Author Topic: A Basic Question  (Read 4623 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2014, 01:01:35 PM »
So you don't believe the evidence.  That does not make it a fact there is no evidence, just like your willingness to be condescending doesn't make you superior, nor even appear superior.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Philosopher_at_large

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +18/-2
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2014, 01:27:30 PM »
Lol look what I found.

"The story about Jesus cursing a fig tree for not producing figs when he was hungry is really stupid. First of all, if Jesus can cure the dead, he can cure his own hunger. Second, if he wanted figs on the damn fig tree, he could have made them (he made the fishes and loaves, remember?). Thirdly, why curse a fig tree?? What good did that do? It whithered up (the Gospels disagree as to when, however). Why not just kick it, or pull it out of the ground... or, why not just realize that it's not fig season?? What a dumbass!"

From http://freethought.mbdojo.com/stupidbible.html

WOW! Whoever said that completely missed the point of the story! If the author of this dribble wasn't aware of the constant and persistent analogies between fig trees, fruit trees, and "bearing fruit" in regards to following Jesus then they simply don't know what they're talking about.

This is the literary equivalent of "If we all evolved from monkeys there why are there still monkeys?"

Shakespeare said "all the world's a stage" what is he nuts? the world isn't a stage, it's a planet! What a dumbass! 

*facepalm
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2014, 01:56:55 PM »
In the medieval times, most people literally believed the bible stories. Were they all morons? In my life, especially in poor countries, I have personally met lots of people who literally believe the bible stories. Are they all stupid?

Or maybe it could be that there is not clear way to tell what in the bible is meant to be taken as metaphor, parable or poetic license, as opposed to what is to be taken completely literally. Remember, for most of human history, most of humanity has been illiterate, relying on the wisdom of the elderly members of the community and the comfort of past tradition. And the traditions said the sacred text is true. All of it.

Only in recent centuries have people begun to use logic, critical thinking and scientific analysis to find out what was real. And amazingly enough, now that many people are analyzing religion critically, more of us find that most of religion makes not a lick of sense......
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2014, 02:45:36 PM »
That is a very strange thing to assert. Wouldn't right now, with the internet, widespread literacy and long life spans, be a much, much better time to start a religion?

At the time in history when Christianity began, most people were illiterate polytheistic pagans who lived to about 40 years of age, in isolated subsistence farming communities ruled by a handful of fairly brutal empires.
Quote from: nogodsforme link=topic=26811.msg619373#msg619373  date=1403215972
Meanwhile, science figured out germs, vaccinations and disease prevention. People started living past childhood and then, living past 40. Diseases are treated, cured and some actually eliminated from the planet.
I'm being picky here, but the low average life expectancy of Ancient Romans at birth is dragged down by the high infant mortality rate; half of all children died before the age of ten. That doesn't mean that people started keeling over from old age when they hit 40.

If an Ancient Roman survived childhood, she would then expect to live until 60 or more. 

And (Wiki):
Quote
Upper Paleolithic: Based on the data from recent hunter-gatherer populations, it is estimated that at age 15, life expectancy was an additional 39 years (total age 54)




Here's a chart about Romans.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 02:47:17 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2014, 03:06:56 PM »
True. The pagan Romans, like the pagan Aztec, pagan Chinese and medieval Arabs were all pretty good at basic sanitation. The medieval Christians, not so much.

In the past the biggest group to die in a society was always babies and young children, followed by the elderly, and then women from childbirth complications. Most families expected to bury a baby or two, more in disease epidemics. That does bring the overall life expectancy stats down.

