Author Topic: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?  (Read 303 times)

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Online Nam

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Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« on: May 19, 2014, 06:27:31 PM »
A Caterpillar turns into a Butterfly but as a Caterpillar it obviously isn't a Butterfly. Of course some Caterpillars turn into Moths but a Moth is not a Butterfly nor is it a Caterpillar.

A tadpole (pollywog) is not a frog (or toad) because tadpoles live exclusively[1] in the water. A tadpole is not a frog and a toad is not a tadpole.

An egg is not a chicken. An egg[2] is not a snake. An egg is not a crocodile or alligator. A fish is not an egg. A sparrow is not an egg. A spider is not an egg.

So, how is a fetus a human being?[3]

-Nam
 1. there are some who live both on land and water but primarily they live in water since they have gills: frogs and toads do not have gills
 2. in relation to the zygote, ovum, embryo, and fertilization process
 3. this is not an abortion topic but has the loose implication thereof
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 06:54:36 PM »
Add in some rhymes and a few nice pictures and you've got yourself a great kids book there Nam. Dr Seuss style.
Go on up you baldhead.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 08:19:30 PM »
Humans don't really have an active larval phase, while the other organisms you list do.  So this may not be an apples-to-apples comparison.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 08:41:14 PM »


So, how is a fetus a human being?[1]

 1. this is not an abortion topic but has the loose implication thereof

Old Mr Chuckles didn't like what he saw as condescension in my first reply, so I'll give a serious answer.

If you managed to run a tattoo needle up the Mum's clacker and write  "Mr Biscoop is a humourless Galah" on the fetus, it will still be there 50 years later.
Go on up you baldhead.

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 08:54:15 PM »
Humans don't really have an active larval phase, while the other organisms you list do.  So this may not be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Wasn't really going for a direct comparison. This actually stemmed from a recent conversation with a distant cousin of mine who is against abortion; I don't actually like discussing the topic because the argument can get violent[1]. So, I changed the subject to be more about the animal themselves rather than the killing of them. I kept to the actual life of one.

The last thing I asked her was, "So, when the sperm enters the egg is it a human being?" She said (reluctantly), "No." but held to the standpoint of once it had a heartbeat, it was. My point to her was if one killed a caterpillar were they in fact killing a butterfly? If one killed a tadpole were they in fact killing a frog/toad. If one consumed an egg were they killing a bird or a snake, or an alligator etc., and she understood my point but insisted it's different because humans aren't animals. Animals aren't as special as humans are.

When I read earlier about someone (One Above All, I believe) stating, "If I swallowed a seed does that mean I am killing a tree?" (paraphrased) it reminded me of that recent conversation.

Just because something can turn into a human doesn't necessarily mean it is automatically a human. If someone built an android that was exactly like a human and it was developed in a womb, and was born from it, and then killed it then would they be killing a human? Of course not because it is not human but by their logic one would think it would be. I mean, if a fetus can be a human, why can't an android that looks exactly like a human and is born the same way?

-Nam
 1. verbally, or otherwise dependent on the emotional standpoint of the person whether based on religion or personal conviction
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 08:56:32 PM »


So, how is a fetus a human being?[1]

 1. this is not an abortion topic but has the loose implication thereof

Old Mr Chuckles didn't like what he saw as condescension in my first reply, so I'll give a serious answer.

If you managed to run a tattoo needle up the Mum's clacker and write  "Mr Biscoop is a humourless Galah" on the fetus, it will still be there 50 years later.


Irrelevant.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2014, 09:06:32 PM »
^^ You might disagree with my reasoning, but I hardly think its irrelevant to your question.
Go on up you baldhead.

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 09:26:14 PM »
^^ You might disagree with my reasoning, but I hardly think its irrelevant to your question.

If I tattooed a caterpillar would that tattoo, hypothetically speaking, also be on the butterfly after its metamorphosis?

What's the difference?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2014, 10:38:23 PM »
^^ You might disagree with my reasoning, but I hardly think its irrelevant to your question.

If I tattooed a caterpillar would that tattoo, hypothetically speaking, also be on the butterfly after its metamorphosis?

Not entirely sure, but probably.


What's the difference?


Obviously in the case of the caterpillar/butterfly there is more of a physical change, but I would argue it is essentially the same creature.  This is certainly an interesting discussion exploring the idea:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/08/01/157718428/are-butterflies-two-different-animals-in-one-the-death-and-resurrection-theory
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 11:17:49 PM »
So, there's no physical change with a fetus to what is born into a human baby?

This:



Is the same as this:



-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 11:26:30 PM »
Of course there's a physical change. I could hardly deny that.

