Author Topic: What is the soul?  (Read 2082 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2014, 06:59:19 AM »
It was her spirit, to me, that allows you to remember the woman she was before Alzheimer's.  To me that good spirit was not harmed by the disease only her body.
That makes no real sense to me.  It honestly sounds like you're using the idea of 'spirit' to symbolize something else, but it isn't really working because it depends on agreeing with your idea of what 'spirit' means.

Honestly, the confusion I have goes away if you replace the word 'spirit' with 'actions'.  As in, "her actions, to me, are what allows you to remember the woman she was before Alzheimer's.  To me, those good actions were not harmed by the disease."  That becomes an eminently true and understandable statement; because the idea of spirit is much more poorly defined and can have a different meaning depending on who you're talking to, talking about someone's 'spirit' is more likely to confuse the issue than anything.

Great observation Jaime.  Yes it is hard to define spirit.  Extremely hard.  If there is one it's like no other part of me.  It can not be examined under a literal microscope.  I think it is a useful concept because it has helped me so much. 

I am trying to share the experience because I care. 

I can't seem to explain very well the difference between harming the body and harming the soul.  I need to do some pondering.  That answer was off the top of my head.   I really need to think it through.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2014, 07:30:30 AM »
Ok JB,

Can you re-explain what the soul/spirit is?

I'll try.



What is it's function?

It is a concept that is useful in coping with tragedy and suffering.

The will to survive? :?


How does it affect your physical body?

Gosh my mind is twisted.  I don't think I'm doing so well.  Let's say it quiets the crazy world I live in so I can have peace in my mind.  It quiets the myotes.




How does it affect you actions?

This I think is the other way around.  I think your actions affect your soul.  Like if you rape someone.  A normal non psychopath person would feel guilt and shame for their actions.  If you save a person's life it makes you feel wonderful. 





Is it the very basic essence of who you are?

Yes I think it is. 





I am epidemic's spirit, I am the guy who loves his kids, who is sad when old yeller dies, who on occasion helps little old ladies on his way to work when you see them struggling to clear their driveway (true story but sadly not frequent enough).  The guy who sees the female form and really really thinks it is hot.  The guy who hates people being victimized.  My spirit is the practical joker in me and the generally happy essence of me.

Is that my spirit or soul?


Yes I think it is.  You have a beautiful soul epidemic.




If I had no soul/spirit, how do you think I would be different?  Would I just be a practical logical biological machine.  Or Would I just be a self serving, sexual preditor, concerned with my own food drink and spreading my seed around?

I think you may be different.  I can't say for sure.  I have never known someone w/o a soul.  I can't get the image of a rock out of my head here.  See I think all living things have spirit.  There's this squirrel that is so persistently getting in my bird feeder.  The carpenter bees have bored away a lot of our eaves.  The mosquitoes have no fear.  Viruses are harder than hell to kill.  I can't think of a better example than Life of Pi.  Except maybe Rocky Balboa. :laugh:

I'm sorry for my shortcomings.  I wish I could explain it better.

Why do we call liquor spirits?  Real curious.  That's all.  It's not a set up question I promise. :angel:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2014, 08:07:28 AM »
Well thanks for trying to explain.  I have more insight into your thoughts but alas I can see no reason that a soul/spirit

An immortal, thinking entity that is the essence of who I am needs to exist to accomplish all that I am.

I believe I am a chemical computer programmed from the time I first formed a brain sufficiently complex to begin learning in utero until this point.
I feel I am the product of Electro/chemical signals and biological connections.  I cite as proof the simple fact that I can physically alter the essense of me in minutes
with an operation or injury with semi predictable results.  If there was an entity separate from my physical body I would think it would tend to try to keep me me regardless
of the physical changes you made to my brain.  I may not be able to move my arm, see, or walk but I would think if the soul existed it would be like ALS.  ALS Lou Gehrig's disease is pure evil but when you suffer form it in the advanced stages, I am still Me being trapped in a
prison that is a broken body.  I would still love my kids, my wife, I would want to help people, and I would still hate victimization.  As I understand it your higher reason is not affected only your motor skills. 

Alzheimers, frontal lobe injuries affect your basic essence.

Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2014, 08:45:48 AM »
Well thanks for trying to explain.  I have more insight into your thoughts but alas I can see no reason that a soul/spirit

An immortal, thinking entity that is the essence of who I am needs to exist to accomplish all that I am.

I believe I am a chemical computer programmed from the time I first formed a brain sufficiently complex to begin learning in utero until this point.
I feel I am the product of Electro/chemical signals and biological connections.  I cite as proof the simple fact that I can physically alter the essense of me in minutes
with an operation or injury with semi predictable results.  If there was an entity separate from my physical body I would think it would tend to try to keep me me regardless
of the physical changes you made to my brain.  I may not be able to move my arm, see, or walk but I would think if the soul existed it would be like ALS.  ALS Lou Gehrig's disease is pure evil but when you suffer form it in the advanced stages, I am still Me being trapped in a
prison that is a broken body.  I would still love my kids, my wife, I would want to help people, and I would still hate victimization.  As I understand it your higher reason is not affected only your motor skills. 

Alzheimers, frontal lobe injuries affect your basic essence.

I am almost ready to concede this debate.  The only thing lurking in my head is the idea that it only changes the essence if people don't remember the way you were before Alzheimers or frontal lobe injuries. 

I don't think that kind of physical change should undo what a person spends years to accomplish.   Even death can not do that.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2014, 10:28:42 AM »
Well thanks for trying to explain.  I have more insight into your thoughts but alas I can see no reason that a soul/spirit

An immortal, thinking entity that is the essence of who I am needs to exist to accomplish all that I am.

I believe I am a chemical computer programmed from the time I first formed a brain sufficiently complex to begin learning in utero until this point.
I feel I am the product of Electro/chemical signals and biological connections.  I cite as proof the simple fact that I can physically alter the essense of me in minutes
with an operation or injury with semi predictable results.  If there was an entity separate from my physical body I would think it would tend to try to keep me me regardless
of the physical changes you made to my brain.  I may not be able to move my arm, see, or walk but I would think if the soul existed it would be like ALS.  ALS Lou Gehrig's disease is pure evil but when you suffer form it in the advanced stages, I am still Me being trapped in a
prison that is a broken body.  I would still love my kids, my wife, I would want to help people, and I would still hate victimization.  As I understand it your higher reason is not affected only your motor skills. 

Alzheimers, frontal lobe injuries affect your basic essence.

I am almost ready to concede this debate.  The only thing lurking in my head is the idea that it only changes the essence if people don't remember the way you were before Alzheimers or frontal lobe injuries. 

I don't think that kind of physical change should undo what a person spends years to accomplish.   Even death can not do that.


now I am starting to feel bad.  I have never had a person concede in a debate that they might be wrong.   eeeek!!!  I don't really want to take away what someone gets happiness from.  I have always actually dreaded taking way a bible thumpers faith because once i do that they may lose hope.

In your case and really even the thumper's case I don't think they should feel bad at the truth being found.  All it does is put the power with you.  You are in control of your destiny and or fate, if you get cancer it is you who has the strength to overcome it, there is no need for an external magical force.

Offline screwtape

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2014, 10:32:35 AM »

now I am starting to feel bad.  I have never had a person concede in a debate that they might be wrong.   eeeek!!!  I don't really want to take away what someone gets happiness from.  I have always actually dreaded taking way a bible thumpers faith because once i do that they may lose hope.

In your case and really even the thumper's case I don't think they should feel bad at the truth being found.  All it does is put the power with you.  You are in control of your destiny and or fate, if you get cancer it is you who has the strength to overcome it, there is no need for an external magical force.

You are blanching at the prospect of helping someone become more rational?  Because you have helped increase her knoweldge and lose some superstitious beliefs?  I don't understand.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2014, 10:46:28 AM »

now I am starting to feel bad.  I have never had a person concede in a debate that they might be wrong.   eeeek!!!  I don't really want to take away what someone gets happiness from.  I have always actually dreaded taking way a bible thumpers faith because once i do that they may lose hope.

In your case and really even the thumper's case I don't think they should feel bad at the truth being found.  All it does is put the power with you.  You are in control of your destiny and or fate, if you get cancer it is you who has the strength to overcome it, there is no need for an external magical force.

