RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?

[junebug72]

In your example of god being created by the big bang, then random chaos was able to create the ultimate order in your god.

Why would it not be possible that the laws of physics are as they are because that is how they are because of nature?

Perhaps our universe is not all that well ordered.  We only perceive it as ordered because we live in it with the laws we have been dealt.  Perhaps there are far more ordered univeses.

Picture you live in a house with a messy family you take laundry strewn around the house and drop it off by the laundry and you think man my house is neat now. Then you visit your aunt who is not quite as messy and you think to yourself... Wow she is so organized and neat, she puts her laundry in a basket rather than strewn around the whole house or in a pile.  Now you visit your grandmother house and she orgainzes here clothes by fabric type, color special washing considerations and every tuesday like clockwork she does her laundry.

Are the laws of physics the product of a superbeing created by a universe with out physics?

I did not say that it's not possible.  I don't know why you asked me that.

I do not perceive the universe as well ordered.  Not at all.

I'm sorry epidemic I missed the moral to that story.

No I don't think so.

[Defiance]

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

[Star Stuff]

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

As Carl Sagan said:

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. 

[junebug72]

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

I never said must.  I said I couldn't do it.  Maybe someone else can.  You are right though it has never been to done to my knowledge.

Except I do get comfort from God.  You are right about it being provable.  That's why nobody should be upset with an atheist.

I guess from the comfort I have received when I have asked. 

[Anfauglir]

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.
.....
It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone.  

I know it's a vague answer but I can't.  I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim. 

[junebug72]

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.
.....
It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone.  

I know it's a vague answer but I can't.  I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim.

Thanks for the challenge Anfauglir. 

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.  That may be dangerous if it really did create god/gods.  If it's not just right there ain't no telling what one might create or destroy. 

Please tell me I'm close.  I strained a brain muscle with that one. 

[Bluecolour]

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

I never said must.  I said I couldn't do it.  Maybe someone else can.  You are right though it has never been to done to my knowledge.

Except I do get comfort from God.  You are right about it being provable.  That's why nobody should be upset with an atheist.

I guess from the comfort I have received when I have asked.

Junebug, you cannot prove god exists. However, you claim to be aware, even sure of his existence because of the much needed comfort and love that he has given you throughout your life. True/False

Let me ask you this.
Even if everyone has their own subjective view of god depending on who they are.
Even if a person had lived a bad life and done terrible things in the past.
Even if that person didn't fully understand who god was or what he was like.
If that person truly believed in his heart that god was loving and forgiving and that person cried out to god while they were suffering or in pain, wouldn't god also comfort that person. Would he show that person love the way he has shown you love and comforted you on so many occasions?

I really want to know.

[Bluecolour]

I have a question or two.  Why do you read my posts if they bother you so much?  How long have you been reading here?

I read your posts for the same reason I read most things: I am seeking for knowledge, for the truth and for pleasurable distractions.

[junebug72]

So a being that by definition must exist in space...is unable to be empirically detected?

I think you might have a look at what the properties of existence are.

Your god shows no signs, none provable, he doesn't live next to me, none provable, and he doesn't have a hand in anything, none provable.

If he appears so withdrawn, how do you distinguish it from being non existent?

I never said must.  I said I couldn't do it.  Maybe someone else can.  You are right though it has never been to done to my knowledge.

Except I do get comfort from God.  You are right about it being provable.  That's why nobody should be upset with an atheist.

I guess from the comfort I have received when I have asked.

Junebug, you cannot prove god exists. However, you claim to be aware, even sure of his existence because of the much needed comfort and love that he has given you throughout your life. True/False

Let me ask you this.
Even if everyone has their own subjective view of god depending on who they are.
Even if a person had lived a bad life and done terrible things in the past.
Even if that person didn't fully understand who god was or what he was like.
If that person truly believed in his heart that god was loving and forgiving and that person cried out to god while they were suffering or in pain, wouldn't god also comfort that person. Would he show that person love the way he has shown you love and comforted you on so many occasions?

I really want to know.

Yes I believe God would and that's got a lot to do with why I see no need for religion, bibles or Korans.  Religion is "conditional" love.  That's why I think people get so confused and lose faith, they can not live up to the expectations.  I think they get confused when God does not help the physical body with God not caring.  I never once prayed for god/gods to heal my cancer.  I asked for comfort.  I didn't even get down on my knees. 

