Author Topic: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell  (Read 1915 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2014, 11:41:48 PM »
I an not making the claim that God made the universe anymore. That claim will come later once you deal with your inconsistency.

So, you are saying that telling 2 opposite truth[1] does not consist on a logic flaw?
See? I added the "even if we don't know what" to take into account your last post.
 1. there was nothing before the beginning of existence/ there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the beginning of existence
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #117 on: May 16, 2014, 05:56:33 AM »
Typical. Withdraw your claim when asked for evidence.

I already explained; I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space. My quote that you provided shows nothing, either.

It's been 5 pages. I have yet to see a shred of evidence from you.

Either you provide evidence, or end this debate with a "we don't know" and never make such a claim again.
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*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #118 on: May 16, 2014, 06:09:10 AM »
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it [the big bang] needs some semblance of a beginning.
Tell me again. What do you mean by that if not "there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the big bang"?
I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space.
Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space? (I guess you wanted to write time AND space instead of time as space.)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #119 on: May 16, 2014, 06:40:03 AM »
Yes:
If there was once nothing, then there was something, then of course it [the big bang] needs some semblance of a beginning.
Tell me again. What do you mean by that if not "there must be something (even if we don't know what) before the big bang"?
I did not state that something must exist outside of time as space to make time and space.
Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space? (I guess you wanted to write time AND space instead of time as space.)
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2014, 06:45:44 AM »
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
That's why I asked : Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2014, 08:03:28 AM »
Let me ask a question or two that might help move things along.

Can non-existence exist?  Is it possible for "nothing" to exist?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2014, 08:08:16 AM »
Let me ask a question or two that might help move things along.
Can non-existence exist?  Is it possible for "nothing" to exist?

Yes. Black is the perfect example. Black is the name given to the product of non existence of all the visual spectral colors.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2014, 02:55:30 PM »
And where did I say that "beginning" needs to be outside of time and space?
That's why I asked : Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
We don't know the "thing" or "what" "caused" the Big Bang. That is my whole point. No smart scientist has yet made a full positive claim that he knows exactly what "caused" the Big Bang.

Only churches and YOU make the full claim that God made it.

Burden of proof is, and has been on you. Provide evidence or drop your claim and stop claiming God made the world when you have zero evidence.

Black? Black is the absence of light. Does a hole exist? When there is an absence of light, there is still other things going on; air is still in the "black area", and there could also be other radiation you can't see so it seems to be "black".

But really? Black means light that isn't there doesn't exist? Because I didn't point my light at a certain area, means that light doesn't exist? No, all it means is that it is in a different position in space.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2014, 02:56:07 PM »
Please Luk, give me evidence. You wasted 5 pages. Please pay up.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2014, 03:27:26 PM »
I'm sorry I don't understand your answer. Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
Yes or No please. It's a really logic question. There is no science involved here.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2014, 03:44:28 PM »
I'm sorry I don't understand your answer. Did the thing that made time and space was in time and space?
Yes or No please. It's a really logic question. There is no science involved here.
I don't know. No one knows.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:48:05 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2014, 03:52:02 PM »
Good we agree with your answer, not your explanation. It not because no one knows that the answer is no. It is because it's logical to say that the thing who create is separate from the thing that is created.
For example I am separate from the table that I just created.

You understand now? (yes or no)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2014, 04:01:10 PM »
Good we agree with your answer, not your explanation. It not because no one knows that the answer is no. It is because it's logical to say that the thing who create is separate from the thing that is created.
For example I am separate from the table that I just created.

You understand now? (yes or no)

Non sequitur. Refer to OAA's refutation of your Non Sequiter, if you don't get it.

I said we don't know, and you jump to saying "therefore what made the universe must be separate".
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2014, 05:24:09 PM »
Not cool, changing your post after I made mine....not cool at all.
Is it that hard to say yes or no?
If you don't understand I can explain more. I even gave you an example. Did you understand the example? What part don't you understand?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2014, 06:10:05 PM »
Not cool, changing your post after I made mine....not cool at all.
Is it that hard to say yes or no?
If you don't understand I can explain more. I even gave you an example. Did you understand the example? What part don't you understand?
I changed it way before you posted. Stop lying, you can ask Screwtape for a time stamp confirmation, if possible.
I changed it to clear thing up; the original was kind of vague.

What don't YOU understand about "we don't know"? If you disagree, feel free provide evidence.

Which of course, you haven't been doing.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2014, 06:19:01 PM »
Look what I found in OAA's debate!

Luk: "Yes it was the proof of the existence of God."

Please, start introducing some into this debate too.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2014, 07:28:47 PM »
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Hence God exist.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2014, 07:34:38 PM »
The proof.
Since something that has been created must be created by something else AND the big bang was created THEN something else than the big bang must exist.
Since the big bang is the creation of time, this thing must be out of time and thus must have always been around.
This thing exist.
This thing Is God.
God exist.
QED (quod erat demonstrandum)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2014, 07:43:43 PM »
The proof.
Since something that has been created must be created by something else AND the big bang was created THEN something else than the big bang must exist.
Since the big bang is the creation of time, this thing must be out of time and thus must have always been around.
This thing exist.
This thing Is God.
God exist.
QED (quod erat demonstrandum)
:D
Explain how it can exist outside of time and space if exstance occurs only in time and space?
And while you're at it, who made your god?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2014, 07:50:38 PM »
Put it in a way in which a physicist can pick it up and see it for himself and make his own observations. Then you can go back on your word about our agreement; that a god would only exist in time and space. (Which, the actual god, hasn't been proven yet).

