Author Topic: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell  (Read 2258 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 10:30:04 PM »
OK then. Space as dimensions. I can work with that.
Heaven, Hell and God are all in space and time. So they exist.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2014, 10:45:54 PM »
I really like this video about our dimensions. (And the string theory) It will help you understand how I see God as the "highest" being.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2014, 12:35:39 AM »
Are all in space?

You said that they were out of time and space in a previous post.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2014, 12:40:12 AM »
Yes. We didn't have the same definition of space then. If we allow all those 11 dimensions then God is in space and time. Since the meaning of time change as you go up a dimension. (like you can see in the video).
Plus, when I said that, if you asked me I would have answered that this forum is out of time and space too. But since then I evolved with your answers to my questions.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:42:06 AM by Lukvance »
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2014, 12:50:46 AM »
Yes. We didn't have the same definition of space then. If we allow all those 11 dimensions then God is in space and time. Since the meaning of time change as you go up a dimension. (like you can see in the video).
Plus, when I said that, if you asked me I would have answered that this forum is out of time and space too. But since then I evolved with your answers to my questions.

So what about the bible, when it mentions that God is beyond Time and Space? Tell me if you need a quote.

We both agree on one thing, time and space itself was created in the Big Bang, meaning therefore that God himself had to be created in the Big Bang, since he *exists* only in space and time.

That is conflicting. God was never "created", yet as you have acknowledged, he also could not have "been" any other way.

How can this Almighty God be so restrained by Time and Space?

(By the way, I'm glad you admitted this. I have many more reasons to put down but for now I shall rest for tomorrow :D )

*exists*- for argument's sake, I said he exists to provide a deeper answer. I however did NOT factually claim he exists. So no more of those "aha!" replies.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 12:53:40 AM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2014, 01:05:47 AM »
Restrained? How can Time and Space restrain God? If it restrained him, wouldn't it mean that there is something outside time and space?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2014, 05:44:11 AM »
It restrains him because he cannot exist outside of it.

This all powerful god is nothing without space time. Literally.

Then there is the other problem. Since you accredit god with the creation of space time, how could he make himself?

Since he exists only in space time, he started existing only when he made space time? Non sequitur.

It restrains him because a god is supposed to be able to do anything, yet he cannot *exist* without the passage of time and the space of...space.

Once again, do not mistake my use of "exist" as proof that I gave in. No, I do it for the sake of argument.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:13:42 AM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2014, 10:19:24 AM »
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.

You said before that god exists outside of time and space. Then we argued and you admitted god must exist in time and space. Now you say he exists out side of time and space.

Please pick one. If you pick outside, then you are rejecting all the agreement we made above, and pin right back into "it's real for me" which is meaningless.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2014, 11:31:52 AM »
Yes God can exist outside of time and space...for people like me who thinks that things exist outside of time and space. For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
You have to be careful on how you use time and space.
God wasn't made, if he was, it would be by "something" greater than him and nothing is greater than God. By definition God has all the qualities imaginable.
Think of something, add it a quality then add it another quality... Etc when you don't have any quality left to add, you'll get God.

You said before that god exists outside of time and space. Then we argued and you admitted god must exist in time and space. Now you say he exists out side of time and space.

Please pick one. If you pick outside, then you are rejecting all the agreement we made above, and pin right back into "it's real for me" which is meaningless.

And one more thing. Keep adding qualities til you can't anymore?

Ok:
Evil
Murderous
Unjust
Stupid
Retarded
Idiotic
Homosexual
Feminine
Stinky
Nasty
Etc.

Is that your god? Since you said keep adding qualities? Those are descriptions of his qualities. Is that your god?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2014, 12:26:07 PM »
And one more thing. Keep adding qualities til you can't anymore?
Ok:
Evil
Murderous
Unjust
Stupid
Retarded
Idiotic
Homosexual
Feminine
Stinky
Nasty
Etc.
Is that your god? Since you said keep adding qualities? Those are descriptions of his qualities. Is that your god?
Yes, if you think of those as qualities. For me they are more flaws than qualities.