You are blanching at the prospect of helping someone become more rational?  Because you have helped increase her knoweldge and lose some superstitious beliefs?  I don't understand.

Generally speaking I find someone believing in god and feeling compfort in the idea harmless.   Ignorance is bliss.  Especially with JB, She does not appear to modify her life destructively around the beliefs, she gets compfort knowing that when she is starting to feel weak that someone helps pick her up.  Whether she knows it is the own mind or an external force does it really matter, in the end she finds peace in it. 

If someone believes food in a yellow bowl tastes better when eaten with a red fork.  Why would i take that away from them? 

If someone time traveled into the future and saw that tomorrow I would die, and there was no way around it I would find peace in my ignorance of the fact that death loomed with no way of changing it.  I am also in the desert and have no way of communicating with the outside world so nothing I do can prepare my family, I can not get my finances in order.  Basically giving me the information will only serve to make my last day on earth feel hopeless.

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2014, 10:54:55 AM »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2014, 11:16:09 AM »
Ahem....

http://whatstheharm.net/

Glad my name wasn't on that list. 8)  neither was spiritual not religious.  hip hip hooray 

Atheism not on the list.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2014, 11:19:34 AM »
Atheism is not a belief.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

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Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2014, 11:24:11 AM »
Atheism is not a belief.

I did not say it was.  Chiropractor isn't a belief either.  It's on the list.  Colon cleansing.  On the list.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2014, 11:27:56 AM »
Chiropractor isn't a belief either.  It's on the list.  Colon cleansing.  On the list.

Yes they are.  They are beliefs that their particular approach & methods work.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2014, 12:36:44 PM »
http://leavingthecircus.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/im-spiritual-not-religious/

That's one weak argument right there.  That's one persons opinion.  Probably atheist.  I've got links.  Shared them here before.

I do win this debate every time.  There is a difference.  A huge difference.  Got to go do some stuff now.  I'll get them to you later. 

Have a good day!

Chiropractor isn't a belief either.  It's on the list.  Colon cleansing.  On the list.

Yes they are.  They are beliefs that their particular approach & methods work.

Fair enough.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2014, 12:53:22 PM »
Generally speaking I find someone believing in god and feeling compfort in the idea harmless.

It's not.  But let's set that aside for a moment.  Suppose someone believed the earth was flat, the sky was a dome and the stars were glued to the inside of it.  Would you worry about correcting that person's understanding?   If so, why are you here?  Why do you argue with the religious knowing there is a possibility that you might change someone's mind?  Why do you argue about anything?  Why not just let the oblivious go on about their lives, obliviously believing demonstrably untrue things?

Suppose someone had a piece of toilet paper stuck on the bottom of her shoe.  Would you worry about telling her? 

I do not see this as any different.

She does not appear to modify her life destructively around the beliefs,

I don't really think you know her well enough to know.  I suspect there are many people who have similar nutty ideas who don't seem to be impacted negatively in an obvious way, but are in a million little ways. It adds up.

But either way, I find your position a little demeaning and selfish.  Why do you get to have good information but also get to decide she doesn't?  Does JB not deserve a better understanding of how the world works (regardless of how resistant she is to it)?

she gets compfort knowing that when she is starting to feel weak that someone helps pick her up.

You think it is not destructive to believe that when in fact there is no one to help pick her up?

Whether she knows it is the own mind or an external force does it really matter, in the end she finds peace in it. 

peace shmeace. When someone needs help, they need help.  They do not need to think the cavalry is on the way when in fact it is not. Talk to LoriPinkAngel about that.

If someone believes food in a yellow bowl tastes better when eaten with a red fork. 

Apples and oranges. 

I think you are seriously underestimating the damage done by holding ridiculou and false beliefs.  There is a saying - that which can be destroyed by the truth should be.

There is another saying.  It is the Litany of Gendlin.  The opening part of it is in my sig.
What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Gendlin

 

If someone time traveled into the future and saw that tomorrow I would die, and there was no way around it I would find peace in my ignorance of the fact that death loomed with no way of changing it.

Apples and oranges. 

And you are not one of those atheists who says he prefers the uncomfortable truth to a comforting lie.  You may not believe in gods, but neither are you a rationalist.

