Author Topic: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets  (Read 1705 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« on: May 15, 2014, 05:06:47 PM »
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/08/emily-letts-abortion-video

A young woman vids her abortion.  She's not conflicted, not emotionally wracked and not disturbed.  Just relieved.  Which royally pisses off the forced birthers.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 05:12:32 PM »
Yeah, I saw a minor clip of that on TV yesterday. I figured there'd be some noise about it. I wouldn't want to watch the whole vid, though. Not my cup of tea.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 05:17:19 PM »
The fact that she's not disturbed will be used as an argument that women who get abortions enjoy them. Which, to be fair, in this case and IMO, seems to be what's happening.[1] Doesn't mean the morons who want every single woman on Earth to give birth to their unwanted children ("forced birthers" is a good term for them; kudos, screwtape) are right about their bullshit, though.

Semi-off-topic: Abortions are fucking gross. Then again, so are most (all?) operations.
 1. I'm preparing for something I hope won't be necessary, but will most likely come once members read that sentence.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 05:26:30 PM »
The comment section's boring. Too PC.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 07:07:26 AM »
The fact that she's not disturbed will be used as an argument that women who get abortions enjoy them. Which, to be fair, in this case and IMO, seems to be what's happening

I don't think that is the perspective they push, though.  I think the anti-abortion side - and practically everyone else, for that matter - pushes the idea that it is an emotionally traumatic experience, a decision frought with angst and turmoil, with life long psychological implications.  They try to make it sound as horrible as possible to discourage them.  This woman showed that is not necessarily the case, at least not for everyone. 

I have long said that abortion should not be dealt with as if it were a grave and tragic thing as a default.  Treat it like every other routing medical procedure.  If you broke a finger, you'd go to the doctor and have it fixed.  If you had an infection, you'd go to the doctor and have it treated.  If you have an unwanted pregnancy, you'd go to the doctor and have it terminated.  In each case there is relief that the procedure was available. 

The whole idea pushed by Clinton - make them rare but safe - was misguided.  It was an attempt to negotiate with people who do not negotiate and the end result was to give credence to a dumb belief - that abortions are something bad.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2014, 07:16:24 AM »
I don't think that is the perspective they push, though.  I think the anti-abortion side - and practically everyone else, for that matter - pushes the idea that it is an emotionally traumatic experience, a decision frought with angst and turmoil, with life long psychological implications.  They try to make it sound as horrible as possible to discourage them.  This woman showed that is not necessarily the case, at least not for everyone.
<snip>

It was my understanding that pregnant women were pumped full of hormones by their own brains, so that they love their child before it's even actually a child. To terminate something you love is a traumatic experience for anyone. Just talk to anyone who's played Portal and has a heart. And that's just a game. To have a life form you love growing inside you makes you more emotionally involved.
I say this not to discourage women from having abortions (although I am anti-abortion/pro-life[1]), but to point out that it is a traumatic experience for them, and that this woman having done what she did doesn't help to get rid of forced birthers. In fact, it reinforces their position.
 1. In the true sense of the words: I think abortions are bad and that life should be preserved. I am also pro-choice: I think women should be able to choose if they want an abortion or not. I also think you should stick to the term "forced birthers" when describing people such as the ones in your OP.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2014, 08:09:21 AM »
It was my understanding that pregnant women were pumped full of hormones by their own brains,

I think that is a progressive process that accumulates over time.  In the earliers stages, those feelings are less acute.

 
that this woman having done what she did doesn't help to get rid of forced birthers.

I don't think that was the goal.  I think her point was to show that abortion - for those who want it or need it - is not necessarily a horrible, scarry experience that leaves women emotionally devestated.  For most women who have them, it is a "godsend".

In fact, it reinforces their position.

I don't see how.  I've never seen the other side say "women enjoy abortions".  I've only ever seen them stress the negative. 
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2014, 08:13:16 AM »
I think that is a progressive process that accumulates over time.  In the earliers stages, those feelings are less acute.

Makes sense.

I don't think that was the goal.  I think her point was to show that abortion - for those who want it or need it - is not necessarily a horrible, scarry experience that leaves women emotionally devestated.  For most women who have them, it is a "godsend".

Maybe, but I doubt it will accomplish that goal.

I don't see how.  I've never seen the other side say "women enjoy abortions".  I've only ever seen them stress the negative. 

I recall links on this forum where forced birthers said that women wanted to have multiple abortions for kicks (paraphrasing).
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2014, 10:50:41 AM »
I recall links on this forum where forced birthers said that women wanted to have multiple abortions for kicks (paraphrasing).

I've seen where they castigate women for using it as birth control.  But I do not remember seeing a case as you describe.
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Offline blue

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2014, 11:11:09 AM »
I recall links on this forum where forced birthers said that women wanted to have multiple abortions for kicks (paraphrasing).

