Author Topic: How to remain Christian  (Read 3212 times)

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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2014, 04:03:16 AM »
Might I suggest; "It is morally indefensible to try and prevent two people that love each other being together. Homosexuals are born homosexual, in the same way heterosexuals are born heterosexual. There is no justifiable reason to try and prevent their happiness."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2014, 06:56:39 AM »

Hi OCG. I'm intrigued; what case did you present as opposite to the Christian view on homosexuality?

I've read the lesson.  There is more from the bible against gays than there is in accepting gays.  Like 10:6.  I would say the bible, therefore Christianity, is against gays. 

OCG do you think it is a sin to be gay or to fornicate?  If not you are against Christianity. :) Do you think prostitutes and drug dealers will go to heaven?  If not what do you think their punishment will be and where does the bible support this opinion?  What do you think God does with murders and pedophiles? 

Just curious,

JB
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2014, 07:04:13 AM »
Why do you have to put forward two specific view points i am sure they have not been so sheltered to only think in terms of xtianity OR atheism.


i don't think homosexuality implied either.


lots of homo xtians that are definitely not atheist same homo Muslims. jews atheists catholics........has zero to do with faith or lack thereof.


why present it like it does....samr your other topics.

The lesson on homosexuality dealt with a literalist vs a non-literalist interpretation of 6 "killer verses" in the Bible which specifically reference homosexuality. 

As you can imagine, the literalist interpretation condemned homosexuality based on those verses.  The non-literalist interpretation looked more into the Greek and Hebrew words and concluded the condemnation often dealt more with homosexuality as religious prostitution rather than homosexuality per se.  Where it was not dealing with religious prostitution, the argument (as I recall) was along the lines of presenting an alternate interpretation. 

The lessons on homosexuality are posted on WWGHA under the topic "Sunday School Lessons".  I posted them asking for feedback to help insure the information was seen as even handed.  I didn't want the kids thinking I was pro or anti homosexuality.  Rather, I wanted to foster discussion.  And I think I was successful.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2014, 07:30:00 AM »
Quote
Hi OCG. I'm intrigued; what case did you present as opposite to the Christian view on homosexuality?

I've read the lesson.  There is more from the bible against gays than there is in accepting gays.  Like 10:6.  I would say the bible, therefore Christianity, is against gays. 

If one is a literalist about the Bible, then it would seem one can make the argument that Christianity and Judaism are against gays.

Quote
OCG do you think it is a sin to be gay or to fornicate?  If not you are against Christianity. :)

There was a time when I held to the view homosexuality was a choice.  But, over time and experience with others, I couldn't reconcile that view with the question of why would anyone choose such a lifestyle considering all the stress family, friends and society puts on the gay person.  So, over time, I evolved from "pro-choice" to "pro-genetic".  With that conclusion, it seemed very silly to condemn a gay person just because of genetics. 

So, if that means I am against Christianity, so be it.  I don't see it that way since I am not a literalist. 

Quote
Do you think prostitutes and drug dealers will go to heaven?  If not what do you think their punishment will be and where does the bible support this opinion?  What do you think God does with murders and pedophiles? 

Just curious,

JB

I have no idea who will get into heaven and who won't.  I can't even guarantee if my theology is acceptable to God much less make a judgment on anyone else.  Such judgments are beyond my wisdom and understanding. 

Therefore, I also have no idea what happens to murderers or pedophiles after death.  That is God's problem, not mine.

Is that a cop-out on my part?  Perhaps.  I don't think so, but that is me.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 07:31:58 AM by OldChurchGuy »
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2014, 07:37:31 AM »
I seen this video posted on NoBeliefs.com, and thought the woman did a great job with it. She's an ex Christian, now an Atheist. It was first posted on Youtube on April 15th, so it's fairly new. Since I and others have been sharing it with other known Atheist's, it's views have climbed to over 8,000 in 9 days.

If you like it, pass it on to any other forums, family, friends, etc...



It would also be advised for Christians on the board to do as she suggests if you want to remain Christian.

