Author Topic: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets  (Read 1155 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2014, 12:14:31 PM »
Perhaps this might help:  Epidemic, where does one's right to life come from?  And how do we verify its presence, as opposed to its absence?

everyones right to life comes from society.  It is not some magical right bestowed.  it is one of the most uniform of rights around the world.   As humans it seems like the right to life is uniformly accepted as reasonably absolute for people who are already born with the exception of punishment for crimes comitted against others.  With Fetus and babies it gets a little more vague.  Each society has varying rules regarding this.  Our society and most if not all western societies seem to bestow rights beginning in the 24th to 28th week of gestation. 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2014, 12:41:03 PM »
everyones right to life comes from society.  It is not some magical right bestowed.

Agreed.  Also I'm rather surprised you're conceding this, given your position.  It destroys your position.

it is one of the most uniform of rights around the world.   As humans it seems like the right to life is uniformly accepted as reasonably absolute for people who are already born with the exception of punishment for crimes comitted against others.

Broad opinion, yes.

With Fetus and babies it gets a little more vague.  Each society has varying rules regarding this.  Our society and most if not all western societies seem to bestow rights beginning in the 24th to 28th week of gestation.

The question then is "why".  It makes no sense to appeal to bestowing full right-to-life to something based on the argument that "it has a right to life".  That's circular.  So as I said earlier, you have no position that you even understand.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2014, 01:30:02 PM »
My position is that if a baby 1 second after birth has a right to life.  An equally well formed baby in utero has the same right to life.  And my position is backed by societies the world over.




to you last statement.  Well it does become vague because the dividing line is a moving target.  Most of you folks take the abitrary vaginal barrier as to when right to life is bestowed.  I and much of the first world take viability to be the arbitrary point.  The only people without an arbitrarty standard are conception right to lifers.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2014, 04:06:56 PM »
My position is that if a baby 1 second after birth has a right to life.  An equally well formed baby in utero has the same right to life.  And my position is backed by societies the world over.

Your agreement with them is backed by the fact that they agree with you?  No other reaoning.  Okay.

to you last statement.  Well it does become vague because the dividing line is a moving target.  Most of you folks take the abitrary vaginal barrier as to when right to life is bestowed.  I and much of the first world take viability to be the arbitrary point.  The only people without an arbitrarty standard are conception right to lifers.

The question then becomes what your motivation is for forcing women to give birth.  You allude earlier to a sense of justice and retribution:
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I inconjunction society in most first world nations am demaning personal responsibility and decision making over a multi month period before finally holding someone accountable for their inaction.

And of course, the total-anti-abortion folks already take steps to sabotage early abortion options in places where late abortion is not an option.  Which is the regime your position encourages.  How do you feel about that, assuming you have feelings?
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Offline Jag

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2014, 04:11:49 PM »
Assuming I understand who you are referring to when you say "conception right to lifers", I would argue that their position is the most arbitrary of all.

Why? Define the exact moment of conception, and then we can discuss it.
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Online Mrjason

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2014, 06:21:39 AM »
As humans it seems like the right to life is uniformly accepted as reasonably absolute for people who are already born with the exception of punishment for crimes comitted against others. 

reasonably absolute is an oxymoron, something is either absolute or it is qualified.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2014, 08:20:00 AM »
Assuming I understand who you are referring to when you say "conception right to lifers", I would argue that their position is the most arbitrary of all.

Why? Define the exact moment of conception, and then we can discuss it.

Well there we have to disagree, I believe that theirs is the least arbitrary.  The moment of conception a new human DNA sequence is created, uniquely human.  It is simply the least formed state of a human but it is not zebra, gecko, elephant nor plant.  Their belief is that you protect the lifes of humans no matter the stage of development.  as was so aptly stated earlier, a 1 second old baby is not fully developed nor is a 20 year old.  To the purist right to lifer you protect human life no matter the stage.  90 years old and on a respirator in a persistent vegetative state protected, born with out a brain protected, 1 second after conception protected, cerebral palsy protected, retarded with an IQ of 10 protected.  I don't agree with their standard but they believe a unique human begins at conception.  PS as does science.


