Author Topic: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?  (Read 2828 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2014, 05:52:31 AM »
Back to the beginning of this thread, it just occurred to me; what are the first two words of "the Lord's prayer"?

Our Father...

Good point Star Stuff.    Except it doesn't apply to me.  I don't see the big deal in calling God mother or father.

I will say this.  I can understand why you have this POV.  I just don't think that's all there is to it; belief that is.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2014, 06:01:29 AM »
JB you often state that in some way people are being arrogant or some other victimising you. an appesl to emotion? an evasion to control the line of questioning. nobody dislikes you so can you please the accusations pertaining to your xtian persecution complex out of it for the sake of the flow of the discussion ...please.


further you talk about god as a function of perception, so god has no independent existence outside of individual perception?
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2014, 06:31:21 AM »
JB you often state that in some way people are being arrogant or some other victimising you. an appesl to emotion? an evasion to control the line of questioning. nobody dislikes you so can you please the accusations pertaining to your xtian persecution complex out of it for the sake of the flow of the discussion ...please.


further you talk about god as a function of perception, so god has no independent existence outside of individual perception?

Being arrogant doesn't victimize me.  It hurts the arrogant one. 

I have never avoided questions eh!.  I only bring it up because of the posit claim here at WWGHA that god is not necessary for moral behavior.  I don't think arrogance is moral. 

I believe God exists outside of perception. 

 
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2014, 06:40:26 AM »
God is necessary for moral behaviour??


so god is an objective object/being/thing??

arrogance is immoral?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:42:44 AM by eh! »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #91 on: May 16, 2014, 06:49:30 AM »
You would have to recreate the Big Bang.   

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable.  Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable.   I just read it again and I feel the term still fits.  Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly.  Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
For example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

And do you honestly think that that is in any way useful?  In principle, almost every statement we could care to make COULD be falsified - indeed, I struggle to think of a statement that could NOT be deemed as "potentially falsifiable". 

Example: "your god is dead.  I killed him in my kitchen.  Any comfort or messages you think you are getting from him in future are merely echoes resounding back and forth through time."  Exactly as falsifiable as your "god was created in the Big Bang".....but do we gain anything from calling it "falsifiable"?  Not really.

As the wiki article notes, there are two definitions of falsifiable, as Popper notes.  The "potentially fasifiable" (which covers practically everything, and thus has little or no use), and the "testably falsifiable" (or "falsifiable in practice"), which IS useful.  Basically, if it is possible to define a way in which a proposition can be falsified using current methods or technology, then it is testably falsifiable - and thus both a useful and honest description to use with a proposition or hypothesis.

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it.  In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim;  god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #92 on: May 16, 2014, 07:01:10 AM »
God is necessary for moral behaviour??


so god is an objective object/being/thing??

arrogance is immoral?

You tell me.  It seems even the nicest atheist is arrogant,even the ones who can't spell.  I can be arrogant  but I work on it because it always makes me feel guilty.  I know I'm doing something wrong.  So yes I believe it is amoral.

I believe God is objective, yes I do.  I do not know about being a biological being, maybe, maybe not. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #93 on: May 16, 2014, 07:04:49 AM »
To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it.  In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim;  god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?

Nope.  All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not).  Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle.  Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #94 on: May 16, 2014, 07:12:06 AM »
What comparative level would you equate arrogance to on the immoral scale??

did i read you right, god is necessary for their to be morals??


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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #95 on: May 16, 2014, 07:15:13 AM »
To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it.  In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

Okay if that's so then how do you falsify that claim;  god is dead, died in my kitchen, any comfort or messages you are getting from the future are merely resounding back and forth through time.

Wouldn't you first have to prove God exists?

Nope.  All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not).  Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle.  Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there.  Good luck on that one.  You would have to show that God is mortal.  There is to me no similarities in our statements. 

How would it be possible for you to kill God in your kitchen?

I have logic on my side here.  I have physical evidence of what happens when things are condensed.   That is the logic behind the hypothesis.

There is no logic to your statement.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:21:10 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2014, 07:19:48 AM »
What comparative level would you equate arrogance to on the immoral scale??

did i read you right, god is necessary for their to be morals??

On a scale from 1-10 I will give arrogance a 6.5.  :D


I'm undecided. :-\     
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2014, 07:28:51 AM »
Just for a reference where would you put genocide, 10 presumably? What about finding a purse with $50 in it and spending the money?

are you avoiding the question, we need god in order for morals to exist?,
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2014, 07:31:42 AM »
Just for a reference where would you put genocide, 10 presumably? What about finding a purse with $50 in it and spending the money?

are you avoiding the question, we need god in order for morals to exist?,

I would put genocide at 20.  Off the charts.  I would put spending the money at a 7.5.

I answered your question.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #99 on: May 16, 2014, 07:38:46 AM »
20, what's the highest number?

I missed your answer we can't have morals without god, YES OR NO.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2014, 07:58:51 AM »
All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not).  Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle.  Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there.  Good luck on that one.  You would have to show that God is mortal.  There is to me no similarities in our statements. 

So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable? 