The huge jump in global population growth since 1950 has been almost entirely due to lots more babies surviving to become adults who then are able to reproduce. [1]

In third world countries today the same holds. If a person makes it to age 2, they have a good chance of living to 60 or older. Problem is, so many people in poor countries don't make it to age 2!  :(
 1. BTW: Babies and children not dying as often nowadays as in the past is due to vaccinations and basic sanitation, not the sudden increased efficacy of prayer. Places that rely on prayer alone because they lack public health measures still have the highest child death rates in the world.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +53/-443
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2014, 04:31:24 PM »
In the medieval times, most people literally believed the bible stories. Were they all morons? In my life, especially in poor countries, I have personally met lots of people who literally believe the bible stories. Are they all stupid?

Or maybe it could be that there is not clear way to tell what in the bible is meant to be taken as metaphor,
parable or poetic license, as opposed to what is to be taken completely literally. Remember, for most of human history, most of humanity has been illiterate, relying on the wisdom of the elderly members of the community and the comfort of past tradition. And the traditions said the sacred text is true. All of it.

Only in recent centuries have people begun to use logic, critical thinking and scientific analysis to find out what was real. And amazingly enough, now that many people are analyzing religion critically, more of us find that most of religion makes not a lick of sense......

Now, if we use those things you mentioned, (logic & critical thinking) we can see which stories are meant to be what. As I've stated many times, you have to be familiar with the OT in order to understand the metaphors in the Gospels. If one refuses to understand this, then they will be the ones with egg on their faces.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2014, 05:22:22 PM »
You mean people need to become more educated, ie, literate and trained in critical thinking. I agree with you. But not for the same reasons.

You would like people to spend their more advanced mental abilities performing the kind of intellectual gymnastics needed to make themselves accept magical explanations as if they were facts. Everyone should be spending their spare time trying to match parts of one ancient mythology text to the parts of another ancient mythology text.  Doesn't matter whether the ancient text is the OT or the Quran or the Gita or the Book of the Dead.

All are about magical symbolic stuff that has no relationship to reality. Other than for cultural interest about what ancient people used to think, a complete waste of time and effort. Contributes nothing to life as we know it today, and requires people to ignore pretty much everything we have learned about the world through science in the past 200 years.

Meanwhile, lots of people are bypassing the ancient texts and using their educations to figure out how the world actually works. They are making new discoveries, inventing things, testing out ideas, collecting data, evaluating evidence. Making this life--the only one we know for sure we have--better for more people. Growing more food, providing clean water, curing disease, developing new sources of energy, reducing pollution, helping people communicate, all the stuff that will make it possible for a populations of 7 billion+  to survive on this limited planet.

I would like people to use their mental abilities to figure out what is real and true, as opposed to what is made up and false. I want people to use their mental resources to analyze evidence and to understand science better. These skills also mean that people will not look at ancient religious texts (that treat magic as if it were real) with the same reverence as illiterate, ignorant people who believe superstitious nonsense.

That is why so many strict religious groups (like the one I was raised in) don't want their young people to go to public schools, or to get advanced training at universities. They might become exposed to smart people who have different views.

If folks don't know too much, they cannot critically analyze their own religions. Critical analysis might lead people to realize that all religions are equally made up nonsense.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3948
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2014, 07:40:02 PM »
So you don't believe the evidence.  That does not make it a fact there is no evidence.

No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2014, 07:52:47 PM »
So you don't believe the evidence.  That does not make it a fact there is no evidence.

No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I have listed some good evidence.  Because some have been lead to try to copy it, doesn't mean it's not good evidence.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3948
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2014, 08:01:07 PM »
So you don't believe the evidence.  That does not make it a fact there is no evidence.

No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I have listed some good evidence.  Because some have been lead to try to copy it, doesn't mean it's not good evidence.


Try restating that in some sort of  English that people can understand.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1967
  • Darwins +83/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2014, 08:11:24 PM »
This is not actually a sound argument.  The Bible is not one source.  It's a collection of different sources.  It would be like collecting all the books on one subject then saying nothing inside tht book can be used to prove the subject.

this would almost be true if you collected every on a subject and made them all available . clearly not the case in the putting together of the bible.


you can't take a collection of works delete some edit others and in a way that is secretive and claim all the info is there for anyone to make a conclusion.

clearly the bible is more in the genres of propaganda, politics, fiction and literature.
Signature goes here...

