Author Topic: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?  (Read 2237 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about a God that actually existed.

If your perception of god determines you. Then who determines your perception of god?

You are still not getting it.  Maybe if you put your contempt for me aside you would understand my POV.  I'm not saying God doesn't exist.  I'm saying if God exists God is silent and absent from sight.  Whatever you think God is, is on you.

I determine my perceptions from my environment.  I'm not religious.  I detest religion.  I learned this lesson because I was rejected from Christianity and was forced to either not believe or change my perception.  I can't NOT be gay.  Maybe God did help by being absent from my sight and silent.  I think this is why many Christians become atheist.

Contempt?

What makes you think I don't understand your point of view?

Because you have yet to say OH I get it.  Not that I am right just that you understand my logic.  Because your interpretation of my post was way off.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2014, 02:58:36 PM »
So then, is God a perception only (meaning real to only you), or is he really a real thing in Space Time?

If you pick the latter, evidence, please.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline eh!

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2014, 03:26:06 PM »
^ keep up JB's god is an object real non-biological entity that she perceives on a personal only level.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2014, 05:21:29 AM »
So then, is God a perception only (meaning real to only you), or is he really a real thing in Space Time?

If you pick the latter, evidence, please.

I think we will all find out one day.  I'm not sure what God is.  I have never met God personally.  Nobody has I don't think. 

That's no different than me asking you what happened before the big bang.  Or to demonstrate a human evolving from an ape.  You have not witnessed these events but you believe them because it makes sense to you.  It makes sense to me there was intelligence involved.  Why?

Because life is so complex.  I have not had an answer that was good enough to reject belief.  The only explanation the big bang gives us is LUCK. 


See my biggest problem with evolution w/o God is if we have beings evolving there ain't no telling what we might become.  It would be real helpful if we could evolve immunity from hunger to get our fuel directly from the sun and atmosphere.  We could become Xmen!!!  :laugh:

I sure hope you get my point.  I'm not just being stubborn.  I have always been told there is no stupid questions.  ;)

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Offline eh!

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2014, 05:55:54 AM »
Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2014, 06:24:58 AM »
Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

If anything can happen God can happen. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2014, 06:31:01 AM »
Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

If anything can happen God can happen. 

That's not what he said. He said "anything that can happen will happen". Gods are impossible.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2014, 07:26:09 AM »
Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

If anything can happen God can happen. 

That's not what he said. He said "anything that can happen will happen". Gods are impossible.

That is what he said.  You added a sentence. ;)  You do not know that God/s are impossible.  I do not know that they are.   I am humble enough to admit it.   Shoot sometimes I wonder and doubt the existence of God.  Through every doubt it seems I come out more enlightened.

Perhaps when I say God I am saying the mystery of us.  That which we do not know.  It makes sense to me because theists do argue from ignorance.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Bluecolour

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2014, 07:39:25 AM »
Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2014, 08:00:50 AM »
That is what he said.  You added a sentence. ;)

The sentence I "added" was not between quotes, which indicates explicitly that those are not his words, but mine.

You do not know that God/s are impossible.  I do not know that they are.   I am humble enough to admit it.

I have defined a perfect being (the only kind I would call "God" and would worship) as possessing three properties: omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence. These things are inconsistent with each other and reality. Ergo, gods are impossible.

Shoot sometimes I wonder and doubt the existence of God.  Through every doubt it seems I come out more enlightened.

You and I have different opinions on the meaning of the word "enlightened".

Perhaps when I say God I am saying the mystery of us.  That which we do not know.  It makes sense to me because theists do argue from ignorance.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam is not arguing that you don't know. It's arguing that, because we can't disprove something (can't know it doesn't exist), it must be true.
Anyway, if that's your definition of a god, I doubt your claim that it "comforted" you.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2014, 08:04:20 AM »
Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2014, 08:13:06 AM »

The sentence I "added" was not between quotes, which indicates explicitly that those are not his words, but mine.

That's why I said "you".  I know it was "you".

The rest is you clearly not understanding my perception.

You already admitted you do not understand spiritual not religious.  Many here don't so it's okay.   That's why I'm here, I think. ;)

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2014, 08:18:38 AM »
That's why I said "you".  I know it was "you".

Ah. I interpreted it as "What I[1] said is what he said, but what you said is not what he said, as you added a sentence.". My apologies.

The rest is you clearly not understanding my perception.

