Author Topic: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones  (Read 677 times)

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Online MatCauthon

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because they have absolutely no clue as to what they are talking about. WTF is wrong with these people?

i'm at work, and someone (a known theist) asks how anyone can be confident there is alien life. i respond with, "well, the universe is 13.8by old...," and i am asked how i know that, because "everything" is debatable." uh, no it's not. the age of the universe/earth, plate tectonics, gravity, evolution, those things are not debated in the scientific community because they simply ARE, they are explanations of observations of fact."

blank stares. "well how do you know it is 13.8by old?"

"the light from the oldest stars are 13.8by light years away..."

rinse and repeat. fml. 

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 09:29:43 AM »
how anyone can be confident there is alien life.

I don't think anyone is confident that there is alien life. Did you let a theist walk you down a strawman lane?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 10:38:56 AM »
I'd be more concerned with how the ID crowd (creationists in lab coats) pervert and distort scientific evidence with their own brand of pseudoscience.

Here's a handy guide of how to properly respond:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 10:35:30 PM »
because they have absolutely no clue as to what they are talking about. WTF is wrong with these people?

i'm at work, and someone (a known theist) asks how anyone can be confident there is alien life. i respond with, "well, the universe is 13.8by old...," and i am asked how i know that, because "everything" is debatable." uh, no it's not. the age of the universe/earth, plate tectonics, gravity, evolution, those things are not debated in the scientific community because they simply ARE, they are explanations of observations of fact."

blank stares. "well how do you know it is 13.8by old?"

"the light from the oldest stars are 13.8by light years away..."

rinse and repeat. fml.

Understand, there are many theists who feel threatened by science because it runs counter to their understanding of their faith.  Some Christian theists, for example, feel the known universe is about 6,000 years old due to a literal interpretation of Genesis.  Therefore, any information or ideas which run counter to that belief puts the person in the position of either reevaluating their beliefs or rejecting the science.  If one is convinced they must stay faithful to a literalist understanding then rejecting the science is seen as the only option. 

It has been my experience to ask questions, not to trip them up but to learn exactly what is meant by blanket statements.  Just realize it is bloody unlikely you will ever change their minds.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

P.S. Welcome to the group. 
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Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 12:00:47 PM »
because they have absolutely no clue as to what they are talking about. WTF is wrong with these people?

i'm at work, and someone (a known theist) asks how anyone can be confident there is alien life. i respond with, "well, the universe is 13.8by old...," and i am asked how i know that, because "everything" is debatable." uh, no it's not. the age of the universe/earth, plate tectonics, gravity, evolution, those things are not debated in the scientific community because they simply ARE, they are explanations of observations of fact."

blank stares. "well how do you know it is 13.8by old?"

"the light from the oldest stars are 13.8by light years away..."

rinse and repeat. fml.

I believe that the scientists are correct myself, but, it's tough if someone asks me that question personally.   It's hard for me to understand or explain how we "date" the age of light coming from stars.

If I understand correctly, they triangulate on how far a star or galaxy is from us by checking it's position multiple times throughout the year.  The farther away something is, the less it appears to move.

When they do this through powerful telescopes with powerful computers helping to calculate, they can estimate how far away a particular light source is...

Is that essentially correct?  Is there something I'm missing?   I like to be able to explain these things in casual conversation but not being a science major, or math major, there are just some elements that I find tough to explain "how they figured it out for sure".

Carbon dating is another tough thing to explain to someone.   I explain it that if an element that normally breaks down into a lesser element is found, say, sealed in volcanic rock, where it couldn't break down, and we can compare it to nearby instances of the element which did break down, we can estimate how long ago that element was sealed up in volcanic rock.

