in every form of the words.  I was written by cruel and vain men in every form of the words.

Can you dispute this claim other than saying it's a lie.  Why do you believe it is a lie?

This is a link about the history of Christianity.  If you give them enough rope they will hang themselves.  They must learn from the mistakes of the horrifically bloody past.  They must love others as they love themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Christianity was not the first religion by a very very very long shot.  That means your bible is wrong.  You can learn a lot from history Lukvance.  What do you know about the birth of Christianity?

« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:15:02 PM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2014, 05:10:07 PM »
Yes of course I blame my mom and dad for that, of course I do.  I did not have freewill. 
Blaming you parents for being born...what a sad life you must live.

Quote
Ask for mercy for a life you did not ask for.  A life that included much grief, strife and suffering.  I bet God admires us for surviving it!!!

I guess since you are not grateful towards your parents it makes sense. But most of us humans don't think like you do. They take their own responsabilities and do not accuse others for their mistake. "A life that included much grief, strife and suffering" is surely not God's fault nor your parents to have given you life on hearth. I might imagine that your parents were hideous persons and that they raised you very poorly and because of that you have the bad habits to report your own problems onto others. But this is not an argument for the dismissal of Catholicism in general.

Quote
I would not send my child to a school that was teaching false knowledge.  Nope I wouldn't.  I haven't!!! lol  I think it is vile to recruit children.
That is not the question I asked. Have you been to school? Did they teach you about evolution? Did what they teach you false knowledge?

Quote
As far as your letter from the pope; this mercy does have limits.  You MUST believe!!!

I guess you stopped reading (too many words?) and left the following part : "the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. " How do you understand that?

The Bible God is Cruel and Vain in every form of the words.  I was written by cruel and vain men in every form of the words.
No he is not. :) (we can do that for a long time)
Quote
Can you dispute this claim other than saying it's a lie.  Why do you believe it is a lie?
Because I live something completely opposite of that.
Quote
Christianity was not the first religion by a very very very long shot.  That means your bible is wrong.
No it does not mean that. It means that Christianity cannot be born before Jesus.
Quote
You can learn a lot from history Lukvance.  What do you know about the birth of Christianity?
A lot. I just refreshed my memory with the link you gave me. Why do you ask?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Lukvance and junebug72 debate whether Catholicism will destroy god
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2014, 08:43:54 PM »
Lukvance my parents made mistakes but they were not hideous.  You are cruel, go figure, you're God is cruel.

What happened to short and simple?  That post is too long.  It is against our agreement.  There is at least 150 words there.  I stopped counting.  I'm rejecting it.

Is it cruel to kill babies; yes or no please?
Is incest moral; yes or no please?
Will hell be painful; yes or no please?





Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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