About the presence of God in time and space. I don't have to pick one. Your definition of existence and mine are different.
According to your definition, God is not outside of time and space (because there is no "outside" of time and space)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2014, 06:26:34 PM »
God exists as a concept in your head. However, before you were alive, that concept was not there in your head. And therefore, you created the concept of God yourself.
Isn't that the same thing with love? Before you were alive, the concept of love was not there in your head. If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2014, 06:32:18 PM »
You can't just redefine words to fit as you wish.

I have explained how "Exist" works only in Space and Time. You simply said, in simple terms, "Ok, you explained it logically, but God exists anyways."

Let me break it down further for you.

Exist: Having location and time. "Being" in Space and Time.

    Physical (Real World): Cars, air, trees, etc.

    Chemical: Thoughts, emotions, God, concepts that solely take place in mind.

Both above Exist, but in different situations.

Physical is self explanatory, and Chemical is also existent but slightly differently.

Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology.

Therefore, your God is non existent in real life, but he exists as an idea, just like Zeus, Ra, or Vishnu. Meaning he did not create the world. You are the one who "created" him in your mind. Because the chemical processes in your brain allow you to think, God existed as a concept, not as a being that controls all of the universe.

My apologies for not clarifying earlier.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, do you understand why, if he existed in space and time, he is not eternal?

Space time have not always been around, as seen by the Big Bang theory. And you have acknowledged that God can exists only in Space and Time, above.

Therefore, if you strip him of his "eternal" status (Which the scientifically supported theory DOES), he is no longer god.

I have no clue how you will deny this, but I'm curious.

"Isn't that the same thing with love? Before you were alive, the concept of love was not there in your head. If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?"

Well, ofcourse. It's basic psychology and biology. I labeled a chemical process in my head as "love".
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2014, 06:34:51 PM »
Please read my previous post, edits were made.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2014, 06:53:57 PM »
Interesting. Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
"Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology."
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. Right?
Space time have not always been around
Eh? who's being illogical here? Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2014, 07:07:17 PM »
Interesting. Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
"Chemical cannot affect anything, unless the host acts, and are perceptions that are generated by our minds. Basic Psychology."
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. Right?
Space time have not always been around
Eh? who's being illogical here? Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
My parents loved (Verb, action, occurs in space, and over time) me. My parents annoyed (same) me.

My brain labeled the concept in my own head as love. The concept was not existent in my head until I had a head. Your point? My brain labeled annoyance as annoyance.

And are you saying space time have always been around? No, seeing as you do acknowledge the validity of the Big Bang.

Once again, I cannot answer your second question, seeing as that is closely associated with the "before" of the Big Bang, and I want to avoid unsubstantiated claims of that realm. Hope you can understand.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 08:34:17 PM »
Since you can't answer the question, you cannot affirm that "space time have not always been around". Agreed?
How can Time and Space restrain God? It can't since we agreed there was nothing else.
So love was there before you? You did not invent it (or create it) So you made a second mistake by claiming you did. ("Well, ofcourse.") Agreed?
Acts, cannot affect anything (they don't exist) unless the chemicals in your brain commands you. You agree?
Is there a counter argument that I forgot to nullify?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2014, 09:46:38 PM »
Can you affirm that space time was always around? Go ahead, prove the Big Bang theory wrong and collect your nobel prize. The big bang does however, point to the creation of everything, and that everything includes space time.

Where did I say I made love? My brain created its own perception of an act and labeled it as love. What's the problem here? Did I expressely state there was no love before I made it?

They restrain God because He cannot exist outside of it as you and your fellow believer claim!

Why are you not understanding that?!

An action is inexistent?  How so? Does it not occur in space time? Does it occur elsewhere?

Just clarify this one last time; Do you claim tha God exists outside of Time and Space?
Do you claim God created time and space?
What is the difference between your Exist and my Exist?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2014, 10:09:11 PM »
This conversation is coming back full circle. Neither of us has made any great leaps.

Do you want to stay on the topic of god's existence, or move onto to heaven and hell?

It's up to you, since you seem unable to grasp that your definition of god contradicts with your agreement with the fact that existence only occurs in Space time, from which your god is supposed to be exempt from.