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1967
  • Darwins +83/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2014, 08:12:52 PM »
^ Sorry poor quoting, not meant to misconstrue JWB words. should be obvious where he ends and i start.
Signature goes here...

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2014, 10:30:11 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale.  But let's compare one and see if the evidence for Jehovah seperates it.  Let's compare the tooth fairy.

Is there a collection of books written over 1600 years testifying to the existence of the tooth fairy?  Is there a nation on earth that ever completely revolved around their belief in the tooth fairy?  Are there prophecies about the tooth fairy?  Is the worship of the tooth fairy worldwide?  Are any words of the tooth fairy written down?  Has the tooth fairy taught  perfect moral principles?  Does anyone go door to door teaching about the tooth fairy?  Do people go to school to learn about the tooth fairy?

Obviously there is no similarity.  When you are ready to talk seriously maybe I will still be here.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2014, 10:34:21 PM »
you can't take a collection of works delete some

Why not?  If some don't show the signs of inspiration they should not be in the canon.

Quote
edit others and in a way that is secretive

Where is your evidence for this?

Quote
clearly the bible is more in the genres of propaganda, politics, fiction and literature.

Clearly to who?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2014, 10:55:09 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale.  But let's compare one and see if the evidence for Jehovah seperates it.  Let's compare the tooth fairy.

Is there a collection of books written over 1600 years testifying to the existence of the tooth fairy?  Is there a nation on earth that ever completely revolved around their belief in the tooth fairy?  Are there prophecies about the tooth fairy?  Is the worship of the tooth fairy worldwide?  Are any words of the tooth fairy written down?  Has the tooth fairy taught  perfect moral principles?  Does anyone go door to door teaching about the tooth fairy?  Do people go to school to learn about the tooth fairy?

Obviously there is no similarity.  When you are ready to talk seriously maybe I will still be here.

Do you consider the stories about the Hindu gods to be factual? Or are they just myths, similar to fairy tales?

The Gita, and other Hindu sacred works are even older than the bible. There are millions of people whose lives revolve around their belief in the Hindu pantheon. There are prophecies, holidays, and sacred rituals.  Their worshipers are worldwide, in Europe, the Caribbean, Australia, Africa and North America--wherever people from India have migrated. Believers think that their moral guidelines come from their gazillion gods. In India, Christianity has managed to convince 2% of the population leave their fairy tales and accept Jesus.

People spend their entire lives learning Sanskrit and studying the sacred works. Hindu mystics and other believers don't cut their hair, painlessly pierce their bodies, smoke hashish, practice vegetarianism and celibacy. With a billion+ members, they do not need to go door to door seeking converts, but they are happy to explain their beliefs to anyone who will listen.
Now would all these people do these things for a made-up fairy tale or a lie? What do you think?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2014, 11:18:21 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale.  But let's compare one and see if the evidence for Jehovah seperates it.  Let's compare the tooth fairy.

Is there a collection of books written over 1600 years testifying to the existence of the tooth fairy?  Is there a nation on earth that ever completely revolved around their belief in the tooth fairy?  Are there prophecies about the tooth fairy?  Is the worship of the tooth fairy worldwide?  Are any words of the tooth fairy written down?  Has the tooth fairy taught  perfect moral principles?  Does anyone go door to door teaching about the tooth fairy?  Do people go to school to learn about the tooth fairy?

Obviously there is no similarity.  When you are ready to talk seriously maybe I will still be here.

Do you consider the stories about the Hindu gods to be factual? Or are they just myths, similar to fairy tales?

The Gita, and other Hindu sacred works are even older than the bible. There are millions of people whose lives revolve around their belief in the Hindu pantheon. There are prophecies, holidays, and sacred rituals.  Their worshipers are worldwide, in Europe, the Caribbean, Australia, Africa and North America--wherever people from India have migrated. Believers think that their moral guidelines come from their gazillion gods. In India, Christianity has managed to convince 2% of the population leave their fairy tales and accept Jesus.