 
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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2014, 01:48:59 PM »
It's not.  But let's set that aside for a moment.  Suppose someone believed the earth was flat, the sky was a dome and the stars were glued to the inside of it.  Would you worry about correcting that person's understanding?   If so, why are you here?  Why do you argue with the religious knowing there is a possibility that you might change someone's mind?  Why do you argue about anything?  Why not just let the oblivious go on about their lives, obliviously believing demonstrably untrue things?

Does this belief in the world being flat cause them comfort?  Are they rocket scientists where the falacy will cause them real harm in their carreer/life?



Suppose someone had a piece of toilet paper stuck on the bottom of her shoe.  Would you worry about telling her? 

Judgement call, do you believe that telling them will cause them more embarrasment then walking around with the toilet paper all day and then figuring out they looked stupid all day.  I would feel fine telling them about the TP.  The god dillusion, a this point I am on the fence as to whether it is a good thing to convince them that they are wrong, as I still do not see the harm.  They don't feel foolish because there are many other people equally deluded, they can go through life with out feeling stupid and even if they figure it out one day they will know they were in good company.


I don't really think you know her well enough to know.  I suspect there are many people who have similar nutty ideas who don't seem to be impacted negatively in an obvious way, but are in a million little ways. It adds up.

But either way, I find your position a little demeaning and selfish.  Why do you get to have good information but also get to decide she doesn't?  Does JB not deserve a better understanding of how the world works (regardless of how resistant she is to it)?

I do not know her except for what she has expressed.  As for demeaning, I am not sure respecting ones expressed feelings is demeaning.



You think it is not destructive to believe that when in fact there is no one to help pick her up?

Actually we all have someone to pick us up, she is right about it being the spirit.  I just see it as being her mind that is the spirit.   She sees it as an external force but we all have that little voice in our head, if she recognizes it as an external force what does it harm that she does not know from whence the voice came.

peace shmeace. When someone needs help, they need help.  They do not need to think the cavalry is on the way when in fact it is not. Talk to LoriPinkAngel about that.


The way I see her is that she does not view god, nor her spirit as riding in on a white horse.  They offer advice I happen to believe the advice is still something from inside her but i don't know if she needs to know it is an internal voice or external one


Apples and oranges. 

I don't see how it is apples and oranges.  A harmless belief that offers solice does not seem to be a problem to me.


I think you are seriously underestimating the damage done by holding ridiculou and false beliefs.  There is a saying - that which can be destroyed by the truth should be.

There is another saying.  It is the Litany of Gendlin.  The opening part of it is in my sig.
Specifically speaking to JB who is spiritual and not religious, can you suggest what harm is done by her belief in the spirit and a non interventionist god.

Please tell me the harm in my mother becoming more religious as she ages and closes on her eventual demise.  The does not like the idea of simply ceasing to exist.  She takes comfort in the belief that she will continue on and meet those who went before her. Please tell me the harm in that?

 

If someone time traveled into the future and saw that tomorrow I would die, and there was no way around it I would find peace in my ignorance of the fact that death loomed with no way of changing it.



Apples and oranges. 

And you are not one of those atheists who says he prefers the uncomfortable truth to a comforting lie.  You may not believe in gods, but neither are you a rationalist.

So what benefit does it do me knowing that I am about to die in 24 hours lost in the desert.  I would rather keep fighting to survive until I could no longer continue.  What good is served by my giving up because it is pointless to continue, just wallowing in self pity for the last few hours.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:54:16 PM by epidemic »

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2014, 02:59:42 PM »
consciousness is in my opinion the closest thing to resemble the soul,it makes you what you are and when you die it's no more.
Can you prove that when you die it is no more?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2014, 03:03:27 PM »
Does this belief in the world being flat cause them comfort?

That is irrelevant.  I have reality as my priority.  You do not.  I do not know how to convince you just how stupid that is.  It seems entirely self evident to me.  When you allow one stupid, comfortable lie to defeat reality, you permit many.  You end up with a society full of mouth-breathing idiots who make idiotic decisions, detached from reality, based on their comfortable lies. 


The god dillusion, a this point I am on the fence as to whether it is a good thing to convince them that they are wrong, as I still do not see the harm.

