Author Topic: A Basic Question  (Read 4348 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #290 on: July 01, 2014, 04:51:51 PM »
You know, you could just answer the questions. I no longer associate closely with "my former brothers" so I can't easily ask them these questions.[1]

And you are right here with the info I need, being sarcastic instead of helpful. I wonder why.

I'm not being helpful?  No, I am not going to help you condemn, ridicule, or badmouth Witnesses just like I would not help someone condemn, ridicule, or badmouth homosexuals.  I've already explained why homosexuality exists.  And the scriptures have not changed.  Christians are instructed to keep sexual relations between a married man and woman.

Other than that your questions are totally unrelated and all over the place.  The topic is not Jehovah's Witnesses.

Just pointing out that for Jst to explain the differences between what the JW's taught back when I was a member and what he now believes would be, in his own words, helping me "to condemn, ridicule, or badmouth Witnesses".  Why would that be, if the JW's got everything right the first time, back in 1878 or 1914 or 1974?

Furthermore, if Jst is telling us what he believes, and he is a JW, how could he say "the topic is not Jehovah's Witnesses"? It most certainly is, if he is here representing himself, not just as a private person chatting on the internet with no particular religious viewpoint, but instead as a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Gotta represent, Jst. [imagine me awkwardly throwing gang signs ;)]

You are correct in that I am not representing my personal interpretation of things.  I have nothing that I did not receive.  I represent Jehovah and his witnesses best by representing the scriptures and imitating Christ the best that I can.  I cannot do that while gossiping about others.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #291 on: July 01, 2014, 05:58:13 PM »
You are drunk, aren't you, Mr.B?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #292 on: July 01, 2014, 07:53:16 PM »
You just misrepresented my position. Absolutely NOWHERE have I stated that my definition of morality (i.e. - what morality is about) is "the perfect word of God". So you just presented a Straw-man argument (another logical fallacy).

It was hyperbole.  You assume your morality is superior to the ancient Jews and if I disagree it's only because I "rationalize" it or there is something wrong with me.  So I ask, who made you God?

And once AGAIN you just misrepresented my position. Where did I ever say that my morality is "superior"? You are just making things up. I said your morality (the one that is based in the bible) is irrational, for one because it violates the law of non-contradiction (as I have noted elsewhere regarding a double standard), secondly because it is based upon a "because the bible says so" assertion (ad hoc and question begging), third because it sets up (and has setup) a system which is not the most beneficial for human well being and the lessening of unnecessary harm (such as owning people as property, killing homosexuals/unruly children, ripping babies from the wombs of enemy tribe woman, and taking virgins for marriage and slavery - all which can easily be avoided with the alleged powers of an "all-powerful" deity), and fourthly (and perhaps most importantly), it presents a morality in which an alleged "God" can violate it's own rules (or sanction others to violate the alleged "moral" rules) while still claiming that both are "moral" (such as infanticide).

Btw, I don't believe in your "God" thing, remember? Just like I don't believe in Santa Claus, unicorns, or Horus.

Quote
Now, if you think that morals are subjective then please say so and perhaps others here can have their go from there. If not, and you think morals are objective (i.e. - unchanging and applying to all people at all times) then please state that so that your position will be clear as to how you think such things as slavery (and beating slaves, etc) is actually moral.

This is what you are claiming, that morals are unchanging and applying to all people at all times.  That's why you insist the Jewish system was evil without any actual knowedge of it.  Again it's the fallacy of Presentism.  You are trying to impose your morals on them with the assumption that your morals are the standard from which all other morals should be judged.

A few points here. First, if you read that whole article on Wiki regarding Presentism you will find that there is no such thing as a "fallacy of presentism" (at least not there). So that is something you just made up out of thin air. Historians do not agree (i.e. - it is opinion) as to what moral judgments should be made regarding the actions of past people toward one another. Yet, if you think God is unchanging (i.e. - that its alleged moral code and "holiness" always apply) then you cannot simultaneously claim that they didn't apply at sometime in the past. What your argument would amount to is a case of Special Pleading. "Oh, X is immoral but it wasn't immoral for these special people back then." This is why I asked you to answer whether or not you are a moral relativist. Elsewhere though, you have indicated that you believe morals do not change but that their applications change. However, that is just a linguistic difference without any real distinction (like saying, "I am always honest but I lie sometimes."). The ten "commandments" might as well have said, "Don't lie but you can lie sometimes." If you have a system that amounts to nothing more than following orders then how on earth can you determine if your actions are actually moral or not? What is deemed morally wrong today could be flip flopped tomorrow and you should still follow it, right? Is your position that murder (for example) can be wrong today but not yesterday?

