Author Topic: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell  (Read 2116 times)

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Offline screwtape

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This debate is between Lukvance and Defiance.  The topic is the existence of god, heaven and hell.  Only these two participants are permitted to post in this thread.  Non-participants may post in the commentary thread

Any posts by non-participants in this thread will be deleted.

I suggest Lukvance and Defiance agree on a format and ending conditions prior to beginning their debate.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:33:34 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 01:37:37 PM »
Whoa! Ending conditions? Are there some for the kind of subject that we can't physically experience? I'm not sure.
About the format.. I'd love to have a question on each post (even if it's always the same) and that we don't leave any questions unanswered.
Do you have something to add Defiance? :)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 02:56:32 PM »
Try not to use vague analogies, please.
Please refrain from using logical fallacies, to save time (look for a list on wiki).

The debate ends if one of us is unable or refuses to effectively answer a question ("I don't know" is honestly acceptable).

Agreed?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 03:20:03 PM »
Whoa! Ending conditions?

That is, how do you end this debate/ discussion?  I do not believe either of you is at any point going to say "whoa, you sure kicked my ass there.  Congratulations, man, you won the debate."  So, there should be a way for this to end, and you should both agree on it up front.  You could each have 10 posts.  You could each make an opening statement, one rebuttal to the other's opening statement and one rebuttal after that.  Those are just examples.  It is whatever you want. 
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 03:38:14 PM »
Ok, how about this:

We each have 15 posts in total. No more posts after that. This will encourage both of us to get to the point and make each reply satisfactory. After that, I guess the commentary tread can decide who won. How about it?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 04:00:06 PM »
100 post! :) (or 77 to make it "perfect")
I think that even after 15 posts you will still have some questions left. Since it's my first time, I don't know how many post it will take. I know that since I started not so long ago, I posted already close to 300 times. All of them defending my faith :)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 05:15:49 PM »
All right. Might as well make it limitless.

But then how will we determine the winner?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 05:53:10 PM »
I don't think these type of discussion have one Winner.
We will both be winners since I at least have spent time doing something that I like and you will have answers to your questions.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 09:49:19 PM »
Alright, present your defense (or offense) and clesrly state which side you support.
Please look at suggestions provided in the commentary thread.
Also, answer these with yes or no.

Is heaven and hell a place and not just a state of mind or something?
Is your god all powerful, all knowing, and all good?
Define exist with non-idiotic terms. Meaning no "you named it and its real" kid of thing.
Try and refrain from using "I believe". We are having a potentially formal and educational debate; try and keep things objective.

Any requests of me?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 12:44:47 PM »
I believe that God, Heaven and Hell exist.
For me, something exist as soon as it has a name and a definition.
For me, there are different degrees of reality. The degree being define by my happiness now and later.
There are other factor than my own processing of reality that I have to consider to make something real. (like testimony of others)

Is heaven and hell a place and not just a state of mind or something?
Something. I never been "there". No one ever "came back" from there. It is not a physical place as we understand it today.
Quote
Is your god all powerful, all knowing, and all good?
Yes
Quote
Define exist with non-idiotic terms. Meaning no "you named it and its real" kid of thing.
I'm sorry, what I wrote earlier is how I define "exist". I don't see how this is idiotic. Maybe if you gave your definition we could understand why you believe it to be? Or does your definition use idiotic terms too?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 03:00:26 PM »
Our definitions of exist are different.

Let's work that first.

I have said many times : If I name something, for example "Spaghetti pants that walk around everywhere", does it exist?

I define Spaghetti pants as pants made out of spaghetti, with the ability to walk.

I defined it, and named it, how does it possibly exist now?

For me (and dictionaries, various) existance occurs in time and space.  If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space. Now God exists, but only as a concept in your mind, since concepts are physically caused by the brain functions, not something that made everything.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:04:32 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 03:36:57 PM »
Aren't your spaghetti pants a concept in your mind (and mine)?
Since you said "Now God exists, but only as a concept in your mind" So "spaghetti pants" exist.
"If something exists,  it participates and is located in time and space." Is that your definition of exist? Based on that definition, can we say that pain exist?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 05:55:37 PM »
Thank god! You get my point!

That is existence, just like god.

The pants exist only in mind, and god also exists only in mind.

And because they exist only in mind, they are not existent in real life (outside of our brain)  and do not interact with the world unless we use that thought to do something ourselves.

Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:59:18 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 07:05:12 PM »
So, we agree, God exist. That should close the debate on the existence of God. Is there something else you want to ask me?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2014, 07:24:32 PM »
Lol.
God does not exist outside of your imagination.
Alright case close.
We agreed right?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2014, 07:31:31 PM »
Yep because, for you, nothing else exist outside of your imagination. You proved it when you said that pain was imaginary.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2014, 08:22:15 PM »
What part of "Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain." do you not understand?

It is CAUSED by external stimuli.