Decisions are made based on how people understand reality.  If their understanding is inaccurate, poor decisions will be made.  I know that no one has a perfect model of reality.  But those of us who model personality as a brain function have a superior model than those of us who think it is "spirit".  It answers more questions and allows us to anticipate results more accurately. 

I've seen in the old forum, and other places, where some dumbass xian talked about how a loved one has had a sudden change in personality and they strongly suspected demonic possession.  Those of us with a better model of reality realized it could be a stroke or mental illness and they should get their loved one to a hospital ASAP.

I cannot foresee what kinds of decisions the "spirit" model might yield.  But I really do not think it takes much imagination to come up with a scenario.  Give it a try.


I do not know her except for what she has expressed.  As for demeaning, I am not sure respecting ones expressed feelings is demeaning.

?  JB said "please keep me ignorant"?  I'm afraid I missed that post.

Actually we all have someone to pick us up,

No we don't and that's not the point.

... what does it harm that she does not know from whence the voice came.

Then why did you weigh in on this topic?  If you are content that she stay ignorant in her ridiculous beliefs and have anxiety about changing her mind, why did you even participate?  Remember these words, which you posted just a few hours ago:
Ignorance is bliss.

If that is your position, then why weigh in on anything here?  Because what you are doing is presenting facts that contradict people's comfortable ignorance. 

Specifically speaking to JB who is spiritual and not religious,

I make no distinction.  Spiritual = religious, her protestations not withstanding.  She believes in a god and that makes her religious.  Even if there is a difference, I do not see how it affects anything.

... can you suggest what harm is done by her belief in the spirit and a non interventionist god.

Not the point.  Remember, this began with you being mortified that you may have corrected one of JB's superstitious beliefs with one that more closely refelects reality. The question is not for me "what's the harm", but rather, to you - if you think that is a bad thing, why are you sticking your nose into these conversations?

Rather than ask me what harm, you might ask yourself, does JB's belief that personality is spirit driven really offer any comfort?  If so, is that comfort worth her ignorance?

Please tell me the harm in my mother becoming more religious as she ages and closes on her eventual demise. ... Please tell me the harm in that?

Is she giving more money to religious organizations? Is she spending time in church talking to herself when she could instead be spending it with actual people who actually care about her?  Or doing things she likes to do?  None of that harm is necessarily life threatening (though looking forward to dying and going to heaven might qualify), but I would say those do get in the way of getting the most out of the time she has.

So what benefit does it do me knowing that I am about to die in 24 hours lost in the desert.

I already told you that is not a valid comparison.   

 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2014, 10:21:44 PM »
Interesting conversation.  I can't wait to see where this goes. 

As far as being spiritual not religious it is atheism's only competition.  All other choices are religious.  I think you know you have a formidable opponent.  Not me personally, the concepts atheism vs spiritual not religious.

Exciting!  8)

One more thing it's not as harmful as arrogance.  Arrogance can be fatal.  I'd rather be spiritual than arrogant.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/incompetence/201201/foolish-arrogance

http://www.theladders.com/career-advice/10-ways-tell-confident-arrogant
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:42:27 PM by junebug72 »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #106 on: May 15, 2014, 07:02:34 AM »
JB,  I am not going to keep this too exciting.  Screwtape, I poke my nose in because I like to see how religous people think, there is an element of wanting to convert them to my line of thinking.  I do want people to believe what I believe.  I just have some trepedation/reservations in actually achieving the aformentioned things. 

You find great harm in some peoples ingnorance to irrelevant things.  I find most religious folks in america to not be causing great harm by their beliefs.

As for my mother and her church, I find it annoying, she spends too much time with the people,  however, they are actual friends,  she has acquired 10 or 15 regular friends that help out when she needs them, come to family events including thanksgiving, we know their kids and their parents.  The church has really been from her standpoint quite nice.  I don't know how much she puts in the collection plate but I know my dad would take her out if it was too much.

If she passes and gives all her money to the church, I would be upset from a practical and selfish standpoint but it ain't my money so too bad so sad.

In some ways I would like to believe that I continue on beyond death and sometimes I wish I had not been enlightened.  There is a certain peace in knowing you will be reunited with those who have died and that you will continue.  But alas I do not believe this is the case.