I just don't fully understand these things, even though I've seen enough to believe that it's much more solid than the insane delusions of faith.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 01:19:07 PM »
I'm no astronomer but I am noisy and opinionated which helps in debates ;)

My limited understanding (and feel free to correct me) is that triangulation, or what's called a 'skinny triangle', is used to calculate star distance out to about 10,000 light years. You are quite correct, by measuring the angle between the sun, Earth and the star at 6 months intervals a giant triangle is formed, trigonometry then gives the distance to the star.
Any further than that I think it's star brightness that is used. Some stars have a known brightness, known as standard candles by astronomers, so by using triangulation to get a calculated distance (up to 10,000 light years away), the star's brightness can be compared with a known calculated distance. Then when 'standard candles' are found further out, by measuring their brightness (or dimness) astronomers can calculate their distance.

The European Space Agency launched the Gaia satellite in December last year which will allow directly measured star distances of between 24,000 and 30,000 light years; trigonometry alone will give a universe age of at least 24,000 years :) . The Gaia satellite will also allow calibration of the standard candle method; stars previously measured by luminosity can now be double checked by trigonometry.

Check out the Cosmic Distance Ladder here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_distance_ladder
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 01:21:11 PM »
I believe that the scientists are correct myself, but, it's tough if someone asks me that question personally

The wonderful thing about science is, you don't have to 'believe'. You can use the same method on your own observations and get the same results. Science is repeatable!!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 01:51:58 PM »
I believe that the scientists are correct myself, but, it's tough if someone asks me that question personally

The wonderful thing about science is, you don't have to 'believe'. You can use the same method on your own observations and get the same results. Science is repeatable!!

You're right, but, to some extent I have to take their word for it because I can't easily personally go into a giant observatory and know how to map the distance of stars every six months.

Do you know what I mean?    For most of us, we just have to see that "most" scientists have independently verified a certain thing, and kind of understand the explanation.

I don't know how to use, nor do I have access to, a partical accelerator, to make sure that the results of some study are correct.

So when I try to explain that to a non-believer, it's hard to put it into terms that are able to be digested.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 02:00:08 PM »
I'm no astronomer but I am noisy and opinionated which helps in debates ;)

My limited understanding (and feel free to correct me) is that triangulation, or what's called a 'skinny triangle', is used to calculate star distance out to about 10,000 light years. You are quite correct, by measuring the angle between the sun, Earth and the star at 6 months intervals a giant triangle is formed, trigonometry then gives the distance to the star.
Any further than that I think it's star brightness that is used. Some stars have a known brightness, known as standard candles by astronomers, so by using triangulation to get a calculated distance (up to 10,000 light years away), the star's brightness can be compared with a known calculated distance. Then when 'standard candles' are found further out, by measuring their brightness (or dimness) astronomers can calculate their distance.

The European Space Agency launched the Gaia satellite in December last year which will allow directly measured star distances of between 24,000 and 30,000 light years; trigonometry alone will give a universe age of at least 24,000 years :) . The Gaia satellite will also allow calibration of the standard candle method; stars previously measured by luminosity can now be double checked by trigonometry.

Check out the Cosmic Distance Ladder here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_distance_ladder

That's my understanding too... and I suppose that if we can measure luminosity of certain light/radiation from a nearby event, then see another event that is 'much dimmer' and have several of these to compare, we can estimate how far away something must be.

Even the Wikipedia article says that beyond a certain point, we're making reasonable estimations, within a certain degree of probability of being correct.

So the universe might be older or younger than we think, and it's possible that science could correct some formula in a decade that shifts how far away we think everything is.


But still, even though there is science printed on that Wikipedia link you posted, I don't understand most of it.   The only way I can trust that a group of scientists didn't just make it up is that many other scientists checked their work.

Do you know what I mean?   I believe it's true, but I am not smart enough to fully understand or repeat the science myself, so, I'm still just looking at it as the most likely explanation.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 02:10:25 PM »
I understand what you mean, but having debated with Christians and observed how they try to twist words, I no longer use the word 'believe', instead I use 'accept'. I accept a scientific consensus on a subject because other scientists have also performed the repeatable experiments and obtained the same results. And as mentioned, if one really didn't accept, or 'believe', a scientist, one could perform the same experiment. Now I know the average person doesn't have a particle accelerator, but if one wanted to, one could study, become a physicist and actually get a job at CERN and use a particle accelerator or become an astronomer and use radio telescopes.
The trouble is, every single creationist I've debated with doesn't want to do this. Maybe because science is difficult. Even just to refute their ideas I have had to learn a huge amount of biology, astronomy, physics, etc, which I must say has been absolutely wonderful. My knowledge of the natural world has increased massively over the past few years because of creationists and for that I thank them.

