Author Topic: A Basic Question  (Read 4854 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2014, 01:28:42 PM »


Stating what others have said, that there is no evidence, does not make it true.  Calling people credulous doesn't make it true either.

No the fact there is no evidence is what makes it, there being no evidence,true. What I an other have stated, fact, does not make it true. That it is FACT is what makes it true. So if it say "Pi is not 3" or "bats are not birds" me saying it does not make it true. It is me merely observing the fact that Pi is not three and bats are not birds.

Only a credulous person would give any credence to a book that would state such obviously wrong things.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2014, 11:45:17 AM »


Stating what others have said, that there is no evidence, does not make it true.  Calling people credulous doesn't make it true either.

No the fact there is no evidence is what makes it, there being no evidence,true. What I an other have stated, fact, does not make it true. That it is FACT is what makes it true. So if it say "Pi is not 3" or "bats are not birds" me saying it does not make it true. It is me merely observing the fact that Pi is not three and bats are not birds.

Only a credulous person would give any credence to a book that would state such obviously wrong things.

That is not a logical position.  To say that it's a fact necessitates that you know all possible evidences for God.  That's not possible.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2014, 05:12:52 PM »
A book, or a series of 50+ books, that purports to give people good information about the world should not be full of factual mistakes. A set of encyclopedias full of factual errors would not be considered a good source, compared to a set with no factual errors. At minimum, the book should get basic science info correct, without having to insert stuff that was not there originally.

I still have not gotten a clear response from a bible believing person as to why god never told ancient people to boil water to kill germs and to wash their hands to prevent the spread of disease. Less than 20 words that would have saved millions from needless suffering and death, besides giving real evidence that a god did exist who cared about people.

Instead of good, practical, useful information like that, the bible spends hundreds of pages describing barbaric ways to treat people we don't like, or who are not our kind, or who we own; plus hundreds of pages giving instructions for doing (now obsolete) sacrifices; plus hundreds of pages detailing inaccurate mythological stories based on  primitive oral tales. Oh yeah, and lots of sexy times not between one man and one woman married forever as virgins. Wade through all that and maybe something useful will pop out.

God could have told every group in the world some useful info in person at the same time in 10000 BCE, instead of having to wait for Jesus, then wait more centuries for the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire, wait more centuries for the conferences to decide what of all the ancient writings to include in the bible, wait for the slow development of the Catholic Church, wait for the slow development of the Protestant churches, wait for the religious wars between all of them, and then wait for the long lag time to colonize the world and try to force everyone to convert. Oh, yeah and for the printing press to get invented and for literacy to spread to enough people so one person in the community could actually read the thing and tell everyone else what it said.

Meanwhile, science figured out germs, vaccinations and disease prevention. People started living past childhood and then, living past 40. Diseases are treated, cured and some actually eliminated from the planet. For the first time in history, record numbers of people live past 100. No evidence that any of this came from god.

Nowadays we have lots of Christians telling us that most of the bible is not really that important. God is not in a book, anyway. God is everywhere.  Just focus on a few useful suggestions from Jesus (and lots of other people before him) on how to treat others and try to be a nice person. So, read about a page or two and ignore the rest and it's all good? If not, why not?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2014, 05:15:20 PM »
^^ Well, at least he told them to bury their poop outside of the camp.  ;)
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2014, 06:23:35 PM »
Quote
You can't prove one part of the bible by referring to another part. Especially if the person who wrote the later part was just trying to make the earlier part seem true!

This is not actually a sound argument.  The Bible is not one source.  It's a collection of different sources.  It would be like collecting all the books on one subject then saying nothing inside that book can be used to prove the subject.
what of the books that were omitted or ignored during the process of putting the books of the Bible together? The Gospel of Thomas is a good example.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2014, 06:26:04 PM »
^^ Well, at least he told them to bury their poop outside of the camp.  ;)

And if that was all the bible said, if would have been enough right there. But that info is lost among all the begats and nonsense. How about instructions for building a composting latrine, or how to make a fuel-conserving stove that smokes less? Or how to keep women from dying in childbirth? Or how to treat a baby with diarrhea? Or how to keep your teeth from rotting out? Or a list of useful plants to use for medicines?

Useful, easy to explain stuff. Not in the bible-- or any ancient sacred work. :-\
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2014, 06:45:20 PM »
^^ Well, at least he told them to bury their poop outside of the camp.  ;)

And if that was all the bible said, if would have been enough right there. But that info is lost among all the begats and nonsense. How about instructions for building a composting latrine, or how to make a fuel-conserving stove that smokes less? Or how to keep women from dying in childbirth? Or how to treat a baby with diarrhea? Or how to keep your teeth from rotting out? Or a list of useful plants to use for medicines?