I've seen where they castigate women for using it as birth control.  But I do not remember seeing a case as you describe.

I know this is anecdotal evidence, but in my high school years I went to a Christian school[1] school and when we protested or had chapel it was said that some women were so twisted they had abortions for kicks. Not super common, but I have heard sentiments like that expressed. Much less now then back in the 80's and 90's, but on the other hand I left that culture 16 or so years ago. But even then it was from the same people who believed in satanic ritual abuse so they were already primed to believe fantastical things.
 1. http://www.aurorachristian.org/
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 11:13:16 AM »
okay. there is a datapoint.  I stand corrected.  Do you, blue, think that this story makes the case for idea?  Do you think she had the abortion for kicks?  Or did she have it for a good reason and felt good about it?
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Offline blue

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2014, 11:48:43 AM »
I don't think she had the abortion for kicks at all, I doubt anyone does. I am in total agreement with your point earlier up thread

I have long said that abortion should not be dealt with as if it were a grave and tragic thing as a default.  Treat it like every other routing medical procedure.  If you broke a finger, you'd go to the doctor and have it fixed.  If you had an infection, you'd go to the doctor and have it treated.  If you have an unwanted pregnancy, you'd go to the doctor and have it terminated.  In each case there is relief that the procedure was available. 

I admire what she did, because it is a great thing. I do see that she is going to be vilified and the forced birthers are going to lose their shit. She's going to achieve boogeyman status. What she did will fill in some of their narratives and will feed an awful narrative, but honestly that'll drive people away faster I think in the medium to long run.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 12:25:41 PM »
I read some of the comments after the clip.  I though one in particular was kinda interesting.

This person said that she should not make it look so easy and be so happy about it.  because 1 in 4 wanted pregnancies end in miscarriage.  This person thought it was callus of her to post it unless she was regretful and upset.


That got me thinking about the real world.  I think that this person is right.  as such there are people who have diseases which affect mobility so we should not allow competitive sports because there are people who could never compete because of the lot in life they have been given.  We should also ban all valedictorian speeches because not all people are as smart as the valeditorian and it might make them feel hurt because their abilities are less than the high achiever.

Just because some people can not have children and want them does not mean that I should have to be sad at my ability to shoot out 4 kids? :)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 02:39:00 PM »
^ heh.  I almost missed the sarcasm.

Someone had pointed out how awful it was because there are people who want kids and cannot have them but this woman "threw away a perfectly good baby".  Yeah, sorry, no.  Other people's inability to conceive/ have kids do not obligate me to do anything.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 02:41:39 PM »
^ heh.  I almost missed the sarcasm.

Someone had pointed out how awful it was because there are people who want kids and cannot have them but this woman "threw away a perfectly good baby".  Yeah, sorry, no.  Other people's inability to conceive/ have kids do not obligate me to do anything.

Not to mention that it wasn't a baby. It was a fetus.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 08:25:57 AM »
Not to mention that it wasn't a baby. It was a fetus.


A fetus is a baby but for time, desire and luck, they are the same thing.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 01:49:43 PM »
Not to mention that it wasn't a baby. It was a fetus.


A fetus is a baby but for time, desire and luck, they are the same thing.

So, by your logic, when I accidentally swallow a seed, I'm actually swallowing a tree!
Or, put it in another way, you're saying that I should complain that the lottery first prizes when I entered (twice, IIRC) weren't deposited in my bank account. After all, if it wasn't for all the differences, the numbers would be the exact same ones.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 02:41:13 PM »
Not to mention that it wasn't a baby. It was a fetus.


A fetus is a baby but for time, desire and luck, they are the same thing.

So, by your logic, when I accidentally swallow a seed, I'm actually swallowing a tree!
Or, put it in another way, you're saying that I should complain that the lottery first prizes when I entered (twice, IIRC) weren't deposited in my bank account. After all, if it wasn't for all the differences, the numbers would be the exact same ones.

well I know of at least one guy who was growing a pine tree in his lungs.

I have gone through this with my thumper friends.  I do find it difficult differentiate between say 6 month old fetus and a baby except for it's residence.  It has a 50/50 chance of survival outside of the mom.  Yet it is still called a fetus.  Physically, Chemically, organ system wise, it is a baby.  If they carve it out of mom with heroic efforts they can keep 1 out of 2 alive and they will develop normally.  So why would you not call that a baby?  but for the residence it is a baby after 6 months.  Now a Blastocyst has the same DNA as a finished human other than interruptions biologically it is not dog, cat or bird.  It is a little developing human being.  Personally I say 1st trimester, it does not have a brain and therefore can not be hurt so have at it suck it out and it will be as if it was never there.  It will sense no loss, has no fear. 