What you are calling "morally perfect", it seems, is a big circular argument. How do you know the bible is morally perfect? Because your interpretation says so?

-The bible is morally perfect
-But it endorses infanticide, slavery, and genocide (which are not moral even by it's own standards)
-That was then, this is now. Those rules don't apply to us.
-So you think morality (which is supposed to represent God's alleged "nature") changes with the times then?
-No, morality doesn't change. How it is applied changes.
-How do you know that?
-Because the bible say so.
-So then, you're saying that whatever the bible says is morally perfect b/c what is morally perfect is what the bible says?

« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:06:36 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #293 on: July 02, 2014, 10:28:41 AM »
Jst is not allowed to analyze his positions, because they are based on the bible. He is only going to quote scripture. From the same text that he is not allowed to analyze. Why does he think that is a reasonable way to decide if something is true or right?

Again, you know he would never accept that ("It says so right here in my holy book!") as a reasonable way to decide whether something is morally right or wrong from a devout Muslim or a devout Hindu. Or would he assume that, because it is in a book, and people believe it came from a god, so it must be true.

Would he immediately accept Scientology or Rasta just because someone quoted from their book at him? Wouldn't he try to figure out if what they quoted made logical sense or was actually true first?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #294 on: July 02, 2014, 02:28:35 PM »
And once AGAIN you just misrepresented my position. Where did I ever say that my morality is "superior"? You are just making things up. I said your morality (the one that is based in the bible) is irrational, for one because it violates the law of non-contradiction (as I have noted elsewhere regarding a double standard), secondly because it is based upon a "because the bible says so" assertion (ad hoc and question begging), third because it sets up (and has setup) a system which is not the most beneficial for human well being and the lessening of unnecessary harm (such as owning people as property, killing homosexuals/unruly children, ripping babies from the wombs of enemy tribe woman, and taking virgins for marriage and slavery - all which can easily be avoided with the alleged powers of an "all-powerful" deity), and fourthly (and perhaps most importantly), it presents a morality in which an alleged "God" can violate it's own rules (or sanction others to violate the alleged "moral" rules) while still claiming that both are "moral" (such as infanticide).

Btw, I don't believe in your "God" thing, remember? Just like I don't believe in Santa Claus, unicorns, or Horus.

No.  All you have done is project your morality on ancient people and used your magic ring to distort scriptures.  There is no contradiction except according to your magic ring.  And you want to focus on this ancient culture because you do not want to confront what I said about Christian principles.

My opinion of the Jewish culture is irrelevant.  I've not made claims about it.  Try to prove their culture wrong all you want.  That is not my argument.  I said the moral principles given to Christians are perfect.  You know you cannnot defeat that so you want to revert to a very ancient culture where you have no actual data or evidence for the amount of suffering that existed or even what was neccessary for survival.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #295 on: July 02, 2014, 02:41:57 PM »
You are drunk, aren't you, Mr.B?

Yes I was. Passed out at about 4 p.m. EST and didn't wake up till this morning for work. I am not proud of this fact.


Edit:

Apparently I blacked out. Which means that I don't remember writing the posts I made after 4:20 p.m. est yesterday. So please accept my apologies.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 03:07:34 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #296 on: July 02, 2014, 02:47:57 PM »
Quote
No.  All you have done is project your morality on ancient people.

Are you saying that there was a time in history where a person liked being raped or enslaved or stoned to death against their will?

Are you saying that there was a time when those things made moral sense?



You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #297 on: July 02, 2014, 04:54:12 PM »
Even more to the point, would you like to live like by the rules of the ancient Jews (or any other ancient culture: Egyptians, Aztecs, Romans, Chinese) now? If not, why not?

If it was okay to stone women to death, to torture criminals, to hang thieves up alive for birds to eat, to rape or  enslave your political enemies and to bash their children's brains out then, why is it not okay now? What has changed?

You have brought up "presentism" several times. That just refers to the common historical practice of looking at the past without taking cultural differences and the subsequent changes into consideration. We laugh at the big afros and bell bottoms that people wore in the 1970's just because they look silly to us today. But every time period seems normal and right to the people living in it. Being aware of presentism does not mean you have to uncritically accept everything people did in the past as correct.

