Author Topic: DTE vs Isaiah 45  (Read 213 times)

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Offline screwtape

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DTE vs Isaiah 45
« on: May 08, 2014, 03:36:38 PM »
In one thread in the old forum, DTE was kicking the asses of 3 or 4 xians at once with his SPAG challenge.  In the midst of it all, a xian named bsdman suggested DTE was wrong about Isaiah 45:7 saying yhwh created good and evil.  He used the common apologetic that the word was not "evil" it was "woe" or "calamity" or "darkness". 

I found his response.  Here it is for posterity:


Isaiah 45:7 “evil” vs “woe”
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4871.msg79324#msg79324

I'm not going to allow my thread to be hijacked by bsdman, but since he implied I ducked him elsewhere and injected a verse that he disregards (viz a viz point 1), I'm going to address God's creation of evil as testified by his prophet.
Quote
Seriously - I already addresed DTE earlier error in quoting Isaiah 45:7 - he quoted the word "evil", which should have been "woe" and/or "darkness".  Huge difference.  He already may have an errant view of Christianity if he thinks God created evil.

Um... no, I don't. First of all, I was quoting the KJV bible, so your (errant) beef is with those men, not with me. However...

The word translated evil in Isaiah 45:7 is ra'. You might recognize it better from Genesis 2:9: "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

Same word. Do you submit to me that it should be the tree of good and woe?

How about Genesis 6:5, when God was sorry for having made the world and decided to destroy it by flood:

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Same word. Do you submit to me that it should be "thoughts of his heart was only woe continually?"

How about Genesis 13:13, discussing the sodomites whom God destroyed by fire - "But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly."

Same word. Do you submit that it should be "the men of Sodom were woeful and sinners?"

What about create? Well, that's the word bara', which always has God as it's subject. So not only did God create ra', God bara' ra'. He created evil, in only the way God can create.

Here are some bible examples:

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "

Same word.

Genesis 5:1 - "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; "

Amos 4:13 - "For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name."

Same word.

God creates evil, because only he can create it.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: DTE vs Isaiah 45
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2014, 04:54:54 PM »
http://www.2001translation.com/Isaiah.htm#_Evil

There's a counter-argument to DTE's break down of Isaiah that uses the Septuagent as opposed to the Masoretic Text making DTE's claim that "The word translated evil in Isaiah 45:7 is ra'" into a non-factor. Biblical loopholes...................

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Re: DTE vs Isaiah 45
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 05:27:52 PM »
OP,

That link takes me to "Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /forum/index.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Apache Server at whywontgodhealamputees.com Port 80"

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Offline penfold

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Re: DTE vs Isaiah 45
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 01:57:07 AM »
In one thread in the old forum, DTE was kicking the asses of 3 or 4 xians at once with his SPAG challenge.  In the midst of it all, a xian named bsdman suggested DTE was wrong about Isaiah 45:7 saying yhwh created good and evil.  He used the common apologetic that the word was not "evil" it was "woe" or "calamity" or "darkness". 

I found his response. 
[...]

Lovely piece of textual analysis.

Interestingly some early Christians (Polycarp, Irenaeus[1]) and even some modern theologias (John Hick[2]) held the view that God deliberately created evil; they saw evil as a mechanism of salvation - essentially arguing that without evil we do not have the capacity to be good.

DTE's analysis would also have made sense to various gnostic groups within Christianity who saw YHWH as a flase blind creator god and creation as inherently bad. (eg Secret Book of John[3])

It is only those Christians who (a) follow the theodicy of Augustine and (b) are biblical literalists who would really have a problem with DTE (and if there ever was a sub-set of Christianity worth ignoring...)
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
 2. http://www.iep.utm.edu/hick/#SH3a
 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphon_of_John
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Offline screwtape

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Re: DTE vs Isaiah 45
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2014, 08:38:44 AM »
That link takes me to "Forbidden

Yes.  That link goes to his post on the old forum, which is inaccessible.  I included it on the off chance that the database was not deleted by Marshall Brain and it will be restored some day.  I'm an optimist.


http://www.2001translation.com/Isaiah.htm#_Evil

From your link, third sentence:
Quote
But, let's see what the verse actually says in Greek:

It was not originally written in Greek.  It was originally hebrew.  It is like debating the meaning of a phrase in the Three Musketeers (originally written in French) and saying "Let's see what it actually says in Greek".  WTF?  No. 

So, the Greek would be an intermediate translation. If you want a good translation of another language you do not first translate it into another language and then the one you want.  Something is lost in every translation, so more is lost in two translations than one, making it less accurate.

This link was written assuming the reader is an uninformed dupe. Using the Septuagent might give you an understanding of what some xians thought about it, but not how Isaiah or the later editors intended.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: DTE vs Isaiah 45
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2014, 09:46:15 AM »
1) There's not a definitive Septuagint
2) There's not a definitive Hebrew text
3) There's not a definitive sect that has the definitive texts
4) I would prefer Qumran fragments over Masoretic, but Masoretic will do.
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