But finding the dividing line between protected human and fetus I think is a little fuzzy at times.  For me when the brain has all major regions i think that survival of the mother becomes the only reason for abortion.  Prior to that break out the hoover.

At what point do you think a fetus is a human worthy of protection?   Is it viability, conception, or is the vagina the dividing line?  Why?   Why not during the first month post partum?  The baby still does not really have a sense of self and it is still not fully developed.  So why do you choose your dividing line?

I am pro-abortion but I can not answer my friend so I put it to you? 


As for my comment, I do consider it what ever the parents do from the first moments after conception. 

Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 03:58:09 PM »
well I know of at least one guy who was growing a pine tree in his lungs.

I call bullshit. Plants can't grow without sunlight.

I have gone through this with my thumper friends.  I do find it difficult differentiate between say 6 month old fetus and a baby except for it's residence.  It has a 50/50 chance of survival outside of the mom.  Yet it is still called a fetus.  Physically, Chemically, organ system wise, it is a baby.  If they carve it out of mom with heroic efforts they can keep 1 out of 2 alive and they will develop normally.  So why would you not call that a baby?  but for the residence it is a baby after 6 months.

I'm not seeing a counter to my lottery ticket argument. You're ignoring the differences in order to assume they're the same.
Also, if you think a 50% chance of survival is enough, you're wrong, plain and simple. At 34 weeks (not even 8 months), the viability of a fetus is >98% (according to Wikipedia). That's 1 out of every 50 that die, without help from medical care (other than for the birth itself, I think).

At what point do you think a fetus is a human worthy of protection?   Is it viability, conception, or is the vagina the dividing line?  Why?   Why not during the first month post partum?  The baby still does not really have a sense of self and it is still not fully developed.  So why do you choose your dividing line?

A fetus is never a human. That's why it's a fetus. Which is not to say that it's not worthy of protection.

As for my comment, I do consider it what ever the parents do from the first moments after conception. 

So your actual opinion is irrelevant. You leave it up to the parents to decide.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 04:43:12 PM »

Someone had pointed out how awful it was because there are people who want kids and cannot have them but this woman "threw away a perfectly good baby".  Yeah, sorry, no.  Other people's inability to conceive/ have kids do not obligate me to do anything.

Well, it wouldn't obligate you to go out specifically and have a baby. But if you're having one anyway....

even then, you are correct in that you aren't obligated to have the baby and make it available for adoption. But imagine if we always operated on the principle of "I'm not obligated". Imagine the joy you can bring, giving life.
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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 08:56:33 AM »
Imagine the joy you can bring, giving life.

Imagine the torment you can create by bringing a baby into a family of five just scraping by, having a healthy baby.  Now imagine if that baby were sick.

Imagine the suffering you can create if you are not equipped to raise a child or if you harbor some annimosity to the baby because you were forced to bring it into the world.

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 09:11:05 AM »
Imagine all the children that age out of the foster care system every year, having missed the window of opportunity to be adopted as an infant. Imagine all the judgments and criticism one faces by being obviously pregnant and not returning from the hospital with a baby. Imagine all the guilt that gets piled onto an unwillingly pregnant girl who does not believe she is prepared to be a mother, followed by all the condemnation she gets for "giving her baby away to be raised by strangers".

Imagine the real world, the one we actually live in - not the fantasy world where all problems have easy solutions -  before making short-sighted flippant suggestions that address the symptoms instead of the problems.

If the problems we face (society at large) were easy to solve, we would have already solved them. If all you have to offer are simplistic solutions to complex problems, try thinking a little harder.

edit: grammar
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 10:55:10 AM »
A fetus is a baby but for time, desire and luck, they are the same thing.

Yeah, and an egg is a chicken.  And dinner is poo. 
Your argument is moot.


But finding the dividing line between protected human and fetus I think is a little fuzzy at times. 

It is.  So it goes will all gradual processes.  When is an evolving species a different species?  Which individual was the first human?  What is the exact second the milk goes bad?  It is not a bright red line.  So we draw one at birth, because it is simple. 

And anyway, just whose uterus is it?  That is the central question to me.  Who has the rights to the uterus?  You can say a fetus is a person all you want.  You can guarantee the fetus is the next Einstein or jesus.  But what it comes down to is who owns the uterus.

At what point do you think a fetus is a human worthy of protection?

The human brain does not finish developing until the early 20s.  Frankly, you could make a strong argument that there should be no penalty to killing teens.



But if you're having one anyway....

go ahead, finish the thought.  If you're having one anyway... what? 

As a father, you ought to know that having a kid knocks the hell out of a woman.  And it is potentially lethal.  So I don't see why anyone should be guilted into carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term.  Especially when there are tons of kids who could be adopted but are not.

But imagine if we always operated on the principle of "I'm not obligated".

