Author Topic: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell  (Read 2500 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2014, 07:43:14 PM »
I don't understand the link between this :
Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around.
And this :
Meaning he did not create Space and Time, which is part of "everything", because he could only exist once it had been made in the Big Bang.
For the sake of argument I can agree with "Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around." (just until I find a way to prove it false) And with "nothing is always around"
Now I ask you, if God did not create Space and Time. Who did?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2014, 08:52:02 PM »
You are provoking a fallacy:

Argument from Ignorance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Why does it have to be a who?

If the world works naturally now, why could it not be created naturally too?

Long story short, this is where religion thrives, "There HAS to be an intelligent creator who made all this".

In reality, none of those religions can prove just what they spew it true. We don't know what made Time and Space, but it is NOT a free pass for you and your people to make up fairy tales of a magical god who supposedly always existed even though that is not possible, because you know, the Time and Space thing we discussed.

This is also known as the God of Gaps argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps  (Not a good thing)

Which goes like:
"Guys, we just don't what happened here."
"Yeah, then it must be God, since there is an absence of an explanation."
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:56:00 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2014, 09:00:01 PM »
It doesn't have to be a who.
You used as your argument that you knew it wasn't God who created the universe. ("Meaning he did not create Space and Time") So, if you knew it wasn't him then you must know who it was. If not, you cannot say that it wasn't him with certitude and you must find another argument.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2014, 09:04:17 PM »
It doesn't have to be a who.
You used as your argument that you knew it wasn't God who created the universe. ("Meaning he did not create Space and Time") So, if you knew it wasn't him then you must know who it was. If not, you cannot say that it wasn't him with certitude and you must find another argument.

I also Know it's not my Spaghetti Pants.

I say it wasn't God because you haven't proved he exists. And how he could make Time and Space without existing.

<edit>

WOAH WOAH WOAH

Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2014, 09:08:01 PM »
Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
I believe he did. I am ready to stop believing that if you find evidence of the contrary. I will then believe that God created the "thing" that created the universe.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:09:36 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2014, 09:14:32 PM »
Did you just admit God may not be what made the universe?
I believe he did. I am ready to stop believing that if you find evidence of the contrary. I will then believe that God created the "thing" that created the universe.
Faith in humanity kind of restored. I'm glad you aren't as stubborn as some.

But you might be missing the point. The Universe, which is Space Time, is the only place God can exist, as we have agreed many many times. Because Space Time were not always around (I can say this, now that we cleared it up), God, who cannot exist outside of Space Time, was also not around. So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2014, 09:15:43 PM »
I say it wasn't God because you haven't proved he exists.
Oh yes we did :
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
God existed
We are not agreeing on "how" he exist yet but I've proven his existence.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2014, 09:18:00 PM »
You made the mistake.

You made the one mistake I was hoping you weren't dense enough to make.

FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed, just so I could show you the illogicallity of your belief. I am an Atheist, and you have provided no evidence of his existence.

If a kid asks you, "Dad, where does Santa live?"
You would at first say, "Honey, Santa isn't real."
Then he might say, "But let's just assume. IF he did exist, where would he live?"
You could say, "Hmm, I would say in a Big Mansion on North Pole."


Now, YOU, Luk, just basically said, "SO DAD YOU ADMIT THAT SANTA IS REAL!"
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:20:45 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2014, 09:28:27 PM »

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2014, 09:31:28 PM »
You made the mistake.

You made the one mistake I was hoping you weren't dense enough to make.

FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed, just so I could show you the illogicallity of your belief. I am an Atheist, and you have provided no evidence of his existence.

If a kid asks you, "Dad, where does Santa live?"
You would at first say, "Honey, Santa isn't real."
Then he might say, "But let's just assume. IF he did exist, where would he live?"
You could say, "Hmm, I would say in a Big Mansion on North Pole."


Now, YOU, Luk, just basically said, "SO DAD YOU ADMIT THAT SANTA IS REAL!"
Dude, where did you say "FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT I presupposed that God existed" or something similar before admitting that he exist?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2014, 09:48:48 PM »

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2014, 09:50:15 PM »
*exists*- for argument's sake, I said he exists to provide a deeper answer. I however did NOT factually claim he exists. So no more of those "aha!" replies.
This.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:53:45 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2014, 09:59:51 PM »
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2014, 10:07:31 PM »

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
No, not enough. What is this thing? How can it exist? Why don't you want it to be made by God?
You leave room for something else than the big bang then you destroy it right after put God in it and then you say that it is your argument and that I am to dumb to understand it.
What about this:
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Not bad eh?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2014, 06:33:31 AM »
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.
You are very new around here, aren't you?

I have been reading this website far longer than you have just now decided to make an account.

You have no idea what Atheists do to actially get those few minutes of a sensible conversation with people like you. When I said "Now he exists", I am saying that hypothetically. It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2014, 06:37:18 AM »

So this "thing" that came "Before" (if that's even logically sound with physics) was not made by God, since he didn't exist yet. But then this "thing" could also not have existed since nothing can exist outside of Space Time.

Umm...it gets confusing. But it makes sense nonetheless.
Nope, doesn't make sense at all :(
I have explained it enough. If you are unable to grasp it, then I'm sorry, I guess.
No, not enough. What is this thing? How can it exist? Why don't you want it to be made by God?
You leave room for something else than the big bang then you destroy it right after put God in it and then you say that it is your argument and that I am to dumb to understand it.
What about this:
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Not bad eh?
What the hell do you not understand that if God existed (Which is yet to be proven), he would be a part of this "everything". And if everything did not exist, he could not either!

You ARE too stupid to understand this (Ad Hom but I don't care) you already accepted without space time god cannot exist, and if there is nothing, he cannot exist, so he cannot be around to make something that would allow him to exist.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2014, 06:44:17 AM »
I see the difference.