God does not exist in space time, but rather outside of it.

The above statement makes no sense. I am at a lose of words as to how else I can say this. If you claim it, you are logically incorrect. That has been my whole point from the start. Not that it'll change anything now.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2014, 11:25:50 PM »
Can you affirm that space time was always around? Go ahead, prove the Big Bang theory wrong and collect your nobel prize. The big bang does however, point to the creation of everything, and that everything includes space time.
Yes Space Time was always around. The big bang theory prove that. If I proved the big bang theory wrong it would mean that space time was NOT always around.
I don't understand why would I want to prove it wrong? YOU are the one saying there was a "before" big bang, not me!
You said :
Space time have not always been around, as seen by the Big Bang theory. And you have acknowledged that God can exists only in Space and Time, above.
I said :
Are you saying that there was a time when space time wasn't there?
You answered :
I cannot answer your second question, seeing as that is closely associated with the "before" of the Big Bang, and I want to avoid unsubstantiated claims of that realm.
Which I translated by "I don't know what I'm saying"

-----

I asked :

If I follow your logic, you created the concept of love yourself?
You answered :
Well, ofcourse. It's basic psychology and biology. I labeled a chemical process in my head as "love".
Which mean you created the concept of love.
So I asked:
Since you created the concept of love, can I assume that you parents did not love you? (since the concept was not created yet)
And you answered :
My parents loved (Verb, action, occurs in space, and over time) me. My parents annoyed (same) me.
Which mean you did NOT created the concept of love (because your parents had it before you did)

Imagine my surprise when I read :
Where did I say I made love?

When you say :
They restrain God because He cannot exist outside of it as you and your fellow believer claim!
I remember telling you :
For people like you, there is nothing outside of time and space. So God can be everything even if he is in time and space. By definition there is nothing more than everything.
And :
According to your definition, God is not outside of time and space (because there is no "outside" of time and space)
Which means that I agree with you. God is everything.
So, again, how is that restraining?

An action is inexistent?
How so?
Does it not occur in space time?
Does it occur elsewhere?

Yes.
When you don't have a brain.
No, it's inexistent.
No. There is nothing else than Space an Time.

Just clarify this one last time; Do you claim that God exists outside of Time and Space?
NO, not according to your definition of time and space. (which are all the dimensions)

Quote
Do you claim God created time and space?
I'm assuming that you believe that time and space have been created. So yes, he created everything.  Who else could have created time and space?
If you think that time and space have not been created (then does not exist?) then, no. 
Quote
What is the difference between your Exist and my Exist?
My exist let room for something outside time and space. Yours don't.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 05:32:56 PM »
"Yes Space Time was always around. The big bang theory prove that."

No it does not. You have it all wrong. The Big Bang points towards an event that created/made Space and Time. That's why it's called a Big Bang...a bang happened, and stuff came from it. (Simple terms).

I am the one saying we should not try and claim the what happened "Before" the big bang, because it is where physics break down, and a singularity exists. You are seriously putting words in my mouth. I would appreciate if you stopped.

"Which I translated by 'I don't know what I'm saying'"

Really? Really? So because I am trying to be mature and point out that yes, this is something I don't know, and neither do you, I don't know what I'm saying? Nice logic.

Do you know what 'unsubtantiated' means? If I start making those kinds of claims about the "before", I would be no better than the people who say "Godidit".

"Which mean you created the concept of love..."

My body labeled a perception of a chemical process in my head as "love".
Where did I expressly say Love was not around before I perceived it in my own head? No where.

"Which mean you did NOT created the concept of love (because your parents had it before you did)"

Labeled =/= Created. There you go again, redefining words.

I created the concept of love in myself, in my brain, after I was born (if you really want to use the word "created"). Now stop talking about love and get to the point.

"God is everything"? Evidence, please.

I have given you far too much ground by saying "For the sake of the argument..."

Evidence. Please. :)

"So, again, how is that restraining?"

I'll say it for about the 5th time. You have claimed in the past that your God exists outside of Time and Space.

Then you agreed with me that "God is not outside of time and space".

I let this change of thoughts go unquestioned. But you need to consider this:

The Big Bang made Time and Space. It is fundamental in the theory (Which you seriously need to relearn).

Since now you say your God exists outside of Time and Space, it turns into this:

Your God did not exist "Before" the Big Bang. Since there was no Time and Space to accomodate him, he did not exist. If he did not exist, he could not create Time and Space, like you claim he did (Fallaciously).

You also state that your God is eternal.

Something eternal is not created! And since you now state Space Time was once created, and God can only exist in Space time, he had to have been somehow "created" when Space TIme was also created.

Therefore your God, by your own agreement to my "Exist only in Space Time", is not eternal, and if he is not eternal, he is not God. Meaning, he might as well not exist, since he by definition is no longer what you say he is.

Please Read this ^^ ^paragraph^ ^^, it is absolutely essential.

This is what I have been trying to tell you.

"Yes."

You are wrong. It happens in Space and Time; it exists. They have been proven to exist. Want an experiment? Blink your eye. That's an action.

"When you don't have a brain."

If there is the ocean, and the sun in the distance, the sun's radiations acts on the water.
The action is labeled as evaporation. No need for brains anywhere.

"No, it's inexistent."

See above.

"No. There is nothing else than Space and Time."

Yes, and that is why actions occur in Space Time. Because they exist.

"So yes, he created everything."

Sigh.

Space Time was not always around. Big Bang theory supports this. You know, Big Bang, the one you completely misinterpreted?
Since Space TIme was not always around, God, who can exist only in Space Time, was not always around.

Meaning he did not create Space and Time, which is part of "everything", because he could only exist once it had been made in the Big Bang. How could he have existed before having Space and TIme to exist in? Your agreement with me then supports this statement: He did not create Everything, because he did not exist, as Space and time, a part of everything, were not around to allow him to exist and create Everything.

"My exist let room for something outside time and space. Yours don't."

You have already agreed that existance only occurs in Space and Time. There is no "Outside" Space and Time. Therefore, the above statement is trashed. You now can only use "exist" when its definition is what we agreed to; inside of TIme and Space.

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 05:48:03 PM »
I'm sorry. I'm really confused now.
To help me, I will ask you to answer by yes or no.
Is there something that exist outside space time (like the singularity for example)?

Before you answer, let me remind you what is your definition of exist :
For me (and dictionaries, various) existance occurs in time and space.  If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2014, 06:14:09 PM »
No, nothing exists outside of time and space. Existence is a property that is only to be had in Space and Time.

How do you know if the singularity "existed outside" of it?

But we are back at talking about the "Before". Neither you nor I have substantial evidence to affirm a positive claim. It would be better to just drop it.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2014, 06:22:26 PM »
Thank you.
Again, yes or no.
Was Space Time always around?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2014, 06:35:25 PM »
No, otherwise I would be trying to disprove Big Band theory.  I am not.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2014, 06:38:06 PM »
Thank you,
Does the fact that Time and Space was not always around means that there is something else than time and space?
Again, yes or no.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2014, 07:12:36 PM »
Thank you,
Does the fact that Time and Space was not always around means that there is something else than time and space?
Again, yes or no.

"There is"
That parallels with exist.

If you are looking for existence in the absence of Space and Time, then No. I will stand by what I said. No.

This "Something else" does not make sense. It falls under the "before" category, and it suggests existence without the only thing that allows existence.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2014, 07:19:32 PM »
I think, I get it now. It's the wording "always around" that I don't understand.
For me, for something to not be always around means that there was something else before and there might be something else after.

Could you give me 2 examples of what was "always around" and 2 of what was not "always around"?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2014, 07:24:25 PM »
Nothing was always around.

Because Space and Time were not around*, nothing was "allowed" to be around, aka exist.

Please don't start telling me that "AHA! NOTHING is the thing that was always around." :)

2 of things not always around? 1. The idea/concept I have in my head of a toy car.
                                                  2. Cars, Trees, any matter.

*Whenever I make a statement like this, you can assume I am using the Big Bang theory to support my case, just so I have a little scientific backing.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.