I will go so far to say that you don't even need to believe to get comfort if you ask.  Again not the physical; the spirit.    I also think that for those who can not ask it is given abundantly, I do hope so.

I would like to say that my beliefs are not spur of the moment thoughts.  They are part of a lifelong journey.

Sorry it took so long I was gardening.

Yes it is true.  About forgot to answer.

[junebug72]

I have a question or two.  Why do you read my posts if they bother you so much?  How long have you been reading here?

I read your posts for the same reason I read most things: I am seeking for knowledge, for the truth and for pleasurable distractions.

I wouldn't read my posts for that.    I am flattered though.

[Bluecolour]

Junebug here's the problem. If god exists and he is willing and able to give comfort to those in need regardless of what they believe. If according to you we can be sure of receiving comfort from him, then why is it that even when there are so many people around the world praying for this spiritual/emotional comfort, so many of them are left empty.
Think of all the despair there is in this world, all the grief. Count all the cases of suicide, self mutilations, all the people who have gone insane under the pressure.
If you don't believe god will heal amputees, why doesn't he at least comfort them. And if he does comfort some, then why not the others.

This quote comes from C.S Lewis. His wife had just died and he had gone to god looking for comfort.

..where is God? This is one of the most disquieting symptoms. When you are happy, so happy that you have no sense of needing Him, so happy that you are tempted to feel His claims upon you as an interruption, if you remember yourself and turn to Him with gratitude and praise, you will be—or so it feels—welcomed with open arms. But go to Him when your need is desperate, when all other help is vain, and what do you find? A door slammed in your face, and a sound of bolting and double bolting on the inside. After that, silence. You may as well turn away. The longer you wait, the more emphatic the silence will become. There are no lights in the windows. It might be an empty house. Was it ever inhabited? It seemed so once. And that seeming was as strong as this. What can this mean? Why is He so present a commander in our time of prosperity and so very absent a help in time of trouble?

Junebug, I ask on behalf of all those who are continually praying to god for comfort yet remain empty.
Why does he answer others and not us? Why would he show you love and deny us?
Can he still hear us?
Do we need to pray harder?
Have we done something wrong?
Is it possible that god just doesn't love everybody the way he loves you?

You see Junebug, the people who wrote the bible, the Koran and the other holy books did so because they felt abandoned by god. They became afraid they had done something wrong and tried to make up for it. Many of the people who follow these religions feel the same way.

Junebug, since we know that god loves you, can you please pray to him for us? Pray to him and ask him why he let's us feel that we are not worthy of his love.

[junebug72]

Junebug, I ask on behalf of all those who are continually praying to god for comfort yet remain empty.
Why does he answer others and not us?

If you mean praying for miracles that may be why.  I have never had a prayer like that answered either.  I don't even really pray. 

Why would he show you love and deny us?

I don't believe God does that.  Again I think your asking for a supernatural healing.  Not spiritual comfort.  I have had much suffering in my life so I am not special.  I just don't blame God for it.

Can he still hear us?
Do we need to pray harder?
Have we done something wrong?

I believe God does hear.
Do you know the Serenity Prayer?


Just keep saying this right here and you might feel better.

Is it possible that god just doesn't love everybody the way he loves you?

No.  I sure do hope not.  I wouldn't love God then.  I sure wouldn't. 

You see Junebug, the people who wrote the bible, the Koran and the other holy books did so because they felt abandoned by god. They became afraid they had done something wrong and tried to make up for it. Many of the people who follow these religions feel the same way.

No I don't see that.  I see people that witnessed God parting seas, freeing slaves, plaguing Egypt and destroying things with floods, fire and brimstone.  I don't think book writing brings God around.  I just don't.  The bible was written out of fear, ego and greed.  It would be hard to persuade me otherwise.  I've read it.

Junebug, since we know that god loves you, can you please pray to him for us? Pray to him and ask him why he let's us feel that we are not worthy of his love.

I don't "know" that.  I believe it.  There is a big difference.  I think the key here is how I perceive God.  I think that's why you think some are denied while others are not.   So many prayers are wasted on stupid shit like football games or wealth.   

I don't think God saves us from suffering because WE can end it.  We together as a species can stop the suffering.  Whatever it takes to get people on board with that is what I'm willing to do.