You are far too proud and are unwilling to let go of your fairy tales.

I proudly accept that not a single person on this Earth know the "cause" of the Big Bang. You are one of them; you do not know what "made" the Big Bang. Anything counter to that, and you need, and trust me on this, A LOT OF EVIDENCE.

And as we have seen in other threads, your standard for evidence would make the scientific community barf.

I am proud to say "No we do not know yet how it happened, but with advances in technology and understanding of the universe, we can maybe find out some day."

You are saying "Oh? So you don't know what made the Big Bang bang? The explanation is not yet understood but I perfectly understand it: GODIDIT**!"

**http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Godidit!
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2014, 03:42:17 PM »
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2014, 03:49:30 PM »
If you are done insulting me and assuming false things about me. We could continue this discussion and, maybe, evolve from it.
I told you in a private message, insults and menaces don't help the discussion at all. People get angry when they feel like they are cornered, like they made a mistake and are too proud to accept it, when they are scared that others will judge them for that. So they scream, they insult, they use menaces to make themselves feel superior and hope that the other one will flee.
I won't flee. I will wait for you to calm down and ask questions or give me a counter argument that will get the conversation going.
I will repeat :
New assertion : Nothing existed before God that's why he made everything.
Any questions?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2014, 03:53:01 PM »
Some examples to back up my previous post :
"You are very new around here
You have no idea what Atheists do to actially get those few minutes of a sensible conversation with people like you
you have some sort of problem
You ARE too stupid to understand this
I don't care
You are far too proud and are unwilling
your standard for evidence would make the scientific community barf.
You are saying..."
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2014, 04:40:39 PM »
Evidence.
You are not getting it still.

God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.

Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense. Where am I loosing you? It's like you keep ignoring this part: You agreed God must exist in Space Time, and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.

Why are you ignoring that?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2014, 04:43:37 PM »
Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.

And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.

I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 04:53:44 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2014, 04:54:40 PM »
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2014, 05:16:55 PM »
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
Dude...there was 2 times when you accepted God exist before your "proof"
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2014, 05:19:38 PM »
It seems like you have some sort of problem because you fail to understand the term "For the sake of the argument".
Oh I understand it perfectly. And I respect it. But you cannot blame me to have not assumed it when you did not speak of it.
Yes I did, and you ignored the quote I provided as proof?
Dude...there was 2 times when you accepted God exist before your "proof"
No I did not. If I wrote poorly or you misinterpreted,  then I'm sorry. But don't tell me I believe in God from now. You have the answer now: No, not at a single moment in our discussion did I actually accept god as a legit fact. If you misinterpreted or I ssid it poorly, I apologize.

Now, answer those that you skipped.

(Do not reply to this if you have not yet replied to all those skipped posts, please) This is why I insulted you. Why else the hell would be having this conversation if I agreed that God exists? Seriously, use your deduction skills.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 05:23:47 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2014, 05:33:09 PM »
God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.
Yes since God exist.
Quote
Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense.
I agree. He existed when nothing but him existed.
Quote
You agreed God must exist in Space Time
Only if space time is everything (meaning that space time is God too, like a synonym or something similar). Or only if nothing exist out of space time.(since God exist he must be in space time)
Quote
and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.
God did not make himself. Does that help?

For the sake of argument. Let's say that God did not make space and time. What does it prove? Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?

Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.
And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.
I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
I'm sorry every-time I read these I get so angry because of the insults that I cannot read the questions that you want me to answer. Maybe If you ask them again without the insults this time?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2014, 05:35:56 PM »
Now God exists
That is existence, just like god
Those 2 where said before yesterday. (not bad, 2 out of the 3 I cited)
But that's ok, if you want to go back on you word.

If I wrote poorly [...] then I'm sorry.
[...] I ssid it poorly, I apologize.
I'm glad you went back on your word :)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 07:51:54 PM »
God is part of everything, according to you. If nothing existed, he wouldnt exist either.
Yes since God exist.
evidence.
Quote
Therefore, "He made everything when nothing existed" does not make sense.
I agree. He existed when nothing but him existed.
if nothing existed, space time did not exist. If space time did not exist, god did not exist, since he can only exist in spade time.
Quote
You agreed God must exist in Space Time
Only if space time is everything (meaning that space time is God too, like a synonym or something similar). Or only if nothing exist out of space time.(since God exist he must be in space time).If space time is god, then you just admitted god was not always around (which goes against your idea of an eternal god)
Quote
and if wasn't always around, then God, who exists only in space time, cannot make space and time, since he did not exist yet.
God did not make himself. Does that help?

For the sake of argument. Let's say that God did not make space and time. What does it prove? Does space and time need to me made by something or someone?
God did not make space and time, because he couldn't have existed without space and time in the first place, so you are correct in saying he didn't make it, because that would not make sense. What does it prove? That your creation story is false. "Need"? Elaborate please. If I am missing something here, tell me, but yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist.
Oh, and please answer my post. You answered all the insults, now please answer the actual content of it.
And all of the above that you ignored, you know which ones.
I will not refute your "Assertion" until you do so.
I'm sorry every-time I read these I get so angry because of the insults that I cannot read the questions that you want me to answer. Maybe If you ask them again without the insults this time?
No insult here, but I'm kind of in a hurry. And I suck at quoting, but they are just up there.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 11:39:15 PM »
That's ok I have time. I'll wait.
To the question "Does space and time need to be made by something or someone?" You answered : "yes it kinda "needs" to have a moment of creation or nothing would exist" How is that "moment" possible? There nothing exist out of space and time, not even this "moment of creation".
You're worth more than my time