I don't see the harm in believing in god, but I do sit on the fence on the subject.  Were I to convince JB, MM, or even Luk that they were wrong I would have mixed emotion on the subject, at this point I will continue leaning toward what I feel to be truth and continue to inform people of my stance and seek enlightenment on others postions.

Offline junebug72

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2014, 09:42:59 AM »
epidemic conceding the debate and changing my perspective is two different things.   ;)

I don't have any superstitious beliefs to get rid of.  Except; never give a knife to a friend.  It will sever your friendship.  ;)

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2014, 09:51:00 AM »
epidemic conceding the debate and changing my perspective is two different things.   ;)

I don't have any superstitious beliefs to get rid of.  Except; never give a knife to a friend.  It will sever your friendship.  ;)

My parent-in-laws apparently got offended when I gave them scissors. Still can't find a decent pair in that house.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2014, 09:53:22 AM »
  I find most religious folks in america to not be causing great harm by their beliefs.

If you don't count spreading their belief of hell onto people, to whom it causes great trauma.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2014, 10:01:11 AM »
I find most religious folks in america to not be causing great harm by their beliefs.


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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2014, 11:43:21 AM »
One more thing it's not as harmful as arrogance.  Arrogance can be fatal.  I'd rather be spiritual than arrogant.

You say that is what you would prefer, but you forget it's not an either-or choice.  You can be arrogant and spiritual.  Lucky you.  But that's not what we're talking about.  We are talking about ignorance or knowledge. 

Epidemic thinks he should withhold knowledge from you in order to not trespass on your blissful ignorance.  Because heaven forbid you learn something.  I think he's a dope for numerous reasons.  First, for thinking ignorance is bliss in the first place.  Second, for not following his own professed approach and arguing with you at all.  Last, for then regretting it when he thinks he gave you some knowledge.  He's ruined you, obviously.  Who knows how (if?) you will cope now that you suspect personality is strictly a function of the brain? 

I doubt he realizes it, or will acknowledge it hereafter, but he's a promoter of stupid.  Which is shameful.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2014, 12:14:29 PM »
epidemic conceding the debate and changing my perspective is two different things.   ;)

I don't have any superstitious beliefs to get rid of.  Except; never give a knife to a friend.  It will sever your friendship.  ;)

Oh good, I have not damaged your belief system.

Screwtape is angry person. 

Screwtape i think there are more important things we must learn than religion is false.  You can be an effective geologist, biochemical engineer, rocket scientist and still believe in god.  You average rocket scientist does not call on god to calculate force mass or thrust vectoring.  Whether you believe in god or not is about last on the list of qualifications for most careers.

So i am just not going to worry about people being "stupid in this one area of their life." I simply find it irrelevant to the price of rice in china.


Werner Arber (born 1929): Werner Arber is a Swiss microbiologist and geneticist. Along with American researchers Hamilton Smith and Daniel Nathans, Werner Arber shared the 1978 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for the discovery of restriction endonucleases. In 2011, Pope Benedict XVI appointed Arber as President of the Pontifical Academy—the first Protestant to hold that position.[215]

Robert T. Bakker (born 1945): Paleontologist who was a figure in the "dinosaur Renaissance" and known for the theory some dinosaurs were Warm-blooded. He is also a Pentecostal preacher who advocates theistic evolution and has written on religion.[216]

R. J. Berry (born 1934): He is a former president of both the Linnean Society of London and the Christians in Science group. He also wrote God and the Biologist: Personal Exploration of Science and Faith (Apollos 1996) ISBN 0-85111-446-6 H taught at University College London for over 20 years.[217]

Francis Collins (born 1950): He is the current director of the National Institutes of Health and former director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute. He has also written on religious matters in articles and in Faith and the Human Genome he states the importance to him of "the literal and historical Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which is the cornerstone of what I believe." He wrote the book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.[218]

Darrel R. Falk (born 1946): Darrel Falk is an American biologist and the former president of the BioLogos Foundation.[219]

Charles Foster (born 1962): Charles Foster is a science writer on natural history, evolutionary biology, and theology. A Fellow of Green Templeton College, Oxford, the Royal Geographical Society, and the Linnean Society of London,[220] Foster has advocated theistic evolution in his book, The Selfless Gene (2009).[221]