Useful, easy to explain stuff. Not in the bible-- or any ancient sacred work. :-\

Lol look what I found.

"The story about Jesus cursing a fig tree for not producing figs when he was hungry is really stupid. First of all, if Jesus can cure the dead, he can cure his own hunger. Second, if he wanted figs on the damn fig tree, he could have made them (he made the fishes and loaves, remember?). Thirdly, why curse a fig tree?? What good did that do? It whithered up (the Gospels disagree as to when, however). Why not just kick it, or pull it out of the ground... or, why not just realize that it's not fig season?? What a dumbass!"

From http://freethought.mbdojo.com/stupidbible.html
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2014, 07:52:22 PM »
^^ Well, at least he told them to bury their poop outside of the camp.  ;)

And if that was all the bible said, if would have been enough right there. But that info is lost among all the begats and nonsense. How about instructions for building a composting latrine, or how to make a fuel-conserving stove that smokes less? Or how to keep women from dying in childbirth? Or how to treat a baby with diarrhea? Or how to keep your teeth from rotting out? Or a list of useful plants to use for medicines?

Useful, easy to explain stuff. Not in the bible-- or any ancient sacred work. :-\

Lol look what I found.

"The story about Jesus cursing a fig tree for not producing figs when he was hungry is really stupid. First of all, if Jesus can cure the dead, he can cure his own hunger. Second, if he wanted figs on the damn fig tree, he could have made them (he made the fishes and loaves, remember?). Thirdly, why curse a fig tree?? What good did that do? It whithered up (the Gospels disagree as to when, however). Why not just kick it, or pull it out of the ground... or, why not just realize that it's not fig season?? What a dumbass!"

From http://freethought.mbdojo.com/stupidbible.html

I see that you are not aware that the cursing of the Fig Tree is a parable by Jesus addressing Israel and the Jews. The Fig Tree represents the Jews who sinned and turned their backs on God, hence them yielding no fruit.

That is why just because someone has access to post a blog on the internet, they should at least have knowledge of the subject they are studying. Go read Hosea 9 and then get back to that blogger with egg on his face. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%209
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2014, 08:30:58 PM »
Maybe you should read Mark.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11%3A12-25

He came into the temple, flipped shit, and walked out and cursed the Fig tree. Next day, it withered up. Nothing about Israel. Just a fig tree that Jesus had issues with.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2014, 08:37:00 PM »
How are we supposed to know that the fig tree story is a parable? Sure it is silly and unlikely, but a lot of what Jesus did was silly, unlikely, or even impossible. Did Jesus heal people or were those parables? Did he make people rise from the dead or were those parables, too? Did Jesus do the loaves and fishes thing or was that a parable? Did he rise from the dead or was that a parable? Water into wine? Casting out the moneylenders? Demon pigs?

I get it, you can just make sh!t up: Jesus walking on water was a parable for the future Israeli state diverting water from Palestinian neighborhoods, thereby "walking on" the water that belongs to someone else. A parable, and a prophecy! There.

What is the difference between a parable and what is supposed to actually have happened? How can you tell when the parable is unlikely but possible, while the "actually happened" is impossible?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2014, 08:48:36 PM »
Neither one of you has read Hosea 9, I see.

Specifically read Hosea 9:10, then continue to the end. It is more than obvious (to people who study the Bible and actually know about it) that it is a parable.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »
Neither one of you has read Hosea 9, I see.

Specifically read Hosea 9:10, then continue to the end. It is more than obvious (to people who study the Bible and actually know about it) that it is a parable.
Still doesnt explain the fact that Mark says the literal story of Jesus cursing a fig tree and it withering up.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2014, 08:56:24 PM »
Still doesnt explain the fact that Mark says the literal story of Jesus cursing a fig tree and it withering up.

That might not be a factual event. It is most likely just inspired Scripture used to teach a lesson. It is possible Jesus did actually curse it, but like I said, this Gospel verse refers to Hosea 9 and that's all that can be said about it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2014, 09:03:13 PM »
Still doesnt explain the fact that Mark says the literal story of Jesus cursing a fig tree and it withering up.

That might not be a factual event. It is most likely just inspired Scripture used to teach a lesson. It is possible Jesus did actually curse it, but like I said, this Gospel verse refers to Hosea 9 and that's all that can be said about it.
Ah, so now you decide what is fact and fiction? Ha.

And no, the verse is in Mark, where clearly Jesus cursed the fig tree. It's in your own book.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2014, 09:18:20 PM »
Ah, so now you decide what is fact and fiction? Ha.