BTW, the people today whose beliefs and practices are closest to the earliest Christians are sects like the Armenian Christians, the Nestorians of India and the Egyptian and Ethiopian Coptics. Not the JW's by a long chalk.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #298 on: July 05, 2014, 01:55:33 AM »
No.  All you have done is project your morality on ancient people and used your magic ring to distort scriptures.  There is no contradiction except according to your magic ring.  And you want to focus on this ancient culture because you do not want to confront what I said about Christian principles.

LOL. You dodged the points I raised. Go read them again. First, I have claimed no magic ring. It is you who is making claims to the magic supernatural stuff, remember?? Perhaps you are projecting an unconscious wish of not believing nonsense magic? Nonetheless, merely claiming there is no contradiction doesn't mean you have addressed the contradiction I raised. This is once again your "Because I say so" fallacy. So your denial will be dismissed as a dodge and I'll wait for you to actually address what I raised in a rational fashion. Secondly (and I have already mentioned this multiple times now) it wouldn't matter one bit if I agreed that your personal interpretation of "Christian morality" was good/perfect or whatever (and I don't), such an assertion would not entail some "divine" thing did anything. That is just your argument from ignorance fallacy again. "I can't see how any set of books could be as perfect as this. So a god must have done it!"

My opinion of the Jewish culture is irrelevant.  I've not made claims about it.  Try to prove their culture wrong all you want.  That is not my argument.  I said the moral principles given to Christians are perfect.  You know you cannnot defeat that so you want to revert to a very ancient culture where you have no actual data or evidence for the amount of suffering that existed or even what was neccessary for survival.

WOW. So you think ripping babies from the womb, smashing little babies against the rock, stoning unruly children, killing homosexuals, and beating slaves within an inch of their life (under some twisted 'context' of yours) was somehow "necessary for survival"?? Is this alleged "Jehovah" of yours inept, not all-powerful, or not all-loving? Why would you even trust that these precepts (OT or NT) are from a god? Secondly, asserting that you have a "perfect moral system" doesn't mean that you do. And since you are the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. First you would need to define what "perfect" means in this context. Then define what "moral" means. And then, demonstrate that such a thing is actually presented (objectively) in the bible. That's quite a mountain to climb since the word "perfect" means different things to different people, the word "moral" means different things to different people, and no Christian sect can agree on how to interpret those pages.

But the funniest part about this situation for you is that even if you could demonstrate all three of those pieces of the challenge (i.e. - a sound definition of "perfect", a sound definition of "moral", and a demonstration that such a thing exists in your NT) absolutely NONE of that would demonstrate "evidence of Jehovah" (as you claimed earlier). In order for you to do that you would have to rule out all other more likely possibilities which do not need that assumption (such as that men wrote things down over time and interpreted writings as they went along - as one example). Muslims, for example, claim to have perfect morality as well (and just like you they are using their own personal subjective interpretation). And each time we bring counter-examples to them (just like you) they spin and rationalize the Koran, the Hadith, and the teachings of their early leaders in order to continue asserting "perfection" - which basically, once again, turns in right back into personal opinion (which is of course why I ask you early on if this was just all about personal opinion for you).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 02:05:12 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #299 on: July 05, 2014, 01:57:36 AM »
Dude i thought you split.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #300 on: July 05, 2014, 05:06:27 PM »
median is right-- I have talked to many Muslims about how their Quran contains stuff that they would not consider good behavior today. And they say the same things that Jst is saying here: well, life was so difficult back then, that god had to give the people rules that made sense in the historical context. They were living in a savage time, so they had to make war on pagans to survive, they had to have slavery to survive, they had to hide the women away top survive, they had to allow men to have four wives to survive, they had to let girls as young as 10 be married to survive. And when would these rules no longer be in effect? Not at all clear. Allah did not write the use-by date for the Quran in big flaming red  letters across the sky.

So, Jst, Jehovah God saw no need to actually make things better for people, so he had to give the ancients temporary rules for surviving that had to be followed to the letter upon pain of death, but that would make no sense at all in 2014.  In fact, most of the bible, AKA god's temporary rules for the ancient people would seem criminally insane to many people in 2014.