John Gurdon (born 1933): Sir John Bertrand Gurdon is a British developmental biologist. In 2012, he and Shinya Yamanaka were awarded the Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for the discovery that mature cells can be converted to stem cells. In an interview with EWTN.com on the subject of working with the Vatican in dialogue, he says "I'm not a Roman Catholic. I'm a Christian, of the Church of England...I've never seen the Vatican before, so that's a new experience, and I'm grateful for it."[222]

William B. Hurlbut (born 194?): William Hurlbut is a physician and Consulting Professor at the Stanford Neuroscience Institute, Stanford University Medical Center. In addition to teaching at Stanford, Hurlbut served for eight years on the President's Council on Bioethics and is nationally known for his advocacy of Altered Nuclear Transfer (ANT).[223]

Brian Kobilka (born 1955): He is an American Nobel Prize winner of Chemistry in 2012, and is professor in the departments of Molecular and Cellular Physiology at Stanford University School of Medicine. Kobilka attends the Catholic Community at Stanford, Calif.[224]

Denis Lamoureux (born 1954): Denis Lamoureux is an evolutionary creationist and holds a professorial chair of science and religion at St. Joseph's College at the University of Alberta, Canada—the first of its kind in Canada, and with Phillip E. Johnson, Lamoureux co-authored Darwinism Defeated? The Johnson-Lamoureux Debate on Biological Origins (1999). Lamoureux has also written Evolutionary Creation: A Christian Approach to Evolution (2008).[225]

Noella Marcellino (born 1951): American Benedictine nun with a degree in microbiology. Her field of interests include fungi and the effects of decay and putrefaction.[226]

Alister McGrath (born 1953): Prolific Anglican theologian who has written on the relationship between science and theology in A Scientific Theology. McGrath holds two doctorates from the University of Oxford, a DPhil in Molecular Biophysics and a Doctor of Divinity in Theology. He has responded to the new atheists in several books, i.e. The Dawkins Delusion?. As of early 2014, McGrath will be the New Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at Oxford.[227]

Kenneth R. Miller (born 1948): Biology professor at Brown University who wrote Finding Darwin's God ISBN 0-06-093049-7.[228]

Simon C. Morris (born 1951): British paleontologist who made his reputation through study of the Burgess Shale fossils. He was the co-winner of a Charles Doolittle Walcott Medal and also won a Lyell Medal. He is active in the Faraday Institute for study of science and religion and is also noted on discussions concerning the idea of theistic evolution.[229]


William Newsome (born 19??): Bill Newsome is a neuroscientist at Stanford University. A member of the National Academy of Sciences, Newsome is the co-chair of the BRAIN Initiative, "a rapid planning effort for a ten-year assault on how the brain works."[230] Newsome is also a Christian and has written about his faith: "When I discuss religion with my fellow scientists...I realize I am an oddity — a serious Christian and a respected scientist."[231]

Martin Nowak (born 1965): Evolutionary biologist and mathematician best known for evolutionary dynamics. He teaches at Harvard University, which is pictured in an old drawing.[232]

Ghillean Prance (born 1937): Noted botanist involved in the Eden Project. He is also the current President of Christians in Science.[233]

Joan Roughgarden (born 1946): An evolutionary biologist who has taught at Stanford University since 1972. She wrote the book Evolution and Christian Faith: Reflections of an Evolutionary Biologist.[234]

Mary Higby Schweitzer (born 19??): paleontologist at North Carolina State University who believes strongly in the synergy of the Christian faith and the truth of empirical science.[235][236]

I just don't think in any practical manner being religous is seriously harmful.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 12:22:20 PM by epidemic »

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2014, 12:48:36 PM »
I just don't think in any practical manner being religous is seriously harmful.

That's because you are observing a world where people resist religion. It's like any cause. It's like saying that enough has been done to help the environment, so Greens should get a real job.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2014, 06:48:39 PM »
Atheism is not a belief.
Who teaches it?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Defiance

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Re: What is the soul?
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2014, 07:20:16 AM »
Atheism is not a belief.
Who teaches it?
There is no single authority that "teaches" it.

It is a simple position that lacks belief in gods.

Who teaches the lack of belief in leprauchans?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.