Then you can tell us how your god,  who is made of nothing,  can interact with physical world. You can also, with evidence, tell us how he could do all these actions without the passage of Time, and the space of Space, since actions must occur over time and in space.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:55:12 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2014, 07:51:28 PM »
I'm not claiming the exact cause of the big bang. I'm claiming that there is something that has always been around and that this thing is named God. You can give it any synonym if you want but it exist.
Hence God exist.
"I can't prove it, but it exists. So it exists."
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2014, 08:48:53 PM »
Explain how it can exist outside of time and space if exstance occurs only in time and space?
And while you're at it, who made your god?
God have always been around. Meaning he has no start and no finish. No one "made" God.
God is so powerful that he can exist outside time and space. Heck, the guy is even omnipotent.
Put it in a way in which a physicist can pick it up and see it for himself and make his own observations.
you want flowers with that?

Quote
Then you can tell us how your god,  who is made of nothing,  can interact with physical world.
He can interact through me or through miracles.
Quote
You can also, with evidence, tell us how he could do all these actions without the passage of Time, and the space of Space, since actions must occur over time and in space.
He is omnipotent.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2014, 09:55:30 PM »
Any actual evidence or just your word for it?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2014, 10:07:05 PM »
Miracles you failed to proof were real in other threads?

God, you say can exist before "exist" was a thing? Goes against your agreement with the statement that everything must exist in space time.

Again, your argument from ignorance is really showing through. Our gap in scientific knowledge does not give you authority to make up these tales, that you have NOT proven.

Is he omnipotent? Really? Prove his existence first, then name properties. All you have done so far is give some unsubstantiated assertive claim that:

"We don't know how the Big Bang came to be"
"God did it"
"But how can you back that up with evidence?"
"Because there needs to be a god there"

Seriously?

You have again, made the claim that your god has been forever, even though time only started ticking at the start of Big Bang...

He was passing time before time started passing? Non sequitur. It does not follow.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 10:22:06 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #140 on: May 16, 2014, 11:09:30 PM »
Miracles you failed to proof were real in other threads?
Liar. I proved them real. I gave the definition of a miracle then gave proof (examples) that such things corresponding to the definition existed.

Quote
God, you say can exist before "exist" was a thing? Goes against your agreement with the statement that everything must exist in space time.

No, where do I say that? You are the only one saying that.
Let me remind you that before the post #132 I destroyed your definition of existence with logic.
Quote
Again, your argument from ignorance is really showing through. Our gap in scientific knowledge does not give you authority to make up these tales, that you have NOT proven.

Again it is not an argument from ignorance. Something does not become that because you just say so. You have to prove it first.
I agree with you that there is a gap in our scientific knowledge, we don't know what happen before the Big Bang. But we know that something happen.
I don't understand what tales you are talking about. You are the one making tales. I use logic to prove the existence of God.

"We don't know how the Big Bang came to be" : I agree
"God did it" : Nope. God created everything doesn't mean that God made the Big bang.
"But how can you back that up with evidence?" : I use logic as evidence.
"Seriously?" Yes.
"You have again, made the claim that your god has been forever, even though time only started ticking at the start of Big Bang..." Yes
"He was passing time before time started passing?" No.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2014, 04:56:28 PM »
Then kindly requote your "evidence" for the reality of miracles, plus the definition.

In post 29, you included this in your response:

"Heaven, Hell and God are all in space and time."

Nope, you didn't come close to "destroying" anything. Where do you think you "destroyed" it?

" Something does not become that because you just say so. You have to prove it first."

Ironic.

Which tales am I making?

And now you say god didn't cause the big bang. Yet he created everything? THAT is contradictory.


I use a science called logic. You should try it sometime. It brings evidence to the existence of God.

Logic can't bring you anything outside the axioms that you started with. A consequence of using logic is that logic created this rule.

See above ^

Plus, you fail to provide evidence for how something can exist without space time for it to exist in.

You're not getting anywhere by making more claims. Your "proof" proved nothing except "We dont know what happened, but I do; a magical creature had to exist to make whatever was made, but the creature itself was never made, so he kinda just was there, but he exists without time and space, just doing things when things weren't allowed to happen, and things couldn't happen because time was not there, but he did it with magic. Whoosh."

And no, no flowers, some actual evidence would be fine. Use evidence to back up logic.

Long story short, you need something more than "Because you need a god right there". That statement prooves nothing. I can say "We need a carrot right there." It would be equally correct.



"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #142 on: May 19, 2014, 08:57:38 AM »
The definition of carrot is already taken. A carrot couldn't be always around.
There is my logic again.
Before the big bang there was no time. Ok?
Something must have started the big bang. OK?
This something must have been always around (since there was no time)
This something that started the big bang is God.
Therefore God exist.
You could have called the something "xoplu" instead of "God " But xoplu does not have a definition allowing him to be that something that started the big bang.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #143 on: May 19, 2014, 04:44:00 PM »
The definition of carrot is already taken. A carrot couldn't be always around.
There is my logic again.
Before the big bang there was no time. Ok?
Something must have started the big bang. OK?
This something must have been always around (since there was no time)
This something that started the big bang is God.
Therefore God exist.
You could have called the something "xoplu" instead of "God " But xoplu does not have a definition allowing him to be that something that started the big bang.
Provide evidence that something can exist "before" space and time were around.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Lukvance and Defiance debate existence of god, heaven and hell
« Reply #144 on: May 19, 2014, 09:24:57 PM »
Here is the proof :
Something must have started the big bang. We agreed on that already. The big bang is when the space time was created. Which means this something was there before space and time. Agreed?
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