Author Topic: A Basic Question  (Read 4439 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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A Basic Question
« on: May 13, 2014, 03:24:56 PM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2014, 03:43:37 PM »
Great question GB.  Can't wait to hear the answers.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Jag

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2014, 07:20:21 PM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

Because that's how magic works, according to the good book.[1]



 1. I'm almost certain it was "Pawn of Prophecy" by David Eddings
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Defiance

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2014, 07:27:06 PM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?
And how was it actually said? Last I remembered,  sound needs air or some similar medium to travel through.
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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2014, 08:22:11 PM »
When you're pretending to be real, its kind of fun to dress up imagine that you're doing great things and stuff. Can't blame him for that. At the time, he was real new to the not-existing thing and I'm not surprised that he hammed it up a bit.

Next question?  :)
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2014, 08:28:21 PM »
What? No one here ever talks to themselves when working on a project? "Hmmm...where did I put those scissors?". God wouldn't necessarily need either an audience or a medium for sound to travel through for that sort of puttering muttering. :)

Offline eh!

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2014, 08:33:28 PM »
Sound only needs a medium to travel in if your not god or chuck norris.

Anyhoo he created light before stars so sound propagation would be a no brainer.
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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2014, 08:37:12 PM »
That is allegory. God didn't actually say that while doing the creating. Just like He didn't really rest on the 7th day because an omnipotent being doesn't need to rest.

It's allegorical to let us know that we should rest and allegorical to let us know how God created.

Although, if you want to believe God did the talking, then you can say He was speaking to jesus because Jesus has existed since before creation. Tons of OT examples that foreshadow the NT.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jetson

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2014, 08:47:43 PM »
Let me play the devils advocate here...

I have read some interesting research on how humans relay stories. Basically, we fill in the blanks using our personal experience, our memories (which are flawed most of the time), and what we perceive to be true or rational. I'm totally butchering the actual research, but my recollection is that humans are capable of literally inventing facts, and inserting them into the stories we tell, and literally believing those insertions to be true. This is not the same as lying, apparently. Look up Elizabeth Loftus (False Memories) if you want more details.

To me, this is a survival mechanism, in a sense. In other words, we are incapable of recording every single moment, and then relaying the details, so we make logical leaps, and based on some set of cultural and/or social norms, we allow some level of freedom to each individual to grasp the main points, with little concern on the details.

In the stories such as Genesis, I believe this is basically what many consider the inspired word of the god character, as relayed to a human. I think that many believers are happy to accept the story, and do not consider the details as important. In other words, they don't really care. Since God is real, it doesn't matter whether he uttered the words, or simply (apparently) spoke the cosmos into existence. Add to that the fact that all gods are basically anthropomorphized so that mere mortals can identify with the god, and you have the recipe for human gullibility around these stories.

Or, I'm overthinking it...

P.S. If you really think about it, the god character of the Bible - assuming the most popular and common attributes - would have absolutely no reason to need anything. The idea that this god "wanted" or "needed" anything is completely at odds with his most common attributes of power and perfection. Perfection at its ultimate level, requires nothing - no company, no creativity, no worship, nothing. I have just disproved the god of the Bible. Good night.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 09:17:27 PM »
I'll add it to my list of questions to ask Him one day. Hopefully He won't be exhausted from explaining why Scandinavians are all so smoking hot.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 09:22:56 PM »
From a cultural standpoint, it makes perfect sense. God had to speak the universe into existence.

Ancient peoples almost universally revered the spoken word as having magical properties. Before literacy became common, everything important was orally transmitted and memorized. Lying was criminal behavior (bearing false witness); your word was your bond; prayers, spells and curses had to be spoken aloud.

So of course god had to say stuff to make things happen. Nowadays, god would just send a text.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 09:51:01 PM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

Maybe its schizophrenic.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 01:15:27 AM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

He "said" it by typing it into his computer. God is a programmer. The universe is a simulation.


Offline penfold

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 01:59:18 AM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

It is a good question. I think there is something interesting going on here regarding God's relationship to Hebrew - after all what you've given us is a translation, what God actually says is yehi 'or. I think perhaps this might provide an answer, of sorts, to your question.

Quote
Who did he say it to...?
The Jewish reader.

Quote
Why was there a need to speak?
To make clear that this God, though creator of all, was a Jewish God, and that the Jewish language of Hebrew was the very language of creation.