(amend url to show video
GB Mod)


OCG this is the history I spoke of in another thread.  God does not need religion!!! God is better off w/o it, if there is a God/Gods.  People like you and me and these folks here will still help the poor.  We will not commit murder or rape.  May fornicate a little but hey ya gotta have some fun. 

You can still Love Jesus!!!  I wish your church would try an experiment and be not religious but spiritual for 1 month.  Really dig in to what that means.  You might find it brings you closer to God, IDK.

There is just way way way too much evidence that proves Abrahamic Religions as well as all others are man made.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2014, 07:46:12 AM »
Quote
I have no idea who will get into heaven and who won't.  I can't even guarantee if my theology is acceptable to God much less make a judgment on anyone else.  Such judgments are beyond my wisdom and understanding. 

Therefore, I also have no idea what happens to murderers or pedophiles after death.  That is God's problem, not mine.

Is that a cop-out on my part?  Perhaps.  I don't think so, but that is me.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

No I don't think that's a cop out.  It just seems to me it's the parts of the bible you don't take literally that makes you a good man.  What do you think that says about the bible?



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2014, 07:52:55 AM »
Hi OCG. I'm intrigued; what case did you present as opposite to the Christian view on homosexuality?



Here's the linkable OP to OCG's thread, "Sunday School Lessons":

I had a great discussion with some high schoolers in their Sunday School class this morning.  After discussing various ideas on how the Bible is interpreted I asked them what they would like to discuss next month when we meet again.  Being typical high school age people they fearlessly decided they wanted to discuss:

- Homosexuality and the Bible;

- Birth control, Abortion and the Bible. 

We are agreed the information will present the pro and con sides of the issues so we can have a better discussion and hopefully better appreciate an opposing view point even if we don't agree with it. 

I was wondering if you would recommend any books, magazine articles or websites for either of these topics?   The slant is not as important as the content.  By content, I mean well thought out ideas and, as applicable, documentation / footnotes. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2014, 08:32:45 AM »
Quote
I have no idea who will get into heaven and who won't.  I can't even guarantee if my theology is acceptable to God much less make a judgment on anyone else.  Such judgments are beyond my wisdom and understanding. 

Therefore, I also have no idea what happens to murderers or pedophiles after death.  That is God's problem, not mine.

Is that a cop-out on my part?  Perhaps.  I don't think so, but that is me.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

No I don't think that's a cop out.  It just seems to me it's the parts of the bible you don't take literally that makes you a good man.  What do you think that says about the bible?

I'm not sure, to be honest, as I see the Bible as a collection of writings written by many people over the centuries all trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  I think it says more about how people choose / want to interpret the Bible based on their personal biases. 

Who knows?  Theism may be genetic.  Wouldn't that be wild?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline eh!

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2014, 09:03:35 AM »
Theism i hypothesise is selectively bred.into. us.

for nearly all of human history all have lived under some form of religion, there was no other government .


people that did not believe in public were generally killed.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2014, 10:01:11 AM »

I'm not sure, to be honest, as I see the Bible as a collection of writings written by many people over the centuries all trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  I think it says more about how people choose / want to interpret the Bible based on their personal biases. 

Who knows?  Theism may be genetic.  Wouldn't that be wild?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I don't think Moses experienced God.  I think he experienced ego.  I think biblical authors used "god" as a way to gain power over the masses.  Now here we are, still trying to "control the masses using the name "God".

I don't think theism is genetic.  It is not the same as religious. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2014, 04:34:40 PM »
There was a time when I held to the view homosexuality was a choice.  But, over time and experience with others, I couldn't reconcile that view with the question of why would anyone choose such a lifestyle considering all the stress family, friends and society puts on the gay person.  So, over time, I evolved from "pro-choice" to "pro-genetic".  With that conclusion, it seemed very silly to condemn a gay person just because of genetics. 

That's exactly how I explained to my parents when I came out to them that being lesbian wasn't a choice or some passing fad.

I thank you sincerely for sharing this, OCG.
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Offline eh!