Mind you, a new born looks like this, not the 4 or 5 month old little munchkin you posted:

Go on up you baldhead.

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 11:42:28 PM »
Of course there's a physical change. I could hardly deny that.

Mind you, a new born looks like this, not the 4 or 5 month old little munchkin you posted:



I can only do so much with a phone but you got my point so don't be a prick.

What difference is there from a fetuses physical change to a new born baby? Minus of course the obvious metamorphosis of one creature turning into another?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 12:10:07 AM »

I can only do so much with a phone but you got my point so don't be a prick.

Just trying to be helpful Nam.



What difference is there from a fetuses physical change to a new born baby? Minus of course the obvious metamorphosis of one creature turning into another?

-Nam

I don't quite understand this question, as asked. Could you re-phrase it please?
Go on up you baldhead.

Online Mrjason

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 04:55:14 AM »
A Caterpillar turns into a Butterfly but as a Caterpillar it obviously isn't a Butterfly. Of course some Caterpillars turn into Moths but a Moth is not a Butterfly nor is it a Caterpillar.

No a caterpillar isn't a butterfly and vice versa but they are both lepidopteraWiki, despite a caterpillar not having (scaly) wings.

So, how is a fetus a human being?[1]

-Nam
 1. this is not an abortion topic but has the loose implication thereof

It isn't. A Human being is the finished product. The noun "being" defines a human that is "in existence"[2] i.e. not a potential human. Which is how I would describe all stages of development until birth.
This distinction is made in the common law description of murder[3]

"Murder is when a man of sound memory, and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any country of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura..."

In rerum natura meaning in existence i.e. outside of the womb which is why there are separate offences for fetus destruction.

Whilst a baby and a fetus are both human a baby is a human in being and therefore afforded greater protection because it's potential has be realised.
 2. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=being
 3. http://www.lawteacher.net/criminal-law/cases/murder.php

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 06:58:34 AM »
Of course there's a physical difference.  However, as Azdgari already pointed out, humans don't have a larval phase, and in any case, the larval phase of various organisms does not change what species they actually are.  It's no different than calling a human (a member of the species homo sapiens) different names based on their level of development.  For example, adult, adolescent, child, toddler, infant.  The same goes for the pre-natal stages of development, as far as I can tell.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 07:37:43 AM »
You are arguing a point of semantics: the butterfly starts off life as an egg that has been fertilised within an adult female's body. There is then a process of enveloping the embryo in a protective casing in which the foetus will develop and ejecting it as an egg. Only when the foetus reaches a point at which it is independent of the food source within the egg, does the caterpillar appear. This is "the moment of birth."

Thus, as we have the parasitic development of the foetus within the mother’s body to be followed by a period of parasitic feeding on milk, in the butterfly, the foetal stage starts in the body of the adult female, but continues to the parasitic feeding in the egg which is exterior.

A living creature, comparable of independent existence appears in both cases. With the caterpillar, the independence is immediate whereas, with a baby, it is probably about 9 or 10 years. However, the time taken for exterior development is an irrelevant consideration, so the caterpillar, pupae, butterfly parts are also irrelevant.

To perform an abortion on a butterfly, you would either have to remove a developing egg or squash the egg that is now outside the adult’s body.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2014, 08:14:00 AM »
Yes, I am playing semantics--but isn't that the point?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 08:22:13 AM »
OK: semantically, a caterpillar is not a foetus of anything: case closed. : )
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 11:08:07 AM »
OK: semantically, a caterpillar is not a foetus of anything: case closed. : )

Not what I meant. I mean perhaps this subject should be approached by semantics. Not the usual way that really hasn't ever gone anywhere.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 01:52:15 PM »
OK: "A caterpillar is a potential butterfly." A foetus is a potential human being.

I'm always amazed at anti-abortion Christians when
(i) the Bible gives instructions on how to induce an abortion
(ii) The period evacuates a potential human.
(iii) A miscarriage evacuates a potential human.

and  (ii) and (iii) are no longer believed to be "a curse from God"/"The work of Satan."
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Nam

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Re: Is a Caterpillar a Butterfly?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 03:09:13 PM »
OK: "A caterpillar is a potential butterfly." A foetus is a potential human being.

I'm always amazed at anti-abortion Christians when
(i) the Bible gives instructions on how to induce an abortion
(ii) The period evacuates a potential human.
(iii) A miscarriage evacuates a potential human.

and  (ii) and (iii) are no longer believed to be "a curse from God"/"The work of Satan."

Outlawing miscarriages here in the states is a top priority in some red states:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2010/02/20/utah-bill-criminalizes-miscarriage/
http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/02/miscarriage-death-penalty-georgia

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.