But since the rules came from god, some people in 2014 would still try to follow them, ignoring the memo written permanently across the sky in big flaming red letters where god explained that the OT and some of the NT was meant to be temporary, in force only until x date, and only for the ancient Jews at any rate. And the other sky memo in big flaming red letters about Jesus changing everything (except, of course, the things he did not change) would get lost, or be hard to interpret, or only be given to a handful of people around 1870.

These people would then have to go door to door telling everyone individually about what Jehovah God wanted, one person at a time. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #301 on: July 06, 2014, 04:15:06 AM »

You are correct in that I am not representing my personal interpretation of things.  I have nothing that I did not receive. 
Now there's a statement that needs deconstructing and analysing, and when we do, we may reach an interesting conclusion.

I don't intend to be personal here as it sounds to me as if "I have nothing that I did not receive." is a phrase common amongst the religious in the boastful, false-humility way that they seem to revel in - So let's get started...


Imagine that you are given a hammer, a pile of nails and a large quantity of good-sized lengths of wood. For years, generations of your family have lived in a cave, have used the hammer for digging for roots; have used the nails for cleaning their ears and as spear tips, and have burned the wood for heat.

You travel to another land and there see that other people have been given hammer, nails and wood, but they build houses that are warm, comfortable and protect families. You return to your land and your draughty, dirty cave and try to explain but everyone calls you an idiot and a heretic "Hammers are for digging!" "Nails are for ears and spear points!" "Wood is for burning!"

You try and explain about the wooden houses and your family start to shout at you, "We live in a cave, we have all lived in a cave for ever and we will continue to live in a cave!"

You realise that your family just hate to admit that they are wrong and their beliefs are so strong that when information reaches them, if it conflicts with what they have been taught for generations, then they become frustrated and angry. The anger becomes so great that you leave, go to the other land and build a house. You still love your family but are sad that they will not listen to reason,

All religion teaches that we must not change. We must have one set of immutable laws. There is only one way of doing things and, to speak or act against this is heresy.

The atheist is here to tell you to use your and other people's knowledge, ideas, and experience to make a better world, a freer world, a world in which progress, not stubbornness and denial, shape our future.

You have probably seen this as a quote:

A: "But last week you said that we should do this! And now you are saying we should NOT do it! What are you? Some sort of idiot?"
B: "But things are different now, we know more, we are wiser. When the circumstances and the evidence change, I change my mind... What do you do?"

So, when you say, "I have nothing that I did not receive." think also, "but that does not mean that I should always do the same thing with those things I was given: the same thing that was done 1,000 years ago. There is always room for progress and development. There is more than one way."

We here are trying to get the believer to "think outside the box." When you do, you will not always be right but, every now and again, there will be a breakthrough and we will all benefit.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:18:29 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #302 on: July 06, 2014, 04:48:21 AM »
^ great post, shame it will wasted on an arrogant closed mind.
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Offline median

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #303 on: July 10, 2014, 10:57:01 AM »
Yep, he ran.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline FredAgars

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #304 on: July 26, 2014, 05:58:41 AM »
Jst, I don't know what you mean by Israel-- the modern state of Israel? Or the society of the ancient Hebrews?

First century Jews.

Quote
I am willing to make a guess: there is less suffering and death in both atheistic Denmark and Japan than in either modern Israel or ancient Hebrew society. What do you think?

I don't know, but I highly doubt it, not counting suffering inflicted on them by others and I don't mean modern Israel.

Quote
Anyway, Jst, are you actually trying to argue that any slave-based society could be a better place to live than one that does not rely on the ownership, buying and selling of human beings? Do you think any of that society's slaves (who are always trying to escape, revolt, disobey, buy their freedom, etc.) would agree with you? And if ancient slavery was A-OK, then what was the point of the whole Exodus story? That the Israelites would have been fine with being the slaves of the Egyptians, if only their masters had followed the biblical slavery rules?

No that's not what I'm saying.  I would say that a volunteer based society would be better than ancient or modern societies.  But I am saying this:

"Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery, however, total domination of one human being by another (as the Israelites suffered under Egyptian rule) was not permitted.[17][18] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[16] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[19] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_slavery

Quote
Would you like to become my slave, Jst?

That would depend on the alternative.  Israel was not set up to be a perfect society, and it didn't have an economy that could provide employment for everyone, or even the majority, but the laws on slavery did set them apart from their neighbors.  The Bible does not establish any economic system.  Slavery was a matter of survival for people on both ends of the stick.  There was no alternative, not because of morality but because of the capability of the nation.