Do you understand your perception? Because I don't think you do. Otherwise, you'd be explaining it to me.

You already admitted you do not understand spiritual not religious.  Many here don't so it's okay.   That's why I'm here, I think. ;)

There's a reason most don't understand it: because there's no such thing. Those who claim to understand it are not splitting hairs; they're admitting to having cognitive dissonance.
 1. You, junebug72.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2014, 08:23:29 AM »
That's why I said "you".  I know it was "you".

Ah. I interpreted it as "What I[1] said is what he said, but what you said is not what he said, as you added a sentence.". My apologies.

The rest is you clearly not understanding my perception.

Do you understand your perception? Because I don't think you do. Otherwise, you'd be explaining it to me.

You already admitted you do not understand spiritual not religious.  Many here don't so it's okay.   That's why I'm here, I think. ;)

There's a reason most don't understand it: because there's no such thing. Those who claim to understand it are not splitting hairs; they're admitting to having cognitive dissonance.
 1. You, junebug72.

You said you've heard the spiel a thousand times and still don't understand it.  You don't want to understand it you want to mock it. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2014, 08:27:17 AM »
You said you've heard the spiel a thousand times and still don't understand it.

I thought you were referring to your perception of what a god is and isn't, rather than the whole "spiritual, not religious" stuff.

You don't want to understand it you want to mock it. 

I can't understand it because there's no such thing.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2014, 08:37:29 AM »
You said you've heard the spiel a thousand times and still don't understand it.

I thought you were referring to your perception of what a god is and isn't, rather than the whole "spiritual, not religious" stuff.

You don't want to understand it you want to mock it. 

I can't understand it because there's no such thing.

There is no so thing as my perception OAA? 
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2014, 08:38:23 AM »
There is no so thing as my perception OAA? 

Sorry; I should've clarified. I meant that I can't understand "spiritual, but not religious" because there's no such thing.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Bluecolour

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2014, 08:53:09 AM »
Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions.
I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.
Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.
If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,
blue.

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2014, 08:53:39 AM »
There is no so thing as my perception OAA? 

Sorry; I should've clarified. I meant that I can't understand "spiritual, but not religious" because there's no such thing.

You only say that because you don't understand it.  You are still saying my perception does not exist.

We are less popular than atheist among Christians.  In fact I think we are atheism and religion's most formidable opponent.  Some religious here won't even talk to me.  They hardly talk to each other.  What kind of brotherhood is that?

We are the real Xmen. 8)



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2014, 09:01:03 AM »
First you say:

I'm not sure what God is.

...followed by this:

"If anything can happen God can happen."


Can you see what's wrong with that?
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2014, 09:03:09 AM »
Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions.
I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.
Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.
If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,
blue.

Look man I read your post.  All that jive about how you know God loves me and answers my prayers.  Please pray for me so I can get comfort.
Please show me mercy you're stripping my mom.  What's my love got to do with it? 

I wasn't being hostile.  I was being sincere.  When I have a hard time comprehending that's what I do and it helps me to comprehend the author's story. 

All I could do is repeat myself.  How would that help you understand anything?

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2014, 09:04:26 AM »
First you say:

I'm not sure what God is.

...followed by this:

"If anything can happen God can happen."


Can you see what's wrong with that?

That's easy you took the term out of it's context.  It's mockery. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2014, 09:05:09 AM »
You only say that because you don't understand it.  You are still saying my perception does not exist.

No and no. Your perception does exist. It's just a flawed one.

We are less popular than atheist among Christians.

And this is relevant... why? Bisexuals are less popular than nearly every other sexuality among every group. Too many people who think we should just "pick a side" or that we're just "undecided"/"confused" or that we just want to have sex with whomever we want. Too many people in high school and college who kiss people of the same sex and go "OMG I'M TOTES BI!" or whatever those retards say nowadays.

In fact I think we are atheism and religion's most formidable opponent.

I'd laugh, but that notion is just sad. You are no opponent to me or religion. You are on religion's side, even if you don't admit it, and atheism has nothing to fear from irrationality.

Some religious here won't even talk to me.  They hardly talk to each other.  What kind of brotherhood is that?

There are ~40,000 denominations in christianity alone. There are thousands upon thousands of religions in history. Why do you think they hardly talk to each other?

We are the real Xmen. 8)

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2014, 09:26:56 AM »
First you say:

I'm not sure what God is.

...followed by this:

"If anything can happen God can happen."