And no, the verse is in Mark, where clearly Jesus cursed the fig tree. It's in your own book.

Did you read Hosea 9? No, you did not.

I do not wish to call you a fool, but I will say that only a fool can not see that it's a parable.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2014, 09:23:07 PM »
I read the link you provided. 
Doesn't change a thing. Mark, which I assume you did read, counts the story of Jesus cursing a fucking fig tree. Its not a parabel. The tree withered and his people saw it.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2014, 09:31:16 PM »
I read the link you provided. 
Doesn't change a thing. Mark, which I assume you did read, counts the story of Jesus cursing a fucking fig tree. Its not a parabel. The tree withered and his people saw it.

In a parable, you can have as many people as you want in the story. Understand?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2014, 09:32:27 PM »
A book, or a series of 50+ books, that purports to give people good information about the world should not be full of factual mistakes. A set of encyclopedias full of factual errors would not be considered a good source, compared to a set with no factual errors. At minimum, the book should get basic science info correct, without having to insert stuff that was not there originally.

I still have not gotten a clear response from a bible believing person as to why god never told ancient people to boil water to kill germs and to wash their hands to prevent the spread of disease. Less than 20 words that would have saved millions from needless suffering and death, besides giving real evidence that a god did exist who cared about people.

Instead of good, practical, useful information like that, the bible spends hundreds of pages describing barbaric ways to treat people we don't like, or who are not our kind, or who we own; plus hundreds of pages giving instructions for doing (now obsolete) sacrifices; plus hundreds of pages detailing inaccurate mythological stories based on  primitive oral tales. Oh yeah, and lots of sexy times not between one man and one woman married forever as virgins. Wade through all that and maybe something useful will pop out.

God could have told every group in the world some useful info in person at the same time in 10000 BCE, instead of having to wait for Jesus, then wait more centuries for the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire, wait more centuries for the conferences to decide what of all the ancient writings to include in the bible, wait for the slow development of the Catholic Church, wait for the slow development of the Protestant churches, wait for the religious wars between all of them, and then wait for the long lag time to colonize the world and try to force everyone to convert. Oh, yeah and for the printing press to get invented and for literacy to spread to enough people so one person in the community could actually read the thing and tell everyone else what it said.

Meanwhile, science figured out germs, vaccinations and disease prevention. People started living past childhood and then, living past 40. Diseases are treated, cured and some actually eliminated from the planet. For the first time in history, record numbers of people live past 100. No evidence that any of this came from god.

Nowadays we have lots of Christians telling us that most of the bible is not really that important. God is not in a book, anyway. God is everywhere.  Just focus on a few useful suggestions from Jesus (and lots of other people before him) on how to treat others and try to be a nice person. So, read about a page or two and ignore the rest and it's all good? If not, why not?

You have not researched much.  For one it is not always necessary to boil water.  You are assuming there was a need.  Often times running water is sufficient.  Now to hand washing.

Quote
Both traditional religious and secular scholars agree that ritual washing in Judaism was derived by the Rabbis of the Talmud from a more extensive set of ritual washing and purity practices in use in the days of the Temple in Jerusalem, based on various verses in the Hebrew Bible and received traditions. There is disagreement, however, about the origins and meanings of these practices. This article first describes these practices as they exist in contemporary traditional Judaism, then discusses various alternative perspectives on their nature, origins, and meaning.
 
Traditional Judaism requires certain types of ritual washing. Some of these types do not require a special ritual body of water (and can be done with tap water):
 1.Netilat Yadayim Shacharit ("Raising [after ritually washing] the hands of the morning"), when getting up in the morning after a full night's sleep, or even after a lengthy nap, there is the custom to wash one's hands ritually by pouring a large cup of water over one's hands, alternating three times. In the custom of some communities, it is also done without a blessing after engaging in sexual intercourse or other seminal emission.
 2.Netilat yadayim ("Raising [after ritually washing] the hands"), also known as Mayim Rishonim. which is done with a blessing, prior to eating any bread with a meal, and done without a blessing, after touching objects[ambiguous] that convey tumah (such as one's private parts, leather shoes, or a ritually unclean animal[citation needed] or insect or after paying a visit to a cemetery).[3]
 3.Mayim acharonim ("After-waters") a law or custom of ritually washing off one's fingers after a meal, to protect oneself from touching the eyes with hazardous residue.[4]
 4.During a Passover Seder, a third washing of netilat yadayim[5] is performed without any blessing being recited, before the eating of a vegetable, called karpas, prior to the main meal.
 5.After visiting the bathroom, the ritual washing of one's hands as a symbol of both bodily cleanliness and of removing human impurity - see Netilat yadayim above.
 6.Every Kohen present has his hands ritually washed in synagogue by the Levi'im (Levites) before uttering the Priestly Blessing in front of the congregation.
 7.To remove tuma ("impurity") after cutting one's hair or nails
 8.To remove tumat met ("impurity from death") after participating in a funeral procession, or entering a cemetery, or coming within four cubits of a corpse
 9.Some communities observe a requirement for washing one's body (which may be done with tap water) after experiencing a seminal emission, including ejaculation or receiving seminal fluid during sexual intercourse since these activities make the man baal keri (one who is impure due to ejaculation.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_washing_in_Judaism
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2014, 11:11:05 PM »