You cannot look back on it while assuming that modern economic conditions have always existed.  Further the present economics systems are breaking down as nations go further and further in debt.  Millions of people die each year from starvation.  Millions more die because of the inability to get healthcare.  These are all preventable deaths.  This is all a direct result of modern economics and evil people.  Where is your disgust of that?  Why are you so willing to judge what an ancient culture did but not modern culture?  How many people die each year from cigarette smoke?  Yet because of the economic system evil people continue to sell them.  People are destroying the planet all to make a dollar.  Where is your disgust of that?  How many abortions occur every years?  Worldwide 1.3 million per year occur according to Answers.com. And these are legal abortions only.  None of this happened in ancient Israel.

It is more than just hypocritical to judge ancient Israel.

   
Well those were real good questions.. Answer is same. Greedy humanbeings care for nothing except money..

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #305 on: July 26, 2014, 11:41:31 AM »
Is that a statement about why humans do the stuff they do? Or why they are not "moral"
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Offline Jag

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #306 on: July 26, 2014, 05:37:32 PM »

Well those were real good questions.. Answer is same. Greedy humanbeings care for nothing except money..
:?

You ought to meet junebug72. I think she's camping somewhere at the moment (?), but she'll be back sooner or later. I imagine the two of you will find you have a lot in common.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #307 on: July 26, 2014, 08:08:14 PM »
Yep. It's all human greed. Uhhh, didn't the great loving sky father makes us that way? And made the earth with finite resources so people would get desperate, sorry, greedy,  and fight over land, water, minerals, etc?

I am not saying that there are not greedy people, who want more than their fair share. But what is a fair share of the earth's resources? If the resources were shared equitably, everyone on the planet would be able to have a living standard about that of the average person in China.

That is, a lower middle class lifestyle with a several generations living in a small apartment of 3 or 4 rooms, electricity for only part of the day, limited running hot water, space heaters and fans for cooling, a small tv, a phone, a motorcycle, a couple of bikes, a few appliances, a few changes of clothes per person, and a very basic diet with some protein every day.

Every inch of arable land used for producing food--buh-bye big lawns and parks.  Public transportation, not private vehicles. Laundromat for communal clothes washing. Lots of food prepared from scratch.[1] Not a lot of leisure time, because everything from getting to the market to preparing a meal would take a lot longer.  Everyone could have basic medical care, especially for younger people, but not much high tech intervention or expensive end of life stuff. You get to be 80 or 90 and whatever disease you get, that's it for you. No surgery for stuff like big noses or wrinkles. No liposuction, diet plans or home workout rooms, but with all the walking and hauling, people won't be overweight. And that would be about it.

That lifestyle might be indefinitely sustainable-- as long as the whole world follows strict population controls, like a max of two children per couple.

Nobody in the world would be able to live like the average US family, with large apartment or houses, as many children as the couple wants to have, separate rooms for different activities, grandma in a nursing home, several motor vehicles, several computers, printer, copier, several tvs, lots of kitchen appliances (coffee maker, microwave, toaster, mixer, blender, etc) convenience foods, washer and dryer, central heat and air, and of course, a security system and/or a firearm or two to protect all that stuff.

So, China's living standard okay with all the religious folks here who are concerned about human greed? That is what your god made the earth to handle. Except we in the US don't want to live like the Chinese. We have far more than our share and we want it to stay that way, don't we?  But since Jesus is coming back soon anyway, why not buy another SUV?

Yes. Communist China is sustainable, as long as they don't become greedy and get busy consuming the planet like US people. Whoops! Too late!
 1. And everything remotely edible--dog, snake, turtle, loofah sponges, chicken feet and rooster combs-- eaten as food!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline One Above All

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #308 on: July 26, 2014, 08:13:36 PM »
Well those were real good questions.. Answer is same. Greedy humanbeings care for nothing except money..

That is not an answer. At least not the way you wrote it. Did you mean that humans are greedy? Then it might be an answer. Or did you mean that greedy humans are greedy? Because that, while true, answers nothing.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2014, 08:14:27 PM »
Yep. It's all human greed. Uhhh, didn't the great loving sky father makes us that way? And made the earth with finite resources so people would get desperate, sorry, greedy,  and fight over land, water, minerals, etc?

I am not saying that there are not greedy people, who want more than their fair share. But what is a fair share of the earth's resources? If the resources were shared equitably, everyone on the planet would be able to have a living standard about that of the average person in China.