As a starter, try to get hold of the US series 'Cosmos' with Neil deGrasse Tyson and also another US 3 part series called 'Your Inner Fish', all absolutely fantastic. My eldest daughters 10 and 11 love it. That's their ages by the way, not their names.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline dloubet

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 11:17:02 PM »
Cepheid Variable stars are used to determine the distance to other galaxies. The period of the variation gives you the brightness of the star, and knowing the brightness, and its magnitude, you can calculate its distance.
Denis Loubet

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 11:24:09 PM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.

This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 02:02:38 AM »
Hi YRM_DM;

Were you a Young Earth Creationist? If so would you mind posting a bit about how you went from that view to the current scientific consensus?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline dloubet

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 06:02:47 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?


Denis Loubet

Offline One Above All

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 06:05:55 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

No. It's the old "the Universe just looks old!" argument.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline natlegend

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 06:20:09 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

If it goes against his book, then it ain't true.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline One Above All

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 06:21:34 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

If it goes against his book, then it ain't true.

You make it sound like it's just some old book. It's the unadulterated (except for all the adulterations), unchanged (except for all the changes), perfect (except for all the errors), inerrant (except for all the errors), word of God (except for the fact that it isn't, because there's no such thing).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline natlegend

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 06:22:53 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

If it goes against his book, then it ain't true.

You make it sound like it's just some old book. It's the unadulterated (except for all the adulterations), unchanged (except for all the changes), perfect (except for all the errors), inerrant (except for all the errors), word of God (except for the fact that it isn't, because there's no such thing).

Don't forget the bits that are allegory!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline One Above All

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2014, 06:24:26 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

If it goes against his book, then it ain't true.

You make it sound like it's just some old book. It's the unadulterated (except for all the adulterations), unchanged (except for all the changes), perfect (except for all the errors), inerrant (except for all the errors), word of God (except for the fact that it isn't, because there's no such thing).

Don't forget the bits that are allegory!

No allegories. 100% literal... except for the metaphors and analogies... and maybe an allegory or two.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline natlegend

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 06:28:55 AM »
So now Skeptic54768 denies geometry?

If it goes against his book, then it ain't true.

You make it sound like it's just some old book. It's the unadulterated (except for all the adulterations), unchanged (except for all the changes), perfect (except for all the errors), inerrant (except for all the errors), word of God (except for the fact that it isn't, because there's no such thing).

Don't forget the bits that are allegory!

No allegories. 100% literal... except for the metaphors and analogies... and maybe an allegory or two.

And a sprinkling of random parables
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline One Above All

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 06:31:58 AM »
And a sprinkling of random parables

I knew I was missing something...
But it's all legit.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline natlegend

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 06:36:43 AM »
And a sprinkling of random parables

I knew I was missing something...
But it's all legit.

Oh yes, totally...  &)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 10:08:34 AM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.

This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.

This is what I like about creationists; it is obvious to see their nonsense. One of the creationists I know, when I talked about the Gaia satellite, said "Trigonometry is wrong." Really?! How?! "It just is." This makes it easy for us non-delusional types to see how ridiculous Christianity is and to see that it is just a lie. What I don't like is when some Christians change their views to align with science, it makes it harder for people to see the nonsense.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Online Mrjason

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 10:28:26 AM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.

This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.

This is what I like about creationists; it is obvious to see their nonsense. One of the creationists I know, when I talked about the Gaia satellite, said "Trigonometry is wrong." Really?! How?! "It just is." This makes it easy for us non-delusional types to see how ridiculous Christianity is and to see that it is just a lie. What I don't like is when some Christians change their views to align with science, it makes it harder for people to see the nonsense.