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2014, 04:59:55 PM »
A prominent aussie politician who is also a medical doctor and smart guy was treated medically for his gayness like it was a curable disease received massive electro shock therapy pschiatric counselling medication etc for years but he still stayed faggy.

in the end he refuted the medical position on gayness embraced his homosexuality fought criminal laws against it became a mainstream full time and long serving politician and advocate of gay rights only fairly recently retired.



He did not be gay as a personal lifestyle choice. all the torment and anguish he underwent i am sure he would have just chose chicks if he could have.
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Offline eh!

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2014, 05:03:06 PM »
DOS what about the argument that you just haven't met the right swinging dick yet?
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2014, 05:40:24 PM »
DOS what about the argument that you just haven't met the right swinging dick yet?

Not the words I would have chosen, but I get the gist of your question.

I would put it this way: I am 44 years old, and have so far yet to have my toes curled by a member of the opposite sex, whereas I have on countless occasions swooned over members of the same sex. So, statistically speaking, I think it's safe to say it ain't gonna happen. But even if it did, I would then be bi-sexual, and not a sudden card-carrying member of the heterosexual persuasion.

I would then ask the same question in response and watch them sputter a reply.

Also, to back up OAA, could you please refrain from using the word "faggy" or "faggot"? Not to sound like the PC police, but it's equivalent to throwing out the "N" word. Thanks.
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Offline eh!

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2014, 06:00:07 PM »
Point taken on terminology, no offense intended.

i defend my choice of words on cultural differences. in some cultures or more accurately sub-cultures the has no derogatory intention or power.

easy to change my wording in a broader readership as a sign of respect.

again no offense intended.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2014, 06:07:44 PM »
Point taken on terminology, no offense intended.

i defend my choice of words on cultural differences. in some cultures or more accurately sub-cultures the has no derogatory intention or power.

easy to change my wording in a broader readership as a sign of respect.

again no offense intended.

Thanks, eh!.  :)
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2014, 07:44:14 PM »


Hi OCG. I'm intrigued; what case did you present as opposite to the Christian view on homosexuality?


There is no singular Christian view on Homosexuality. It is people who don't like homosexuals who find, just like almost any non rational standpoint, Bible verses to support that view.

In fact there are some very gay friendly Christian churches with gay reverends.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2014, 08:28:17 PM »
I seen this video posted....

I "saw".  (Sorry, huge pet peeve of mine).
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2014, 10:15:02 PM »

Quote

Hi OCG. I'm intrigued; what case did you present as opposite to the Christian view on homosexuality?

I am afraid you need to go to the topic titled "Sunday School Lessons".   The system was VERY temperamental in allowing me to upload these and things have not changed. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2014, 03:09:26 AM »
Thanks OCG, I hadn't realised you'd posted a topic to ensure balance for your students.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2014, 06:43:44 PM »
I seen this video posted....

I "saw".  (Sorry, huge pet peeve of mine).

If my Mother was still alive she would have corrected me as well, along with a smack in the head.  ;D

When I first watched the video, it only had a little over 2,000 hits. Now it's at 11,364. She's very happy with the response.

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2014, 03:26:05 PM »

I'm not sure, to be honest, as I see the Bible as a collection of writings written by many people over the centuries all trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  I think it says more about how people choose / want to interpret the Bible based on their personal biases. 

Who knows?  Theism may be genetic.  Wouldn't that be wild?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I don't think Moses experienced God.  I think he experienced ego.  I think biblical authors used "god" as a way to gain power over the masses.  Now here we are, still trying to "control the masses using the name "God".

I don't think theism is genetic.  It is not the same as religious.

It seems that some people are genetically more inclined to see things in supernatural or theistic ways than others. Just like people with Asperger's have to work hard to figure out what facial expressions mean, or to understand symbolism in poetry, people like me who don't "get" theism have work hard to make sense of god-belief.