Can you hold pain? No. Can you smell it? You feel it. It is a PERCEPTION created by your body to let you know that something is attacking you, and you need to run away.

Imaginary - COMPLETELY and fully created by your brain that has no connection whatsoever to the outside world.

Pain - CAUSED by outside world.

Pain is NOT imaginary. It is a label we put on a reaction we get to a stimulus.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2 (tell me if I still need to clarify the above points).

If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?

Space is everywhere, and it is constantly expanding. **

You have claimed countless times in your other posts that Heaven and Hell, plus God, are all existing outside of Space.

Explain, please.

*Refer to your two threads in which you replied to various other members.

**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe (Notice how the first sentence says "Observation")



« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 08:32:01 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2014, 08:33:20 PM »
Quote
What part of "Yes, pain is a physical and chemical process occurring in our brain." do you not understand?
Oh I understand and I agree. It is you who said that God was imaginary. Since God and pain exist at the same level I deduced that pain (for you) was imaginary.

If pain exist outside of your imagination then God exist outside of your imagination. (for the same reasons)

Then, saying
God does not exist outside of your imagination.
is false.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2014, 08:36:00 PM »
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2014, 08:44:09 PM »
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
I'll get back to the other question later on.

But how's this:

Tell me then, an example, plus sources, of something existing outside of Time and Space. God has not been proven to exist, and therefore him or any supernatural occurrences that are unproven cannot be used to support this.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2014, 09:28:35 PM »
Quote
If something can only exist in Space time* , how can it possibly exist anywhere else?
I don't know, we disagree on the fact that something can only exist in space time.
I'll get back to the other question later on.

But how's this:

Tell me then, an example, plus sources, of something existing outside of Time and Space. God has not been proven to exist, and therefore him or any supernatural occurrences that are unproven cannot be used to support this.
On the top or my head. The big bang. Or right "before"
The center of a black hole too.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 09:55:51 PM »
Never make the mistake of saying "before the Big Bang".

There is no before. No one is sure of the "before" and I admit to not knowing. Because of that, I will refrain from making positive claims about the Big Bang. You should too.

Other than that.

Space itself was created in the Big Bang, as explained by various respected theories (google). Does not answer the question. If there is no such thing as outside of Space, then where is something outside of space? We're back at square one.

Inside of black holes are excluded from space? If they were, we would be seeing missing mass that has "left" the black hole. We do not observe that. Even though it is uncertain what truly happens at the point of a singularity, there is no reason to say centres of black holes somehow suddenly exist somewhere else. It is unproven.

Tell me, without using the Internet, how much do you understand physics? I want to know so I can try and explain the essentials before trying to correct your mistakes.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2014, 10:02:16 PM »
I'm good. Before big bang and black holes were examples related to time.(they exist outside of time) For space we can look at the 9 other dimensions of the cord theory. They exist outside of space.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2014, 10:03:32 PM »
And luk, I know I might seem repetitive with the "nothing exists outside of space", but that is because I'm trying to explain to you that existence OCCURS in the SpaceTime. It does not occur in any other weird dimension, because the very property of existence is only to be had in Space.

Just like how length and width require two dimensions of space, Existance requires the four dimensions.

Wait, "which" theory?

And no, Black holes exist in time. They are made, and evaporate through Hawkings Radiation. (Wikipedia).

Again, you have no evidence of this "before" concept. Therefore it is meaning less as of right now.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:06:46 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2014, 10:09:05 PM »
Does this forum exist? If so, is his existence related to space? And time? Which one? Why that one more than the other?
If it does not exist, how can we be using something inexistent?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2014, 10:11:42 PM »
Yes this forum exists on the Internet.

The Internet is made of electron signals traveling everywhere through wifi, and cable. The arrangement of the electrons determine the words that show up on the screen. Therefore, this forum definitely exists in space, and it definitely occurs over time.

Seriously? Try harder.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2014, 10:15:15 PM »
The string theoryWiki sorry.
So the "where" of this forum is everywhere?
And the "when"?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2014, 10:21:55 PM »
The Internet is stored on date bases all around the world. Wikipedia has great information on how Internet works.

Where's all of it? No one place has all of it, it was designed to be like this so if one database was bombed or destroyed, the rest could still function with each other. Therefore, it's parts can be in various places. Just like if I broke a toy car, and scattered the pieces all over my house.

Why about time? What ABOUT it? I just said that the electronic signals occur over time; electrons travel through wires and all, and that takes time.

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2014, 10:26:15 PM »
As for your string theory thing:
This one part jumped out at me.

"String theory requires the existence of extra spatial dimensions"

This is in the wiki article. Read it.

Spatial dimensions. Dimensions of SPACE.
Those extra dimensions you speak of, are Space dimensions. Therefore, they are included in space.

Meaning the God cannot be there either, since he is outside of all space and time.

Where else could he be now?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:28:52 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.