It is funny how they think nothing man made, i.e. trig, measuring devices etc, can be accurate but they believe that something entirely man made is accurate and is definitive proof that other manufactured things are inaccurate.
They're soooo close, just 1 more step is needed

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 11:15:29 AM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.
And how do we know that what the Bible says in Genesis is true and factually accurate?  All I'm seeing is the assumption that it is, presumably based on the statement in 2 Timothy about all scripture being God-breathed and thus useful for teaching and whatnot.  However, even if we take that as a given, there is no reason at all to conclude that everything in the Bible is literally and factually true.  In fact, there is no reason to conclude that most of it is literally and factually true; most of the stories in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, were written not as factual history, but as warnings against human hubris, and they don't need to relate actual events that really happened in order to do that.

Quote from: skeptic54768
This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.
This is why your statements are not credible.  You simply assert that something is so, based not on actual knowledge, but based on the implications of an apocryphal story, and one which no human witnessed according to the story itself.  And yet you expect people to believe that the story represents Truth even though it actively contradicts much of what we've been able to discover, and believers like you have to actively rationalize away all of those contradictions with even sillier ideas like a god magically creating all the stars in the entire universe  from nothing a few thousand years ago.

At this point, I would find the idea that Genesis was written specifically to deceive credulous people like you far more likely than that it represents an accurate and factual portrayal of the creation of the universe.

Online jdawg70

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 11:45:25 AM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.

This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.

Damn.  I was almost certain that you were going to say a demon tricks people into thinking that many stars are billions of light years away.  But in this case, you seem to be saying that it's god doing the tricking.

Huh.  Maybe you are saying that a demon is tricking people into believing falsehoods.  You just happen to name that demon 'god'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 01:15:24 PM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.

This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.

Damn.  I was almost certain that you were going to say a demon tricks people into thinking that many stars are billions of light years away.  But in this case, you seem to be saying that it's god doing the tricking.

Huh.  Maybe you are saying that a demon is tricking people into believing falsehoods.  You just happen to name that demon 'god'.

Maybe he's saying Biblegod's a demon?

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 01:16:25 PM »
Maybe he's saying Biblegod's a demon?

;)

That's what jdawg70 is saying.

-Nam

-One
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: i hate how theists turn scientific debates into opinionated ones
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 03:54:52 PM »
There is no accurate way to determine how far away the stars are. Bible shows us that when God created Adam, he had the appearance of a grown man, yet he was mere seconds old. He was created with the appearance of age.
And how do we know that what the Bible says in Genesis is true and factually accurate?  All I'm seeing is the assumption that it is, presumably based on the statement in 2 Timothy about all scripture being God-breathed and thus useful for teaching and whatnot.  However, even if we take that as a given, there is no reason at all to conclude that everything in the Bible is literally and factually true.  In fact, there is no reason to conclude that most of it is literally and factually true; most of the stories in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, were written not as factual history, but as warnings against human hubris, and they don't need to relate actual events that really happened in order to do that.

Quote from: skeptic54768
This is why a lot of people think the stars are billions of light years away, but they are not.
This is why your statements are not credible.  You simply assert that something is so, based not on actual knowledge, but based on the implications of an apocryphal story, and one which no human witnessed according to the story itself.  And yet you expect people to believe that the story represents Truth even though it actively contradicts much of what we've been able to discover, and believers like you have to actively rationalize away all of those contradictions with even sillier ideas like a god magically creating all the stars in the entire universe  from nothing a few thousand years ago.

At this point, I would find the idea that Genesis was written specifically to deceive credulous people like you far more likely than that it represents an accurate and factual portrayal of the creation of the universe.

If evolution is true, then the Christian faith is dead wrong and Jesus was a liar.

Matthew 19:3-5
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH '?…

Please notice that Jesus did NOT say that God created them billions of years after the beginning. Jesus Himself didn't believe in evolution. There might be plenty of "Christians" out there who claim evolution is true, but they are deceiving. Evolution and Christianity are completely imcompatible.

If evolution is true, Christianity is wrong.
If Christianity is true, evolution is false.

Both can not be true. Was Jesus a liar?

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)