That's pointless statement, Miles.  No one said there are no obligations in the world.  There is nothing wrong with doing things for other people's joy, but I think an individual's life and body are a higher priority.


edit - fixed quote
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:20:12 PM by screwtape »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 11:21:57 AM »
It is.  So it goes will all gradual processes.  When is an evolving species a different species?  Which individual was the first human?  What is the exact second the milk goes bad?  It is not a bright red line.  So we draw one at birth, because it is simple. 

And anyway, just whose uterus is it?  That is the central question to me.  Who has the rights to the uterus?  You can say a fetus is a person all you want.  You can guarantee the fetus is the next Einstein or jesus.  But what it comes down to is who owns the uterus.

If someone trapped in your house (I don't know because a floor collapsed as they were visiting) you have decided you want them to leave but they can't can you kill them?

Once you have allowed this fetus to become viable, you can not simply kill it IMO.  Since that point is a little gray lets call it the third trimester.  I think all efforts at that point need to be made to get the person out safely.  I think the fetus has rights once it has a brain and nervous system connected to that brain.  You can evict the person as long as it safe to do so.  But I think your right to kill it are off the table somewhere around viability.  Just as you can't just shoot the person trapped in your house.  The only exception is if that person is somehow threatening your life.  So there is a grey time in my mind where you do lose some of your rights.  Somewhere between the Beginning of the third trimester and relatively safe c-section.  From my perspective Kill it all you want up until it has all the systems up and operational.  Essentially I define a human as a sentient being, if it has a brain capable of thought then I believe you have missed the abortion boat. 

 

The human brain does not finish developing until the early 20s.  Frankly, you could make a strong argument that there should be no penalty to killing teens.


Do you seriously believe that?  I most certainly do not.  post vagina you are a fully vested human with all the rights IMO.  I get a little fuzzy from mid third trimester to vagina barrier.


As a father, you ought to know that having a kid knocks the hell out of a woman.  And it is potentially lethal.  So I don't see why anyone should be guilted into carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term.  Especially when there are tons of kids who could be adopted but are not.
 

I agree to a point but I do not think it is too much to ask for you to decide to kill it before it is a feeling, thinking being, within in a 6 month time frame.  I also would never demand she put her life in danger.  If there is a medical risk associated with continuing the pregnancy to a reasonable level for delivery then the baby's gotta go.  But if it is 9 months in I don't think you just choose to break it into little chunks you probably should have to try and get it out alive as long as that proceedure does not increase sigificantly mortality risk to the mother. 


« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 11:31:37 AM by epidemic »

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 11:45:44 AM »

I do find it difficult differentiate between say 6 month old fetus and a baby except for it's residence.


This is a big difference

It has a 50/50 chance of survival outside of the mom. 

Normal babies have a 1/1 chance of survival outside of the mom. Unless of course you take the perspective that but for time, desire and luck, they are already a corpse.  ;)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2014, 11:49:44 AM »
Normal babies have a 1/1 chance of survival outside of the mom. Unless of course you take the perspective that but for time, desire and luck, they are already a corpse.  ;)

Aww. I wanted to make that argument. :(
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2014, 12:29:49 PM »

I do find it difficult differentiate between say 6 month old fetus and a baby except for it's residence.


This is a big difference

It has a 50/50 chance of survival outside of the mom. 

Normal babies have a 1/1 chance of survival outside of the mom. Unless of course you take the perspective that but for time, desire and luck, they are already a corpse.  ;)

I think where I do really start falling off the fence when I try to decide a punishment for someone who has a late term abortion for the heluvit.  Would I put them in jail for murder?  No!

would I fine them? Maybe but probably not.

I am not really strong in my beliefs but I absolutely would never consider helping a mom kill her 1 hour old infant by ripping off limbs and crushing it's skull.  I can't imagine doing the same 1 hour before delivery.

Killing something that cannot survive on it's own prior to having a brain, I will help doc with the hoover and we can suck that little sucka out .  But after viability I think it is dang close to murder.  Little different than killing the guy in the floor collapse so we can move forward with the renovations.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2014, 12:37:49 PM »
Killing something that cannot survive on it's own prior to having a brain, I will help doc with the hoover and we can suck that little sucka out .  But after viability I think it is dang close to murder.  Little different than killing the guy in the floor collapse so we can move forward with the renovations.

Still ignoring that:
A: 9 month-old fetuses have a ~100% survival rate (much higher than when their brains just recently formed).
B: You might as well consider them dead right away, as per your "time" "logic".
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Offline Jag

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2014, 02:52:41 PM »
But after viability I think it is dang close to murder.  Little different than killing the guy in the floor collapse so we can move forward with the renovations.

There's no state in the US that permits abortion without exception (ie: rape, or life of the mother is at stake) past 24 weeks - which happens to coincide with a 50/50 chance at survival outside the womb.
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