People spend their entire lives learning Sanskrit and studying the sacred works. Hindu mystics and other believers don't cut their hair, painlessly pierce their bodies, smoke hashish, practice vegetarianism and celibacy. With a billion+ members, they do not need to go door to door seeking converts, but they are happy to explain their beliefs to anyone who will listen.
Now would all these people do these things for a made-up fairy tale or a lie? What do you think?

What I think about Hinduism doesn't matter and it's existence doesn't lessen the evidence for Jehovah.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3948
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #103 on: June 21, 2014, 11:37:49 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale.  But let's compare one and see if the evidence for Jehovah seperates it.  Let's compare the tooth fairy.

Is there a collection of books written over 1600 years testifying to the existence of the tooth fairy?  Is there a nation on earth that ever completely revolved around their belief in the tooth fairy?  Are there prophecies about the tooth fairy?  Is the worship of the tooth fairy worldwide?  Are any words of the tooth fairy written down?  Has the tooth fairy taught  perfect moral principles?  Does anyone go door to door teaching about the tooth fairy?  Do people go to school to learn about the tooth fairy?

Obviously there is no similarity.  When you are ready to talk seriously maybe I will still be here.

Do you consider the stories about the Hindu gods to be factual? Or are they just myths, similar to fairy tales?

The Gita, and other Hindu sacred works are even older than the bible. There are millions of people whose lives revolve around their belief in the Hindu pantheon. There are prophecies, holidays, and sacred rituals.  Their worshipers are worldwide, in Europe, the Caribbean, Australia, Africa and North America--wherever people from India have migrated. Believers think that their moral guidelines come from their gazillion gods. In India, Christianity has managed to convince 2% of the population leave their fairy tales and accept Jesus.

People spend their entire lives learning Sanskrit and studying the sacred works. Hindu mystics and other believers don't cut their hair, painlessly pierce their bodies, smoke hashish, practice vegetarianism and celibacy. With a billion+ members, they do not need to go door to door seeking converts, but they are happy to explain their beliefs to anyone who will listen.
Now would all these people do these things for a made-up fairy tale or a lie? What do you think?

What I think about Hinduism doesn't matter and it's existence doesn't lessen the evidence for Jehovah.

This evidence is evidence people believed in Jehovah. This DOES NOT I repeat, DOES NOT evidence to separate it from the tooth fairy. Secondly your "perfect" moral principles include this reprehensible to modern man..and have resulted in wars and suffering...so not perfect.  Secondly since Hindu beliefs are in direct contradiction to your fairy tale mythology you need evidence that is superior to it to have and claim better than it. And you don't have such evidence. So once again, you have nothing, nothing at all to what you know as false.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3948
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #104 on: June 21, 2014, 11:39:30 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale. 

Sure you do; it starts with a "B" and ends in an "ible."
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2014, 11:54:29 PM »
Quote
This evidence is evidence people believed in Jehovah. This DOES NOT I repeat, DOES NOT evidence to separate it from the tooth fairy.

No that's not the evidence I listed.  Look harder.

Quote
Secondly your "perfect" moral principles include this reprehensible to modern man..and have resulted in wars and suffering...so not perfect.

Which Bible principle tells Christians to go to war?

Quote
And you don't have such evidence. So once again, you have nothing, nothing at all to what you know as false.

Repetition does not create fact nor even form an argument.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 11:57:17 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2014, 11:57:02 PM »
Here are the thoughts of one Hindu.

"Lord Irwin asked Gandhi what he thought would solve the problems between Great Britain and India. Gandhi picked up a Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and said: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world."

