Author Topic: Proof #1  (Read 224 times)

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Offline thissiteiscrazy

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Proof #1
« on: May 10, 2014, 05:41:23 AM »
I would like to discuss the first proof. First of all Jesus is describing that these things will be given to those who have the proper faith. Just because someone asks for something they need does not mean they will be given it. I ask to be cured of cancer but you have no real faith that it will happen; why should it happen? And just because you desire something does not mean you will receive it. If you desire a cheeseburger does that mean God should give you one on the spot. Maybe you do not need a cheeseburger but a romantic partner or just a hug in a lonely time. If you need companionship and God gives you a cheeseburger; in what way does that serve you? And if the world prays to cure cancer? What if everyone who prays does not have true faith? And if someone who brought cancer upon themselves through lifestyle and does not change their lifestyle; how does that serve them? We create our own lives and situations. We are not victims. How many stories are there out there of true cancer miracles? Many people have wished for cancer free lives and made changes and found freedom from cancer. Maybe God gives us the power to create our own happiness or hell?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 05:44:42 AM »
Since you believe the Bible to be irrelevant, so is this thread.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2014, 05:48:30 AM »
Actually i know entire congregations that have prayed for a fellow xtian to be cured of cancer but nothing. 


You have actually proved nothing. you have just made up a story that reinforces what you want to believe .


curious, was your post really an example of your standards of proof?
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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 05:51:04 AM »
Can't wait for "proof" #2


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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 06:02:29 AM »
Many people have wished for cancer free lives and made changes and found freedom from cancer.

This is an important point. To paraphrase you "People wanted something, did something about it and got what they wanted." Where is the need for the hand of god in this?


Offline Graybeard

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 06:16:05 AM »
If you read “The Sermon on the Mount” Mat:7:/Luke:11:9, you will see that it starts with

M't:5:1: And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
M't:5:2: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,…

Christ them makes a number of statements and, as He is incapable of lies, we must believe Him.

M't:5:12: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
M't:5:13: Ye are the salt of the earth: […]
M't:5:14: Ye are the light of the world. […]
M't:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jesus, whose Word is Law, makes no mention of the level of faith required. The people who came to The Mount, came to hear Him. We can imagine that some came out of curiosity and others because they were already “of the faith”. And yet He promises the same thing to them all.

In Luke, the words are place in a difference scene but nevertheless, we see

Lu:11:10: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Lu:11:11: If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

The idea of “If a son shall ask” also recalls the parable of the Prodigal Son and in neither case is the level of faith described – only, we assume, “some” faith. This is because we will all have different levels of faith, yet Jesus’s words cover us all.

Now, as human experience has been that, as you say, some prayers are answered, some are not and for some, the answer is “wait”. If you pray to the milk-jug, the answers are the same. It then becomes impossible to say whether this is just ordinary chance or the actions of a deity.

But what we can say is that it really does not matter what you pray to, the chance of you getting the answers “Yes”, “No” and “Wait” remain the same.

This is the same as:

A: “What are you doing?”
B: “I am setting up my machine to scare away elephants.”
A: “There are no elephants around here.”
B: “Yes, it is very effective isn’t it?”
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Chronos

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 06:50:09 AM »
I would like to discuss the first proof. First of all Jesus is describing that these things will be given to those who have the proper faith.

Oh, that True ChristianTM argument is soooo tiring. You haven't read anything else on this forum have you? You don't even have the power to consider the emptiness of your argument, do you?

I have to believe in your version of religion in order for you to be cured? Really? Well, then there are no True ChristiansTM anywhere and you are showing religion and faith as the sham that it is. Pointless.


I have no idea why I bothered to reply.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 10:58:59 AM »
And just because you desire something does not mean you will receive it.

Yup. Now separate the rest of the same of your statement from the same statement replacing Jesus and God with fairies

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 11:05:18 AM »
I would like discuss first proof. First King Agga describing that things given those who have proper faith. Just because someone ask for something they need not mean they will be given it. I ask be cured of cancer but you have no real faith that will happen; why should happen? And just because you desire something  not mean you will receive it. If you desire cheeseburger does mean Ugabuga should give you one on spot. Maybe you not need  cheeseburger but romantic partner or just hug in lonely time. If you need companionship and Ugabuga gives you cheeseburger; in what way that serve you? And if world prays to cure cancer? What if everyone who prays does not have true faith in Ugabuga? And if someone brought cancer upon themselves through lifestyle and not change lifestyle; how does that serve them? We create own lives and situations. We not victims. How many stories there out there of true cancer miracles? Many people have wished for cancer free lives and made changes and found freedom from cancer. Maybe Ugabuga gives us the power to create our own happiness or unhappy bad place?

And I an to treat you statement as more serious than that, why?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 11:09:18 AM »
Maybe God gives us the power to create our own happiness or hell?

He wouldn't have to do anything to provide that. Power is unnecessary. We humans have enough innate competence to do good or bad on our own. A god wouldn't even have to exist for those conditions to exist.

Which is one of the reasons I assume he doesn't.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Proof #1
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2014, 08:00:30 PM »
Right so Christians may or may not be cured if they pray?

Provide evidence that those that prayed and were cured were cured by god, not doctors or our own immune system.

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.