MrJason,
As for reasonably absolute.  Yes it is not the most accurate use of the word but I believe you understand.  It is the standard for human societies the world over with few exceptions so few as to be statistically insignificant.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 08:25:03 AM by epidemic »

Online Mrjason

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2014, 08:51:48 AM »
MrJason,
As for reasonably absolute.  Yes it is not the most accurate use of the word but I believe you understand.  It is the standard for human societies the world over with few exceptions so few as to be statistically insignificant.

No it isn't, especially in the context that you were talking about, i.e. the right to life.
The right to life is a qualified right i.e. it is not absolute, you can be killed in certain circumstances, which you gave an example of.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2014, 09:49:20 AM »
To the purist right to lifer you protect human life no matter the stage. 

Does this mean you are also against Capitol Punishment?  (Just this question only, let's not extend the thread to discuss.)
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2014, 11:02:47 AM »
It is the standard for human societies the world over with few exceptions so few as to be statistically insignificant.

there are about a dozen things wrong with your reasoning and this idea.  Let me pick on just a couple.

What exactly is "right to life"?  Does that include a "right to be born" and a "right to someone else's uterus"?  If it includes a "right to be born", where do you draw the line on that and why?  Because I see the logical extension of that idea leading to ova rights and sperm rights. 


I expect an actual argument, with facts, not just a regurgitation of your opinions.  I know, that's asking a lot and I am likely to be disappointed. 

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2014, 02:37:04 PM »
Perhaps these women should volunteer their uteruses and the rest of their lives to protect these precious unborn that supposedly mean so much to them.  Put some skin in the game.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Jag

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
Assuming I understand who you are referring to when you say "conception right to lifers", I would argue that their position is the most arbitrary of all.

Why? Define the exact moment of conception, and then we can discuss it.

Well there we have to disagree, I believe that theirs is the least arbitrary.  The moment of conception a new human DNA sequence is created, uniquely human.  It is simply the least formed state of a human but it is not zebra, gecko, elephant nor plant.  Their belief is that you protect the lifes of humans no matter the stage of development.  as was so aptly stated earlier, a 1 second old baby is not fully developed nor is a 20 year old.  To the purist right to lifer you protect human life no matter the stage.  90 years old and on a respirator in a persistent vegetative state protected, born with out a brain protected, 1 second after conception protected, cerebral palsy protected, retarded with an IQ of 10 protected.  I don't agree with their standard but they believe a unique human begins at conception.  PS as does science.

Yes, I understand where forced birthers draw the line - I've yet to meet a real live purist though.

I think you misunderstood my question. "Define the moment" = when exactly does conception occur? You've presented a philosophical view, but that's not what I asked.

And for the record, feel free to expand n your PS remark - what do you mean "unique human being begins at conception"? As best I can tell, you're saying that every human is unique - I agree but don't see the relevance, nor are you presenting much of anything when you say "as does science", as if "science" is an actual entity with awareness and opinions. People express opinions, fields of study do not.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2014, 12:28:05 PM »
Charles Pierce on the recent SCOTUS decision to eliminate the buffer zone in front of clinics

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What if the sidewalk counselors decide to open-carry? And, conversely, what if a woman in Florida, attempting to enter a clinic, feels threatened by the spittle-fringed howling of the protesters? Can she Stand Her Ground and just Zimmerman the lot of them with an AR-15? Inquiring minds want to know.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Buffer_Zone_Case
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Online wright

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2014, 03:03:55 PM »
^^^Some scary, legitimate points there. Anti-choice protesters aren't the most calm, self-disciplined people around.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2014, 03:27:12 PM »
The Rude Pundit had a good post yesterday.  He had a photo of the little church some of the anti-choice people go to.  He suggested they get a dose of their own medicine.  He suggested that church be protested like they do abortion clinics. That the paritions be video taped, photographed, photos of them with their phone number and home address be posted on telephone poles around the area. That their sidewalk be blocked bodily, and the protestors try to council the paritioners into pro-choice positions or to leave their church.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Video stirs up anti abortion hornets
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2014, 03:37:05 PM »
^^^ That, I would like to see! ^^^
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.