Since we atheists are the minority, it could be that we are lacking the "god gene" that most other people have. Clearly, this is not evidence that there is a real god. Just that there are lots of people who are [maybe genetically] inclined to think there is. 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2014, 04:12:16 PM »

I'm not sure, to be honest, as I see the Bible as a collection of writings written by many people over the centuries all trying to explain what it is like to experience God.  I think it says more about how people choose / want to interpret the Bible based on their personal biases. 

Who knows?  Theism may be genetic.  Wouldn't that be wild?

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I don't think Moses experienced God.  I think he experienced ego.  I think biblical authors used "god" as a way to gain power over the masses.  Now here we are, still trying to "control the masses using the name "God".

I don't think theism is genetic.  It is not the same as religious.

It seems that some people are genetically more inclined to see things in supernatural or theistic ways than others. Just like people with Asperger's have to work hard to figure out what facial expressions mean, or to understand symbolism in poetry, people like me who don't "get" theism have work hard to make sense of god-belief.

Since we atheists are the minority, it could be that we are lacking the "god gene" that most other people have. Clearly, this is not evidence that there is a real god. Just that there are lots of people who are [maybe genetically] inclined to think there is.

That's a very big maybe NoGods.  They have tried to say the same thing about being gay. 

What does it mean to you if this hypothesis is proven to be true? 

I definitely think it is more environment than it is genetic.  Kind of like peer pressure; you know?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2014, 08:14:06 PM »
If it is true that some people cannot sense god-beings, then we can't help it. We would only be lying if we said we believed in stuff that we don't. We should not be discriminated against or persecuted. This is just the way we are.

Cue appropriate Lady Gaga song.  ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2014, 07:47:23 AM »
If it is true that some people cannot sense god-beings, then we can't help it. We would only be lying if we said we believed in stuff that we don't. We should not be discriminated against or persecuted. This is just the way we are.

Cue appropriate Lady Gaga song.  ;D

I was "Born This Way". 

You should not be persecuted either way NoGods!!! >:( 

I think I might be gay because of my childhood abuse.  I don't trust a man.  I'm not sure I was born this way.  I was always a tomboy but not all tomboys are gay.  Maybe a combination of the two.  Plus I think it was because I did not want to be a servant to a man.  I was not cherished by my father like a little girl should be.  I really believe it was a combination of things.  The relationship I observed between mom and dad was not good.  My exposure to porn at such a young age did make me curious about the touch of another woman.  I met my first girlfriend right after I got pregnant with my son.  I've been gay ever since!  I felt a connection to her I had never experienced with a man.  It can only be described by the beauty of music.  la la la la la

OCG what if it is a choice for some.  Is that okay too? :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 07:50:38 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2014, 07:54:01 AM »
If it is true that some people cannot sense god-beings, then we can't help it. We would only be lying if we said we believed in stuff that we don't. We should not be discriminated against or persecuted. This is just the way we are.

Cue appropriate Lady Gaga song.  ;D

I was "Born This Way". 

You should not be persecuted either way NoGods!!! >:( 

I think I might be gay because of my childhood abuse.  I don't trust a man.  I'm not sure I was born this way.  I was always a tomboy but not all tomboys are gay.  Maybe a combination of the two.  Plus I think it was because I did not want to be a servant to a man.  I was not cherished by my father like a little girl should be.  I really believe it was a combination of things.  The relationship I observed between mom and dad was not good.  My exposure to porn at such a young age did make me curious about the touch of another woman.  I met my first girlfriend right after I got pregnant with my son.  I've been gay ever since!  I felt a connection to her I had never experienced with a man.  It can only be described by the beauty of music.  la la la la la

OCG what if it is a choice for some.  Is that okay too? :)

So far as I am concerned, it is fine. 

I suspect some people are gay due to environment and the others due to genetics.  I have no idea what the ratio is between the two.

Regardless, if you are happy in your relationship then I am happy for you.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 09:54:13 AM by OldChurchGuy »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2014, 09:10:06 AM »
If it is true that some people cannot sense god-beings, then we can't help it. We would only be lying if we said we believed in stuff that we don't. We should not be discriminated against or persecuted. This is just the way we are.