God does not allow you to feel this way, you do,  with your perception of God. 

That's my POV.  I hope it lightens up your soul.

[Anfauglir]

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.
.....
It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone.  

I know it's a vague answer but I can't.  I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim.

Thanks for the challenge Anfauglir. 

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.   

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable.  Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

[Bluecolour]

Junebug, correct me if I'm wrong.

You say when you pray to god for comfort (not for miracles) but specifically for a spiritual/emotional comfort you receive it.

Then I asked why god doesn't seem to answer everyone that asks for this spiritual/emotional comfort (not for miracles or healings) but specifically and only for that spiritual/emotional comfort.

You say that the way that I and others perceive god might be the problem. Our wrong perception of god is what makes us feel like he has abandoned us. He hasn't.
But you have a different perception of god than we do. You don't 'know' that god loves you, you 'believe' that he loves you. And this trust in gods love allows you to receive comfort (spiritual/emotive only) from him.

Am I right in understanding you so far.

[junebug72]

Junebug, correct me if I'm wrong.

You say when you pray to god for comfort (not for miracles) but specifically for a spiritual/emotional comfort you receive it.

Then I asked why god doesn't seem to answer everyone that asks for this spiritual/emotional comfort (not for miracles or healings) but specifically and only for that spiritual/emotional comfort.

You say that the way that I and others perceive god might be the problem. Our wrong perception of god is what makes us feel like he has abandoned us. He hasn't.
But you have a different perception of god than we do. You don't 'know' that god loves you, you 'believe' that he loves you. And this trust in gods love allows you to receive comfort (spiritual/emotive only) from him.

Am I right in understanding you so far.

Yes Blue I honestly believe it is the difference in our perceptions.  That's why I am so against religions.  I think they are terrible perceptions of God.

I perceive the only kind of God that I can look up to and respect.   I don't know if God is a tangible being but I do know that God is a useful concept if perceived in the right way.

I wasn't sure if by comfort you meant physical comfort or spiritual comfort.  I have never received physical comfort from God.

From my heart to yours,

JB

[junebug72]

I'm not sure but I have this hypothesis that God was created in the Big Bang.
.....
It's a falsifiable claim.

In what way?

I can not do it alone.  

I know it's a vague answer but I can't.  I have limited resources.

If you mean "I know how it could be falsified, but I personally do not have the ability/equipment to do so", then fine - but you will need to explain exactly what criteria WOULD falsify the claim.

But if you mean "I do not know how it can be falsified", then - with respect - you cannot baldy state it is a falsifiable claim.

Thanks for the challenge Anfauglir. 

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.   

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable.  Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable.   I just read it again and I feel the term still fits.  Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly.  Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
For example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

[Bluecolour]

Thank you JB I think I'm really starting to understand what you're saying.

It's because other people have wrong perceptions of god (that is they believe the wrong things about him) that is why they don't receive comfort from him when they pray. If I believe the right things about god then I will be able to truly admire him and receive his love and his comfort.

So if I have a biblical perception of god, that is if I believe in the god of Moses, Abraham, Mohammad or any of the worlds religions it will bring me only darkness. I need to have the right perception of god. The one that you have. Then I will have light, peace and comfort.

I'm sorry to say this but a lot of the things I believe about god are based on the christian religion. If it's not to much to ask, could you write me a list of the things I need to believe so that I can more properly receive gods love and comfort.

[junebug72]

Thank you JB I think I'm really starting to understand what you're saying.

It's because other people have wrong perceptions of god (that is they believe the wrong things about him) that is why they don't receive comfort from him when they pray. If I believe the right things about god then I will be able to truly admire him and receive his love and his comfort.

So if I have a biblical perception of god, that is if I believe in the god of Moses, Abraham, Mohammad or any of the worlds religions it will bring me only darkness. I need to have the right perception of god. The one that you have. Then I will have light, peace and comfort.

I'm sorry to say this but a lot of the things I believe about god are based on the christian religion. If it's not to much to ask, could you write me a list of the things I need to believe so that I can more properly receive gods love and comfort.

I did not receive a list Blue.  I wish it was that easy. 

This has helped me more than anything.  I use my own love to measure God's believing all the while that God's love is much much more beautiful, passionate, powerful, forgiving and unconditional than mine. 