Stating what others have said, that there is no evidence, does not make it true.  Calling people credulous doesn't make it true either.

No the fact there is no evidence is what makes it, there being no evidence,true. What I an other have stated, fact, does not make it true. That it is FACT is what makes it true. So if it say "Pi is not 3" or "bats are not birds" me saying it does not make it true. It is me merely observing the fact that Pi is not three and bats are not birds.

Only a credulous person would give any credence to a book that would state such obviously wrong things.

That is not a logical position.  To say that it's a fact necessitates that you know all possible evidences for God.  That's not possible.

Do we have to play the damn semantics game? Really? Seriously, you playing the semantics game already led us here.  Oh that's right, you need to distract from the fact you have no evidence. This is a logical position. "Evidence" mean in this context means "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." you know, like the dictionary definition. Notice the word "available."

Continue with your puerile attempts to deflect the conversation from the fact you have no evidence.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2014, 02:58:34 AM »
I still have not gotten a clear response from a bible believing person as to why god never told ancient people to boil water to kill germs and to wash their hands to prevent the spread of disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_washing_in_Judaism
The Jews may well have acted in a way that reduced the transmission of germs, even though they did not have the concept of germs. Washing hands is indeed important. If you have ever been in the 3rd world, you will know what a lack of basic hygiene can do.

Which makes this statement by the Saviour of Mankind all the more remarkable:

M't:15:1: Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
M't:15:2: Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[...]
M't:15:10: And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
M't:15:11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
[...]
M't:15:17: Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
M't:15:18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[...]
M't:15:39: And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala.


Now there is the Son of God, part of the indivisible and omniscient Triune Deity, the very Being that created the Universe and all that is in it, and yet He has no scientific knowledge at all. He's thinking like an Iron Age peasant. He is actively saying that you are wasting your time if you wash your hands before using your fingers to eat food because you simply s**t everything out, so how could that possibly harm you?

And FYI, it is drinking water that should be boiled, and failure to do so has a devastating effect upon the very young.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Airyaman

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2014, 07:37:28 AM »
How are we supposed to know that the fig tree story is a parable? Sure it is silly and unlikely, but a lot of what Jesus did was silly, unlikely, or even impossible. Did Jesus heal people or were those parables? Did he make people rise from the dead or were those parables, too? Did Jesus do the loaves and fishes thing or was that a parable? Did he rise from the dead or was that a parable? Water into wine? Casting out the moneylenders? Demon pigs?

I get it, you can just make sh!t up: Jesus walking on water was a parable for the future Israeli state diverting water from Palestinian neighborhoods, thereby "walking on" the water that belongs to someone else. A parable, and a prophecy! There.

What is the difference between a parable and what is supposed to actually have happened? How can you tell when the parable is unlikely but possible, while the "actually happened" is impossible?

The version in Mark really makes the fig story odd

Mar 11:13  And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
Mar 11:14  And he said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard it.


That's it. Combine it with the Matthew version, and Jesus kills the tree even though it was not the season for it to have fruit for him to eat. Seems rather petty and selfish of God Jr. to kill something for not providing in a time when it doesn't provide. How are we to look at this "parable" in the light of all of this? If it is the Jews who are not producing fruit, and God is cutting them off, what are we to do with the last bit of Mark 11:13?
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2014, 07:42:07 AM »
Still doesnt explain the fact that Mark says the literal story of Jesus cursing a fig tree and it withering up.

That might not be a factual event. It is most likely just inspired Scripture used to teach a lesson. It is possible Jesus did actually curse it, but like I said, this Gospel verse refers to Hosea 9 and that's all that can be said about it.

So if this may not be a factual event although it is recorded as one in two gospels -- and not as a parable spoken by Jesus -- how do you determine what actually happened in the gospels vs what was simply parable, or "inspired scripture" as you have it? What prevents the entirety of the gospels from falling into this category?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2014, 12:26:15 PM »


Stating what others have said, that there is no evidence, does not make it true.  Calling people credulous doesn't make it true either.