Cue appropriate Lady Gaga song.  ;D

I was "Born This Way". 

You should not be persecuted either way NoGods!!! >:( 

I think I might be gay because of my childhood abuse.  I don't trust a man.  I'm not sure I was born this way.  I was always a tomboy but not all tomboys are gay.  Maybe a combination of the two.  Plus I think it was because I did not want to be a servant to a man.  I was not cherished by my father like a little girl should be.  I really believe it was a combination of things.  The relationship I observed between mom and dad was not good.  My exposure to porn at such a young age did make me curious about the touch of another woman.  I met my first girlfriend right after I got pregnant with my son.  I've been gay ever since!  I felt a connection to her I had never experienced with a man.  It can only be described by the beauty of music.  la la la la la

OCG what if it is a choice for some.  Is that okay too? :)

So far as I am concerned, it is fine. 

I suspect some people are gay due to environment and the others due to genetics.  I have no idea what the ratio is between the two.

Regardless, if you are happy in your relationship than I am happy for you.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

This is exactly the answer I expected from you.  Thanks.  I am happy with being gay.  Sometimes I wonder if I am with the right person.  I'm sure that happens to all couples. 

The thing is it's just not Christian to be gay.  The religion has changed some but the bible has not. 

I'm going to have to admit that I have anger issues with religion.  I try to be empathetic and then a Christian says something stupid and my anger comes right back.  Like Joel Olsteen saying being gay is a sin. >:(  I quit following him on FB because of.  That comment by Phil Robertson, ugh.  The list goes on and on.


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2014, 12:31:54 PM »
I'm going to have to admit that I have anger issues with religion.  I try to be empathetic and then a Christian says something stupid and my anger comes right back.  Like Joel Olsteen saying being gay is a sin. >:(  I quit following him on FB because of.  That comment by Phil Robertson, ugh.  The list goes on and on.

I can honestly say I know exactly how you are feeling, junebug. It wasn't long ago when I could not even discuss the topic of religion with a Christian without resorting to anger, scorn and contempt. The strange this was that my reaction had nothing to do with my being a lesbian... I have been extremely fortunate to have the love and support of my family and have never personally been the subject of anti-gay sentiment stemming from religious doctrine. It was more a result of seeing the negative, destructive effect Christianity (and their non-supportive, Christian friends and family members) were having on those of my GLBT friends struggling and trying to come to terms with their own issues.

It took me a while, but nowadays I have learned to (with the exception of wastes of oxygen like the Phelps clan) "love the sinner Christian, hate the sin archaic, judgmental, and ofttimes barbaric belief system they adhere to".

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I think I might be gay because of my childhood abuse. I don't trust a man.  I'm not sure I was born this way.  I was always a tomboy but not all tomboys are gay.  Maybe a combination of the two.  Plus I think it was because I did not want to be a servant to a man.  I was not cherished by my father like a little girl should be.  I really believe it was a combination of things.  The relationship I observed between mom and dad was not good


I am so, so sorry to hear about your abuse. Nothing is more abhorrent in my eyes than causing harm to a child.

I also want to add that I can understand and sympathize with how you came to distrust men based on how you were treated at the hands of the one man who should have been your greatest protector and source of feeling loved in this world. I know it may be difficult sometimes, but try not to allow whomever abused you cause you to place all men in a similar light.

In regards to why you are, or feel you are gay, I do not feel it would be right for me to speculate. I have my own feelings on the nature vs. nurture debate, but either way as long as you are being true to yourself, that's all that really matters.

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I met my first girlfriend right after I got pregnant with my son.  I've been gay ever since! I felt a connection to her I had never experienced with a man.

I hope the two of you continue to have true happiness together. :)

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

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Re: How to remain Christian
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2014, 02:34:26 PM »
Whether born "that way" or not, the people who think it is wrong to be gay will still find a way to discriminate. Haters gonna hate, as the kids say. Since social pressure has started to lift and gays are becoming more accepted, anti-gay people are having to face up to what it is they are really afraid of.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.