Like I said before remember that serenity prayer.  It really helps me through times of sorrow. 

I hope this helps.

All my love,

JB

[Bluecolour]

What does your love have to do with god?

[junebug72]

What does your love have to do with god?

Did you read the post? 

[Bluecolour]

Yes. What I mean is this.

If you can use your love to measure gods love, then you can use your joy to measure gods joy and you can use your kindness to measure gods kindness.
Also you can use your anger to measure gods anger, your hate to measure gods hate, and your pride to measure gods pride.

[junebug72]

Yes. What I mean is this.

If you can use your love to measure gods love, then you can use your joy to measure gods joy and you can use your kindness to measure gods kindness.
Also you can use your anger to measure gods anger, your hate to measure gods hate, and your pride to measure gods pride.

Exactly!

Sorry it took so long.  My son had to use the computer.

[junebug72]

Let me explain how I come up with this perception.

I don't think there is irrefutable evidence that God exists. 

Therefore how you define god is up to you.  It is a reflection of you. 

I am not saying you are God.  I am saying that in the silence and absence of sight it is you that defines God. That's my POV.

[Bluecolour]

So god is infinitely and unconditionally loving.
But at the same time he is infinitely and unconditionally hateful.

So god loves each and everyone of us more than we can imagine.
But at the same time he hates each and every one of us beyond our comprehension.

He infinitely has all feelings towards us.
Meaning he is ultimately indifferent.

He doesn't love us by choice.
He is mindless.
A cosmic mirror reflecting back only what we throw at him.
We can see him, but he is blind. He cannot see us.
(We have our perceptions of him but he has no opinion on us)

Meaning he is ethical neutral.
He has not spoken on human matters. He has no commands.
He does not judge or seek justice. He will neither punish nor save. Make or destroy. Move or be moved.

He is no power at all.
We look at him and see our own faces reflected back at us again and again, back and forth infinitely.
We assume he is greater than us.
But we are not made in his image, he is made in ours.
The shadow of our radiance. The ripples of our existential struggle.
The key difference between us and god is that we are alive.

[junebug72]

^^way off^^way off^^way off^^

I specifically said You are NOT God.  Specifically. 

I am saying your perception of God defines you not God.  I don't believe there is a definition of god.

[Bluecolour]

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

[Star Stuff]

Back to the beginning of this thread, it just occurred to me; what are the first two words of "the Lord's prayer"?

[Anfauglir]

You would have to recreate the Big Bang.   

Then your claim is NOT falsifiable.  Not a major problem, I was hoping it would be, but you shouldn't describe it as such if it isn't.

Then I don't understand the definition of falsifiable.   I just read it again and I feel the term still fits.  Please explain more why it can not be falsifiable to this naive hillbilly.  Thanks.

I think it is falsifiable in principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
For example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

And do you honestly think that that is in any way useful?  In principle, almost every statement we could care to make COULD be falsified - indeed, I struggle to think of a statement that could NOT be deemed as "potentially falsifiable". 

Example: "your god is dead.  I killed him in my kitchen.  Any comfort or messages you think you are getting from him in future are merely echoes resounding back and forth through time."  Exactly as falsifiable as your "god was created in the Big Bang".....but do we gain anything from calling it "falsifiable"?  Not really.

As the wiki article notes, there are two definitions of falsifiable, as Popper notes.  The "potentially fasifiable" (which covers practically everything, and thus has little or no use), and the "testably falsifiable" (or "falsifiable in practice"), which IS useful.  Basically, if it is possible to define a way in which a proposition can be falsified using current methods or technology, then it is testably falsifiable - and thus both a useful and honest description to use with a proposition or hypothesis.

To refer all this back to your original proposition: when someone puts a hypothesis out there, and proclaims "this is falsifiable!", the usual supposition is that there is a practical way of actually falsifying it.  In a way, equivalent to the prize fighter shouting "ten bucks to the man who can last three minutes with me" - somewhere between a challenge to those who might disagree, and a promise that there is at least a chance that the claim could be disproved (and that the hypothesis would be altered as a result).

[junebug72]

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it.  Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV.  I'm not saying God doesn't exist.  I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight.  Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment.  I'm not religious.  I detest religion.  I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception.  I can't NOT be gay.  Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent.  I think this is why many Christians become atheist.