That is, a lower middle class lifestyle with a several generations living in a small apartment of 3 or 4 rooms, electricity for only part of the day, limited running hot water, space heaters and fans for cooling, a small tv, a phone, a motorcycle, a couple of bikes, a few appliances, a few changes of clothes per person, and a very basic diet with some protein every day.

Every inch of arable land used for producing food--buh-bye big lawns and parks.  Public transportation, not private vehicles. Laundromat for communal clothes washing. Lots of food prepared from scratch.[1] Not a lot of leisure time, because everything from getting to the market to preparing a meal would take a lot longer.  Everyone could have basic medical care, especially for younger people, but not much high tech intervention or expensive end of life stuff. You get to be 80 or 90 and whatever disease you get, that's it for you. No surgery for stuff like big noses or wrinkles. No liposuction, diet plans or home workout rooms, but with all the walking and hauling, people won't be overweight. And that would be about it.

That lifestyle might be indefinitely sustainable-- as long as the whole world follows strict population controls, like a max of two children per couple.

Nobody in the world would be able to live like the average US family, with large apartment or houses, as many children as the couple wants to have, separate rooms for different activities, grandma in a nursing home, several motor vehicles, several computers, printer, copier, several tvs, lots of kitchen appliances (coffee maker, microwave, toaster, mixer, blender, etc) convenience foods, washer and dryer, central heat and air, and of course, a security system and/or a firearm or two to protect all that stuff.

So, China's living standard okay with all the religious folks here who are concerned about human greed? That is what your god made the earth to handle. Except we in the US don't want to live like the Chinese. We have far more than our share and we want it to stay that way, don't we?  But since Jesus is coming back soon anyway, why not buy another SUV?

Yes. Communist China is sustainable, as long as they don't become greedy and get busy consuming the planet like US people. Whoops! Too late!
 1. And everything remotely edible--dog, snake, turtle, loofah sponges, chicken feet and rooster combs-- eaten as food!
Sources on above points?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #310 on: July 27, 2014, 06:54:59 AM »
Defiance,
I'm interested: Which points demand sources other than our own observation? Where might the observations be wrong/counter-intuitive?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #311 on: July 27, 2014, 08:21:21 AM »
How much resources each person would take up in this "fair-for-all" community, and how much resources are available.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #312 on: July 27, 2014, 01:23:48 PM »
Defiance, I suppose I could look up all the data comparing resource use in China vs the US. Or you could do it yourself. I do know off the top of my head that the US uses more petroleum and water per capita than any other country, IIRC. If everyone in the world used resources the way we in the US do, we would need a few extra earths.

Now that India and China have started doing what we have been telling them to do, ie live more like us, the earth is really in trouble. Resource use and environmental damage are going to be the nuclear threats of the future. We have been able to reduce our pollution, even as we have increased our resource use. But that is because we have outsourced our pollution producing industries to other countries. Like China.[1]

Also, China is considered the world standard for average living conditions. Meaning, if you put everyone's lifestyle together, the most representative and sustainable would be China. Partly because there are so many people there, but also because they have achieved a living standard that is comfortable, everyone has the basics, nobody is starving, entire families are not living on the sidewalks like in India, there are not hordes of homeless street children, etc.

Of course they did it by force, under a dictatorship. That is the sad part--so many people seem to prefer being told what to do by some powerful entity.[2] Religious people want Jehovah or Allah or Jesus to be in charge. Non-religious people dream of that perfect human leader, wise, thoughtful, kind, who will do all the right things and take care of all the problems so the rest of us can get back to the x-box or cooking show. Well, Jesus is not coming to fix things, and neither is King Arthur or Obi Wan Kenobi.

It will be up to us to fix the mess. And it will not be a perfect paradise because the world ain't like that. But we will get better outcomes by doing what has been proven, rationally and scientifically, to work.

 1. And then we condemn China for its terrible pollution, when a lot of their pollution is from manufacturing plastic sh!t for us!
 2. We all hate the Chinese one-child policy, esp the part where the government forces everyone to use birth control or have abortions. I hate it, too. But I hate starving children more. Elderly folks in China remember the famines. What if the Chinese government had said, in 1980, "We know that traditionally we have had very large families of 8-10 children. But we will have too many people to support in 2000 if we don't cut back on the number of children we are having. Please kindly limit yourself to one or at the very most 2 children per couple." Does anyone think that would have been effective?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.