I agree with that.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 12:01:23 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5783
  • Darwins +151/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Carbon-based life form.
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2014, 12:13:52 AM »
Hey Yahweh, get back in line.

http://www.godchecker.com/


.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3948
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2014, 06:36:35 AM »
Quote
This evidence is evidence people believed in Jehovah. This DOES NOT I repeat, DOES NOT evidence to separate it from the tooth fairy.

No that's not the evidence I listed.  Look harder.



No, if you read what you wrote without God glasses, anyone can see that is exactly what you listed as 'evidence.' Every single word was evidence of belief...not existence. Just because people might fevently believe something does not validate it actually existing: Re: Zeus.



Quote
Secondly your "perfect" moral principles include this reprehensible to modern man..and have resulted in wars and suffering...so not perfect.

Which Bible principle tells Christians to go to war?


Matthew 10:34
Psalm 144:1
Roman 13:4
Deuteronomy 20:1-4
1 Chronicles 28:2-3
amongst hundreds more

Cue apologetics and the words "out of context." Regardless, if the Bible was clear it wouldn't been the justification of so many wars.


Quote
And you don't have such evidence. So once again, you have nothing, nothing at all to what you know as false.

Repetition does not create fact nor even form an argument.

Look in the mirror on that one.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 06:58:47 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6869
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2014, 01:14:42 PM »
No it just means there isn't any good evidence. Evidence that would, say, separate your favored fairy tale from the non existent.

I don't have a favorite fairytale.  But let's compare one and see if the evidence for Jehovah seperates it.  Let's compare Hinduism.

Is there a collection of books written over 1600 years testifying to the existence of the Hindu gods? [Yes.]  Is there a nation on earth that ever completely revolved around their belief in the Hindu gods?  [Yes.]  Are there prophecies about the Hindu gods? [Yes.] Is the worship of the Hindu gods worldwide? [Yes.] Are any words of the Hindu gods written down? [Yes.]  Have the Hindu gods taught  perfect moral principles? [Yes.] Does anyone go door to door teaching about the Hindu gods? [In some countries, yes] Do people go to school to learn about the Hindu gods? [Yes.]

Obviously there is no similarity.  When you are ready to talk seriously maybe I will still be here.

Do you consider the stories about the Hindu gods to be factual? Or are they just myths, similar to fairy tales?

The Gita, and other Hindu sacred works are even older than the bible. There are millions of people whose lives revolve around their belief in the Hindu pantheon. There are prophecies, holidays, and sacred rituals.  Their worshipers are worldwide, in Europe, the Caribbean, Australia, Africa and North America--wherever people from India have migrated. Believers think that their moral guidelines come from their gazillion gods. In India, Christianity has managed to convince 2% of the population leave their fairy tales and accept Jesus.

People spend their entire lives learning Sanskrit and studying the sacred works. Hindu mystics and other believers don't cut their hair, painlessly pierce their bodies, smoke hashish, practice vegetarianism and celibacy. With a billion+ members, they do not need to go door to door seeking converts, but they are happy to explain their beliefs to anyone who will listen.
Now would all these people do these things for a made-up fairy tale or a lie? What do you think?

What I think about Hinduism doesn't matter and it's existence doesn't lessen the evidence for Jehovah.

Actually, Jst, what you think about Hinduism does matter, because of the criteria you used to dismiss belief in the tooth fairy as nonsense. You based your argument (that your faith had to be real as opposed to faith in the tooth fairy) on things like written words, people basing their lives on the belief,  prophecies, moral principles, people going to school to study, and the practice being worldwide.

I countered by demonstrating that Hinduism meets all those criteria as well as your faith in Jehovah does. I was not doing this to prove that Jehovah is not real. I was saying that you cannot dismiss Hinduism (or many other faiths) based on the criteria you used to dismiss the tooth fairy.   You asked a series of questions about the tooth fairy, trying to show that nobody would worship anything like that. You were attempting to demonstrate that your faith is not at all like belief in the tooth fairy. I responded to your questions about the tooth fairy by substituting another real religious faith, practiced by a billion people worldwide.