No the fact there is no evidence is what makes it, there being no evidence,true. What I an other have stated, fact, does not make it true. That it is FACT is what makes it true. So if it say "Pi is not 3" or "bats are not birds" me saying it does not make it true. It is me merely observing the fact that Pi is not three and bats are not birds.

Only a credulous person would give any credence to a book that would state such obviously wrong things.

That is not a logical position.  To say that it's a fact necessitates that you know all possible evidences for God.  That's not possible.

Do we have to play the damn semantics game? Really? Seriously, you playing the semantics game already led us here.  Oh that's right, you need to distract from the fact you have no evidence. This is a logical position. "Evidence" mean in this context means "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." you know, like the dictionary definition. Notice the word "available."

Continue with your puerile attempts to deflect the conversation from the fact you have no evidence.

Sometimes semantics are important.  When someone calls something a fact that is not actually a fact then it's important.

The fact is that there is evidence for Jehovah.  There is historical evidence, prophetic evidence, answered prayer, and personal testimonies.  In addition, the the perfect morality given to Christians is evidence.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2014, 03:02:53 PM »
In addition, the the perfect morality given to Christians is evidence.

Most of what you said was preposterously wrong.  This jumped out though.  Perfect morality?  Please explain.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2014, 04:04:12 PM »
Oops... nevermind  :o
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 04:08:48 PM by Backspace »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2014, 08:47:11 PM »
Still doesnt explain the fact that Mark says the literal story of Jesus cursing a fig tree and it withering up.

That might not be a factual event. It is most likely just inspired Scripture used to teach a lesson. It is possible Jesus did actually curse it, but like I said, this Gospel verse refers to Hosea 9 and that's all that can be said about it.

So if this may not be a factual event although it is recorded as one in two gospels -- and not as a parable spoken by Jesus -- how do you determine what actually happened in the gospels vs what was simply parable, or "inspired scripture" as you have it? What prevents the entirety of the gospels from falling into this category?
If the Bible (NT) were actually written while Jesus was alive(if he was) could we say that the Bible is ALL inspired scripture,because it was written long after his death(alleged death)?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2014, 10:44:34 PM »
In addition, the the perfect morality given to Christians is evidence.

Most of what you said was preposterously wrong.  This jumped out though.  Perfect morality?  Please explain.
Did anyone's jaw just drop reading Jstwebrowsing's post? First him and his buddies fail to provide evidence, and then they pull this. Goooooood night buds.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2014, 10:49:40 PM »
Did JST list a bunch of hand washing stuff that Jews were supposed to do and imply it was god telling people about germs? Please. Muslims also wash a lot. But washing with dirty, contaminated, germ-filled water spreads disease. And it did. And it still does. The point is about getting rid of germs, not just the rituals of washing to remove imaginary contamination.

Nice try.

Besides, don't Christians say that nobody has to follow the Jewish rituals, because of Jesus? If the washing was about getting rid of germs instead of just being a ritual, why didn't Christians insist on it as well?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2014, 08:24:00 AM »


Sometimes semantics are important.  When someone calls something a fact that is not actually a fact then it's important.

The fact is that there is evidence for Jehovah.  There is historical evidence, prophetic evidence, answered prayer, and personal testimonies.   is evidence In addition, the the perfect morality given to Christians

Sometimes semantics are important.  When someone calls something a fact that is not actually a fact then it's important.


Historical evidence? None. Not a drop. If you want to stretch it to defining belief as evidence, then every god mankind has ever believed in, every contradictory cosmology, every magic think is evidenced.

Prophetic Evidence? No somebody calling themselves a profit and making either vague predictions anyone could do, or all the multitude of FAILED predictions in the Bible that were more specific than say "wars and rumors of wars" or the ones that happened because believers in the Bible had it happen. So It scores "zero"

Answered Prayer? Which is it are your really do intellectually dishonest not to get the point of "WWGHA" or a complete moron?

Personal Testimonies? None. Not a drop. If you want to stretch it to defining belief as evidence, then every god mankind has ever believed in, every contradictory cosmology, every magic think is evidenced.

Perfect Morality? Wow. The evidence of the last fifteen hundred years of history stands in stark contrast to that statement, or this is one of the most blatant of no true Scotsman fallacies ever said.

So we finally get out of the rabbit holes of semantics and you go straight to out and out statements that contradict reality.



Which brings us back to the salient fact there is nothing to separate your beliefs from complete falsehoods, fables, and fictions.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 08:32:27 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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