Can you see what's wrong with that?

That's easy you took the term out of it's context.  It's mockery.

If you'd like to keep on hanging yourself, we will keep on paying out the rope.  Your choice.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #140 on: May 17, 2014, 09:57:25 AM »
First you say:

I'm not sure what God is.

...followed by this:

"If anything can happen God can happen."


Can you see what's wrong with that?

That's easy you took the term out of it's context.  It's mockery.

If you'd like to keep on hanging yourself, we will keep on paying out the rope.  Your choice.

I don't understand what rope am I hanging on. :?

This is the conversation;

Big bang does not imply luck. given a long enough time anything that can happen will happen....including big bangs.

"No telling what we might become... " i doubt we will be completely organic structures .

If anything can happen God can happen.

Somebody had to point out the mistake eh! made.  I bet he don't make the mistake of saying that again.  Not all things are possible.  I do know this.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Bluecolour

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #141 on: May 17, 2014, 10:14:57 AM »
Junebug, I need you to clarify something.

When you say (as you often do) that a persons view on god determines who they are, in what sense do you use the word determine.

Sense 1 would be 'determine' as in: 'your genes determine the colour of your skin.'

Sense 2 as in: 'we determine the composition of stars by the light rays they emit.'

A 3rd sense in which both sense 1 and sense 2 are implied to a varying degree.

Or none of the above.

Try using the words around the word "determine" to "determine" what I mean. :)

Junebug, I consider this a very hostile response a legitimate question.

You claim I am blinded by 'contempt' and complain that I don't understand your view, but I have done nothing but ask questions. I have not insulted you. I have never at any point even argued with you. I was brought up in a religious household and it is difficult for me to immediately relate to some of your ideas, I'm sorry. But all I've done so far is ask questions.
I did not demand proof. I did not decry your assertions. I did not even demand to be convinced.
Anyone, following this thread will bear me witness that I have not been disrespectful to your views in any way. I might have misunderstood them at certain times, but I did not refute them.
If you don't want to answer questions on your belief that's fine and we can discontinue this conversation. But don't accuse me of contempt and besmear the intent of honest straightforward questions.

Without malice,
blue.

Look man I read your post.  All that jive about how you know God loves me and answers my prayers.  Please pray for me so I can get comfort.
Please show me mercy you're stripping my mom.  What's my love got to do with it? 

I wasn't being hostile.  I was being sincere.  When I have a hard time comprehending that's what I do and it helps me to comprehend the author's story. 

All I could do is repeat myself.  How would that help you understand anything?



Fine, you got me.

Initially I did think your views were ridiculous. But what was I supposed to think? I had never heard them before.
I'm a Christian. My initial response whenever someone says, 'there is no god' or 'god is only your perception of him' is  always going to be 'that's ridiculous.'
But when I hear that, I have a choice either to walk away with my smug assessment of that persons POV or stay and have a conversation with that person. Perhaps realize that persons views are not so silly as I thought after all.

Junebug, I think your views are ridiculous. But I think them less ridiculous now than I did when we began this conversation.

Is that so bad. After all Junebug, I'm a Christian. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of a god who made the whole world in six days and that very soon he'll be coming back to take me up to heaven to be with him.
Can you honestly say that you don't find THAT ridiculous?
Isn't that what this site is? A bunch of people all making attempts at meaningful discussion with people whose views and opinions they consider ridiculously inferior to their own.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally never ask a question that I don't need an answer to. It may not seem that way to you. It may seem derisive and mocking (and granted sometimes it is) but if I bother to ask at all it is because I am genuinely trying to understand the view of the person I'm asking.

I'm sorry if you took my posts the wrong way and I honestly think its better if we end this conversation here, but I was truly hoping to go away from this thread with an understanding of your god POV. Not my own opinion, not my own misuderstanding of something you said, but your actual views. Regardless of whether or not I can find it in myself to believe them.

Signing out.
Bluecolour.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #142 on: May 17, 2014, 10:47:51 AM »
And yet to us rationalists, you both look like this:


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #143 on: May 17, 2014, 10:50:25 AM »
Then I will do my best to explain them to you.  I will post it in testimonials okay.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: RE: What do you mean when you say "god"?
« Reply #144 on: May 17, 2014, 10:51:56 AM »
And yet to us rationalists, you both look like this:




That never has been and never will be me.  You're not laughing at me.  This shows your problem not mine.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99