I have substituted "Hinduism" for "the tooth fairy" in your post above.[1] It should be clear that Hinduism meets the criteria of being as real as your faith, and certainly not being on the same level as the tooth fairy. By using the exact same criteria, you would have to accept Hinduism as true-- or at least as potentially true as your faith in Jehovah.

If you can dismiss the millions of Hindus as people who believe in nonsense and fairy tales (and you do, since you are not a Hindu and do not accept their gods as real) you should be able to apply the exact same logic to your own faith. If you cannot do this, you have to ask yourself why.
 1. I could have used the Mormon faith or Islam or any other widespread, well-established religion. I used Hinduism because it is clearly quite different from Christianity.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2014, 01:55:46 PM »
Matthew 10:34
Psalm 144:1
Roman 13:4
Deuteronomy 20:1-4
1 Chronicles 28:2-3
amongst hundreds more

Cue apologetics and the words "out of context."

There is not one single instruction there for Christians to make war.  Try harder. 

Quote
Regardless, if the Bible was clear it wouldn't been the justification of so many wars.

The Bible is very clear.  Here are some actual instructions given to Christians.

'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Mt 22:39)

'But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you' (Mt 5:44)

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Mt 26:52)

Exactly which part of that is unclear?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1672
  • Darwins +28/-109
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2014, 02:07:41 PM »
Actually, Jst, what you think about Hinduism does matter, because of the criteria you used to dismiss belief in the tooth fairy as nonsense. You based your argument (that your faith had to be real as opposed to faith in the tooth fairy) on things like written words, people basing their lives on the belief,  prophecies, moral principles, people going to school to study, and the practice being worldwide.

I countered by demonstrating that Hinduism meets all those criteria as well as your faith in Jehovah does. I was not doing this to prove that Jehovah is not real. I was saying that you cannot dismiss Hinduism (or many other faiths) based on the criteria you used to dismiss the tooth fairy.   You asked a series of questions about the tooth fairy, trying to show that nobody would worship anything like that. You were attempting to demonstrate that your faith is not at all like belief in the tooth fairy. I responded to your questions about the tooth fairy by substituting another real religious faith, practiced by a billion people worldwide.

I have substituted "Hinduism" for "the tooth fairy" in your post above.[1] It should be clear that Hinduism meets the criteria of being as real as your faith, and certainly not being on the same level as the tooth fairy. By using the exact same criteria, you would have to accept Hinduism as true-- or at least as potentially true as your faith in Jehovah.

If you can dismiss the millions of Hindus as people who believe in nonsense and fairy tales (and you do, since you are not a Hindu and do not accept their gods as real) you should be able to apply the exact same logic to your own faith. If you cannot do this, you have to ask yourself why.

I never said there weren't similarities with other religions.  I said there are no similarities with the tooth fairy, "my favorite fairytale".  My reasons for not accepting Hinduism are not the same reasons I have for not accepting the tooth fairy.  I also would not call Hinduism a fairytale.  Hinduism is deeply steeped into spiritism.  I don't think spiritism is a fairytale.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2014, 04:31:01 PM »
^ Sorry poor quoting, not meant to misconstrue JWB words. should be obvious where he ends and i start.
That's good of you to apologize, Eh, but you evidently haven't noticed that you can modify your posts if you make an error - or if you wish to pretend that you didn't say something  8).

PS I'm not sure how long the Modify option is available for. But it's certainly more than the two minutes between your erroneous post and subsequent apology!

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11131
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2014, 04:33:49 PM »
PS I'm not sure how long the Modify option is available for. But it's certainly more than the two minutes between your erroneous post and subsequent apology!

I think it's either 30 or 60 times that interval.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2014, 04:33:59 PM »

Sometimes semantics are important.  When someone calls something a fact that is not actually a fact then it's important.