While I can't provide any direct evidence for this, I would just make the point that whoever assembled Genesis was trying to establish the notion of the 'chosen people' so it would make sense to have a creation account which emphasized that special relationship between God, the Jewish people and the Hebrew language. This may have been especially important as the other creation account (Gen 2 - 3) is far less specific to Jewish identity and seems to share several elements with other known creation stories[1] and so lacked that special relationship element. This would also explain the placing of the Gen 1 story first - almost like an orthodox disclaimer, not dissimilar to the way John 1:1-18 works in the NT.
 1. esp. Babylonian
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 02:22:42 AM »
In the Hebrew, God seems to talk to himself in the present tense, like the story teller is telling you as it happens.

http://scripture4all.org/

(You have to follow the link through the Hebrew/Genesis 1, or the site blocks you.)
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Offline penfold

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 02:34:43 AM »
In the Hebrew, God seems to talk to himself in the present tense, like the story teller is telling you as it happens.

I didn't mean that God was literally talking to the reader! Rather that reader was the motive for having God create through word - perhaps better to have said it is aimed at the reader.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline junebug72

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 10:11:12 AM »
That is allegory. God didn't actually say that while doing the creating. Just like He didn't really rest on the 7th day because an omnipotent being doesn't need to rest.

It's allegorical to let us know that we should rest and allegorical to let us know how God created.

Although, if you want to believe God did the talking, then you can say He was speaking to jesus because Jesus has existed since before creation. Tons of OT examples that foreshadow the NT.


Why do you ignore my posts Skeptic?  Is that how your bible tells you to treat others?  I am not feeling the love man. 

You can't seem to follow the most important commandment from your lord.  Do unto others...geeze!   You make God look confused, vain and cruel.   
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 02:52:52 PM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

Maybe its schizophrenic.

-Nam

Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
I'm schizophrenic,
and so am I.




It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline GoatMan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
For argument, assume God inspired Genesis. Assume He also inspired the Gospel of John. The Gospel of John begins with "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (1:1)... through him all things were made (1:3)... the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us (1:14)." And the book goes on to tell of Jesus.

So God made the world through Jesus. Jesus is the ultimate manifestation of God. And He was always with God (as a part of the Trinity). So that's one reason Christians see Jesus as God incarnate in the Gospels even though Jesus rarely if ever claims divinity.

There are big implications concerning the nature of God. God is not simply transcendent (God the Father), but also imminent (Jesus).  It is His nature to be known. He speaks. He comes to Earth. At the same time His ways are unsearchable (Romans 11:33). It's a paradox.

But when God speaks in Gen 1:1, I argue that it's Jesus creating (along with the rest of the Triune God). There is "let us make man in our image" in Gen 1:26. These are among the places Christians derive the doctrine of the Trinity- God in perfect relationship with Himself. It's how "God is love", not "God has been love ever since He made creatures to show love."

I could go on but I'll stop now.

Offline screwtape

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2014, 09:14:11 AM »
For argument, assume...

Usually when someone begins with this, it is to make a larger point.  You don't seem to make one.  You seem to use those assumptions to conclude something about the nature of god, jesus and the universe.  That makes for a circular argument where your conclusions are built into your initial assumptions.

Or was your intent simply to make some professions of faith?

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 09:33:03 AM »
There are big implications concerning the nature of God. God is not simply transcendent (God the Father), but also imminent (Jesus).  It is His nature to be known. He speaks. He comes to Earth. At the same time His ways are unsearchable (Romans 11:33). It's a paradox.
No. It has nothing to do with a paradox, it is simply a foul-up of the first order by the cretins who wrote the passages that now constitute the Bible. You have to admit that whilst to OT is a mass of superstition and savagery, the NT is a mass of superstition and pleas to be reasonable whilst at the same time killing homosexuals and a ticket to heaven if you can only stop thinking and ignore the discrepancies.

Quote
But when God speaks in Gen 1:1, I argue that it's Jesus creating (along with the rest of the Triune God).
What? That makes no sense whatsoever. God either says it or he doesn't - case closed.
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God in perfect relationship with Himself.
That is simply meaningless
Quote
It's how "God is love"
You may be able to say how this links with the genocides at Yahweh's hands in the OT...

Sir,
You are more gullible than something that is very gullible. I feel sorry for your mind to be at the command of such an intellect.

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I could go on but I'll stop now.
The relief is immense.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline GoatMan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 10:25:14 AM »

Quote
whilst at the same time killing homosexuals
I'm not sure where this is in the NT
Quote
What? That makes no sense whatsoever. God either says it or he doesn't - case closed.
Yes, God literally speaks.  But there is an additional symbolic meaning.  God uses symbols and the like to reveal Himself and His plans to us, just as a teacher (or a scientist) uses analogies to explain abstract concepts.
Quote
That is simply meaningless
Not if God is triune in nature.
Quote
You may be able to say how this links with the genocides at Yahweh's hands in the OT...
Well since "love is patient" and "love keeps no record of wrongs" (1 Corinthians 13) and "love is without hypocrisy" (Romans 12), a passage in 1 Peter 3 explains:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

So God was causing those people to suffer physically so that they could live spiritually as Jesus would soon preach to them forgiveness by His resurrection.  God was in fact patient with them even before He chose to discipline them physically.  And God is not hypocritical in needing us to suffer physically (which is the result of sin) to live spiritually, since Jesus Himself (who is God) suffered for us to be able to forgive us and give us spiritual life.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2014, 10:31:13 AM »
Ge:1:3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Who did He say it to and why was there a need to speak?

A similar problem exists with the concept of time.  If science and religion agree that the universe and time began with the big bang, and if "god" (whatever that means) exists outside of space and time, then the conception of god existing "before" the universe, and then creating it, implies a time sequence.
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Offline GoatMan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2014, 10:38:43 AM »
Usually when someone begins with this, it is to make a larger point.  You don't seem to make one. 

The argument was that if both Genesis 1 and John 1 are accounts of creation or "the beginning," written by the same Author, then you could reasonably use one to explain the other.  I didn't state that outright and I apologize for that. 

Graybeard had a question about Genesis 1 and I explained it using John 1.  I'll admit that I didn't prove any of it to be true, I was just trying to explain what Genesis 1 could actually be asserting.  Ignoring John 1 would be somewhat like reading the intro to any nonfiction book, having a question about something mentioned, and then not going to the chapter that deals with that topic later.  Since the Bible does not have the same layout as most other nonfiction books and Graybread could not just use a table of contents to find the other chapters that deal with creation, he is not at fault.  But since I knew of another chapter that deals with the topic, I pointed it out for him + I gave some commentary which I think falls in line with the beliefs of many Christians/theists.

So, yes, I proclaimed some of the implications of these accounts for those who have faith in a Christian interpretation of the Bible, as I do.  I thought it was good to communicate what I really believe so that you could do more than just beat up a straw man and actually consider a working set of beliefs.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2014, 10:50:10 AM »
Hello Goat Man. Resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here. If you took our every reference to your god in the passages you quoted and substituted Allah or Brahma, would it still make sense to you?

If not, you will begin to understand why they do not make any sense to us.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline GoatMan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 10:55:14 AM »
Hello Goat Man. Resident black dreadlocked commie mommy here. If you took our every reference to your god in the passages you quoted and substituted Allah or Brahma, would it still make sense to you?

If not, you will begin to understand why they do not make any sense to us.

I didn't bring God up.  Graybeard did with his topic.  He also brought the Bible up by quoting it.  I'm just trying to communicate a comprehensive picture of what the Bible says to folks like me who take it literally and find life-guiding meaning in it.  I know I'm not convincing you to believe as I do, I'm just stating what Christians like me tend to believe.  Graybeard and the rest of you can do what you want with that.  Did I misunderstand the purpose of Graybeard's question- that he wanted to know what the Bible was saying in Genesis 1?

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 11:00:52 AM »
I'm just trying to communicate a comprehensive picture of what the Bible says to folks like me who take it literally..........

Have you sold all of your possessions yet?




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Offline GoatMan

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 11:39:27 AM »



Have you sold all of your possessions yet?




I can address this one in a new thread.  Look for it and I hope to get it up soon.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2014, 12:25:56 PM »
I'm just trying to communicate a comprehensive picture of what the Bible says to folks like me who take it literally and find life-guiding meaning in it. 

Did I misunderstand the purpose of Graybeard's question- that he wanted to know what the Bible was saying in Genesis 1?

Let's look at what it says literally from the original Hebrew. Genesis 1:1 When the gods (Elohim, plural) began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form, and darkness was (previously) upon the face of the deep, and wind moved (previously) over the face of the waters. Then.... (the creation began).

The reason that Yahweh talks to himself is because Yahweh was invented by combining several different gods into one. It has nothing to do with the introduction to John which is a misunderstanding of the text by a later author. The bible did not inspire these stories as you think. The stories were invented by polytheistic religions thousands of years before Yahweh himself was invented. The idea that water was the primal element of the universe was common in the ancient near east. The ancient Israelites were not the first to think that the universe was all water before the creation.

Today any educated person would know that the universe was not made from water. It is one of the benefits of science that we have moved beyond the understanding of primitive people, and we have comfortable lives with computers and can kill some of the bacteria and viruses which killed the families of our ancestors usually as babies.
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