I have logic on my side here. 
So?
I have physical evidence of what happens when things are condensed.   
So?
That is the logic behind the hypothesis.
So?

You said that your god was created in the Big Bang.  You said that this was falsifiable, because "all" we needed to do was recreate the Big Bang.  What has logic got to do with any of that?

Likewise, I said that I killed your god in my kitchen.  I said it is fasifiable, because "all" you need to do was create those circumstances.  What has logic got to do with any of that?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2014, 08:01:58 AM »
Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that. Is it possible to not have a disco era this time, that shit was wack. oh and no fuking mosquitoes this time...pesky little fukers, carry malaria. too.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 08:05:35 AM by eh! »
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2014, 08:03:19 AM »
Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that.

Still not falsifiable because the god in this new universe will still be invisible.

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2014, 08:07:13 AM »
We could just use a brightly colored. dye on him, glow in the dark stuff.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2014, 08:10:45 AM »
20, what's the highest number?

I missed your answer we can't have morals without god, YES OR NO.

20.

I can't believe you missed my answer.  It's right there.  How can I answer yes or no if I am undecided? 

I said I am capable of arrogance, I am a theist.  I have encountered many theists that are arrogant.  The most humble folks I know are theists.

Just to make you happy...NO.

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2014, 08:15:55 AM »
Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that.

Still not falsifiable because the god in this new universe will still be invisible.

I can't see you either.  You're not invisible. ;)   
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2014, 08:19:53 AM »
All you need to do to falsify my claim is recreate the exact circumstances that existed in my kitchen on that date, and you will see me kill your god (or not).  Its no more, nor less, falsifiable that saying "god was created in the Big Bang - you'll have to replicate the Big Bang to falsify my claim".

Entirely falsifiable in principle.  Just an utterly, utterly pointless claim to make, since there is no way in practice to prove what is in principle , falsifiable.

To do that you would have to have God there.  Good luck on that one.  You would have to show that God is mortal.  There is to me no similarities in our statements. 

So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable? 

I have logic on my side here. 
So?
I have physical evidence of what happens when things are condensed.   
So?
That is the logic behind the hypothesis.
So?

You said that your god was created in the Big Bang.  You said that this was falsifiable, because "all" we needed to do was recreate the Big Bang.  What has logic got to do with any of that?

Likewise, I said that I killed your god in my kitchen.  I said it is fasifiable, because "all" you need to do was create those circumstances.  What has logic got to do with any of that?

Are you calling your statement a hypothesis?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2014, 08:25:43 AM »
So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 08:28:50 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2014, 08:26:13 AM »
Yeah just go and create the big bang and start another universe.... easy, no prob, simple as that.

Still not falsifiable because the god in this new universe will still be invisible.

I can't see you either.  You're not invisible. ;)

Well I respond to you in a way that everyone can see.

If we both had the time and inclination we could arrange a meeting.

I could send you pictures, videos, and a list of people who presently know me.

God is invisible and undetectable, I can not arrange a meeting, and I can only ask people who have never met the guy what they think of him because he is undetectable to them as well except for feelings they attribute to him.  I think those feelings are manifestations of the mind body not a measure of his existence.  I cite as my proof that every religion from aztec to egypt, from islam to Christianity,from hindi to spiritualist, all claim to have feelings where god made his presense known through subtle cues that could be anything from the ID, caffiene or a bad piece of fish.

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2014, 08:32:13 AM »
So morals can't exist without god, genocide is highest on the scale of immorality and god commits genocide therefore god is the most immoral being that exists according to you?
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2014, 08:52:43 AM »
JB have you come to the realisation that by your own admission and own standards the god you worship is the most evil immoral thing you yourself. can think of.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2014, 09:07:14 AM »
JB have you come to the realisation that by your own admission and own standards the god you worship is the most evil immoral thing you yourself. can think of.

Not to be too forward, but I think she has answered that.  She does not attribute the bible to god.  She thinks the old testament is false and I think she does believe the NT is wrong as well.  She is spiritual, where she chooses to believe that god is an entity who helps people mostly on a psychological basis.  Giving them the strength to overcome an obstacle or deal with a bad situation.

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2014, 09:14:44 AM »
^  oh, ok then...my bad.


why the fuk she go around tellin everyone she a xtian..... talk about a waste of time.


JB, I'm done with you. you misled me.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2014, 11:13:13 AM »
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it.  Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV.  I'm not saying God doesn't exist.  I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight.  Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment.  I'm not religious.  I detest religion.  I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception.  I can't NOT be gay.  Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent.  I think this is why many Christians become atheist.

Contempt?

What makes you think I don't understand your point of view?

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2014, 01:57:50 PM »
^  oh, ok then...my bad.


why the fuk she go around tellin everyone she a xtian..... talk about a waste of time.


JB, I'm done with you. you misled me.

eh! I haven't misled you.  I read the question wrong.

I think all humans are capable of morality.  I forget you are new to the site.  I have said this many times.

I will fight until I'm blue in the face to prove I am not a xtian.  I am not religious.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2014, 02:00:41 PM »
So to be clear: are you stating that my assertion is NOT potentially falsifiable?

I need the answer to the question to answer your question. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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