The fact is that there is evidence for Jehovah.  There is historical evidence, prophetic evidence, answered prayer, and personal testimonies.  In addition, the the perfect morality given to Christians is evidence.

Yes, like the fact that you are attempting to call your claims "evidence for Jehovah" when they are not evidences. They are claims.

"Historical Evidence" - What historical writing can count as "evidence" of claims to the supernatural or miraculous? Again, these are just claims of hear-say, and claims (written down or otherwise) are not evidence that a deity exists. They are evidence that someone believed stuff and made claims. Anyone can make claims by writing things down. That doesn't magically turn their claims into evidence - especially since we know that humans create religions and make up fictional and fantastical stories for various reasons.

"Prophetic Evidence" - And again you have the same problem. This is the, "because I say so" fallacy (ad hoc). Merely claiming that some alleged person of history (far removed) was a "prophet" (or that "a prophesy was fulfilled) is not evidence. It is a CLAIM. You will need actual evidence to backup that claim. Need you be reminded that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Mere claims are not evidence. In this case you are claiming that prophesy was fulfilled (Jews disagreeing with you) and you have not demonstrated that 1) any claim was a "prophesy" or 2) that such a prophesy was "fulfilled by Yahweh". Vague utterance which can be re-interpreted to suit confirmation bias after the fact are not evidences of fulfilled prophesy. They are evidences that someone made claims.

"Answered Prayer" IS A CLAIM!!! You need actual evidence to demonstrate the cause of a given phenomena. Did you not know that correlation does not equal causation? Anybody can SAY their prayer was "answered" but their saying so doesn't make it so. This is, again, the "because I say so" fallacy (begging the question). So too, counting the "hits" and ignoring the misses is called confirmation bias. So merely claiming that someone was "healed by Jesus" and then ignoring the counter evidence when someone dies is irrational and dishonest. Still, the claim is not evidence.

• "Personal Testimonies" are (once again) CLAIMS. You need actual evidence to demonstrate that these claims (like "Jesus healed me") are factual. But you don't have that. You just have, "Because I believe it and I say so..." Again, anyone can make claims. You need sound evidence to backup those claims.

"The Perfect Moral Quality of Christians" is yet another CLAIM. So you've basically made claim after claim after claim after claim, and then attempted to ASSERT that your claims are evidence. They are not. Claims are not evidence and if you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true you will begin by understanding and applying the difference. In this instance, anyone can merely CLAIM that "Christians are morally perfect" and then (when given a counter example) say that person was not a "true Christian", or use some other spin/rationalization tactic. But that just shows how much this claim is NOT "evidence of Jehovah". It is, instead, a step toward confirmation bias. Also, it is irrational because it commits the No True Scotsman fallacy. If "true Christians" can and do "sin" then they are not morally perfect. The bible itself is not morally perfect, since your own alleged Yahweh violates it's own rules throughout (slavery, genocide, infanticide, human sacrifice, rape, etc). So on two accounts this claim fails as "evidence of Jehovah".


This stuff you are claiming is not even ordinary evidence (as you would require of a salesman at your door selling cheap credit cards or making extraordinary claims about magic potions and then asking for your money). So it's really disingenuous of you to merely assert these things as evidence when you yourself wouldn't accept such tactics if a salesman, or someone else from another religion, attempted to use these types of arguments on you. Anyone can SPIN and rationalize their way into the continuance of believing nonsense. Every religion does that. It's irrational when Muslims do it, when New Agers do it, and it's irrational when you do it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 04:49:23 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline shnozzola

Re: A Basic Question
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2014, 08:22:23 PM »
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Mt 26:52)

Exactly which part of that is unclear?

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Mt 10:34)

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-34.htm

Tough religion, that.  Once again cue apologetics.
Edit:  I already know the excuse, Jst - different sword meaning, different context - been there done that, as a Christian.  You can use the bible to excuse any and every action.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 08:28:09 PM by shnozzola »
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs