Author Topic: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"  (Read 837 times)

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Offline Ataraxia

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"Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« on: April 24, 2014, 04:16:12 AM »
This is what my Muslim ex-next door neighbour said to me after I asked whether he would kill his kids if he knew, unequivocally, that it was god telling him to. I replied by telling him that he was a fucking, disgusting disgrace.

I'm really sad about it actually, because we grew up together as kids - played together, joked together, went to school together and stuff. Now when I see him from time to time when visiting my parents, we'll have a catch up and general chit-chat, but sometimes religion will come up. We have a bit of banter about it but it never really gets serious.... but this time it did. It got deep and I started to get riled up by some of the absolute shit I didn't realise he believed in. He was getting himself all het up too, as I was probing him and "insulting Mohammed", simply by not saying "peace be upon him" after mentioning his name.
As the discussion progressed, it filtered to the point where I asked him this question. With the way the conversation had gone, the answer didn't surprise me, but it still shocked me. I didn't feel like I had a response in me, apart from telling him he was a disgusting prick, and now I feel like I don't ever want to speak to him anymore about anything, never mind religion. I don't see how you can reason with such people, people who surrender all of their reasonable faculties that get them through each day, for a belief that is absolute poison and potentially lethal.

Has anybody had a similar encounter they can relate to, and how, if it all, can you see such an issue being resolved?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2014, 04:46:21 AM »
I've never met such people IRL. At least I think I haven't. However, I have met JW's, who would rather let their kids die than give them a blood transfusion, so there's that. One of my homosexual friends is a JW, and it has messed him up severely. He feels like, and I quote, "a two-faced monster".
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Offline eh!

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2014, 04:51:49 AM »
Never met anyone that extreme such a shame to lose that much history in your life tho. I don't know a single person i knew as a kid all dead or just disappeared.

hope you can somehow find a way, it is only ideas that come between. you....so far.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 07:38:58 AM »
This is what my Muslim ex-next door neighbour said to me after I asked whether he would kill his kids if he knew, unequivocally, that it was god telling him to. I replied by telling him that he was a fucking, disgusting disgrace.

I'm really sad about it actually, because we grew up together as kids - played together, joked together, went to school together and stuff. Now when I see him from time to time when visiting my parents, we'll have a catch up and general chit-chat, but sometimes religion will come up. We have a bit of banter about it but it never really gets serious.... but this time it did. It got deep and I started to get riled up by some of the absolute shit I didn't realise he believed in. He was getting himself all het up too, as I was probing him and "insulting Mohammed", simply by not saying "peace be upon him" after mentioning his name.
As the discussion progressed, it filtered to the point where I asked him this question. With the way the conversation had gone, the answer didn't surprise me, but it still shocked me. I didn't feel like I had a response in me, apart from telling him he was a disgusting prick, and now I feel like I don't ever want to speak to him anymore about anything, never mind religion. I don't see how you can reason with such people, people who surrender all of their reasonable faculties that get them through each day, for a belief that is absolute poison and potentially lethal.

Has anybody had a similar encounter they can relate to, and how, if it all, can you see such an issue being resolved?

Well If I knew "KNEW it was god telling me to do so and KNEW god was as described.  I guess I most certainly would do it.  I would defer to the all knowing all powerful being that was out for the good of mankind.  I would accept that my limited knowledge and defer to God. 

If allowed, I would have to ask why, and what would happen to my child. 

In a bible world where the bible is proven absolute fact,  where life is everlasting, death is a doorway to everlasting joy. I am not sure I really see a downside to killing.  Cutting short a life to give them everlasting joy and save them the suffering here on earth would seem like a tiny penalty.  Akin to heart operation.   

Would you object to removing cancer from a child to give them a full life.  Even though the operation will create short term suffering?  Would you suffer your child an antibiotic injection to avoid creating short term pain to allow them to live a comfortable remainder of their years.  Life is less than a blink of the eye when thinking of eternity.

In a world where the bible is absolute fact, I would absolutely kill the kid?  Why shouldn't I? 

Pro:
Kid enjoys everlasting life
kid does not need to suffer pains of life.
kid enjoys everlasting extacy (and need not wait)
Gods good plan is executed to the betterment of humanity and the universe.

Con:
kid does not get to enjoy the blink of existence we call life. (irrelevant in the grand scheme)
kid does not get to enjoy the minor joys of living out life. (irrelevant as the alternative is better)
I will feel sad that I no longer can enjoy the kids presence in my life. (not a good reason to disobey god, it would be selfish to use this as a reason)

In a world where bible is absolute fact I have to obey god.  Who would I be to question an all knowing, all benevolent, all powerful god?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 07:48:01 AM »
In a world where bible is absolute fact I have to obey god.  Who would I be to question an all knowing, all benevolent, all powerful god?

I find this interesting. Is it all benevolent to kill a person who is not suffering? Is it all benevolent to order a parent to kill a child when presumably the all powerful god could do it it's self?

Offline epidemic

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2014, 08:00:04 AM »
In a world where bible is absolute fact I have to obey god.  Who would I be to question an all knowing, all benevolent, all powerful god?

I find this interesting. Is it all benevolent to kill a person who is not suffering? Is it all benevolent to order a parent to kill a child when presumably the all powerful god could do it it's self?

Why wouldn't it be?  letting someone live is actually kinda the crime here.  If you want to fault god it is the delay life causes in reaching your reward.

Again would you give your son a vaccination to avoid a killer flu pandemic that was running around killing 100% of people?  Giving the shot is painful and scary and makes the kid unhappy.  But the reason you give the shot is so he can continue living a happy healty life.

In a real bible world that kid receives a happy eternal "life" for a little discomfort.

In a bible world your suffering is life when compared with heaven.  Another way of looking at this, the way heaven is described do you think your kid would ever choose to come back to the shitty existence we call life? 

after the killer flu pandemic came around and the kid saw all his dead countrymen, would he go back in time and avoid getting the shot or would he choose to live with his friends and family who all had the shot???
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 08:03:47 AM by epidemic »

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 08:57:40 AM »
Well If I knew "KNEW it was god telling me to do so and KNEW god was as described.  I guess I most certainly would do it.  I would defer to the all knowing all powerful being that was out for the good of mankind.  I would accept that my limited knowledge and defer to God.

The issue here is knowing it was god. To know it was god, you'd have to be all knowing too to not have to believe it was god and put faith in his all knowing ability.

Quote
If allowed, I would have to ask why, and what would happen to my child.

So to follow, if you knew it was god, then you'd already know what would happen to your child. You would also know god was going to ask you to do this before he asked you, so god doesn't need to ask you. As a consequence, you wouldn't have the freedom to choose to do it or not do it anyway, as that would impinge on your all knowingness.

The problem with being a know all like god is that you know everything god is going to do, has done and will do. Due to this and your inability to freely choose to do anything, you would also be all benevolent and unable to do anything that deviated from it. Also, his powers cannot break the limits of your knowledge. So, in effect, you would be god yourself.

Quote
In a bible world where the bible is proven absolute fact,  where life is everlasting, death is a doorway to everlasting joy. I am not sure I really see a downside to killing.  Cutting short a life to give them everlasting joy and save them the suffering here on earth would seem like a tiny penalty.  Akin to heart operation.

What has the Bible got to do with this, btw? If you read the OP, this discussion was with a Muslim.

Anyway, in this world, nothing is a downside as everything leads to this "everlasting joy". This means morality vanishes due to only good stuff happening, and therefore the term "all benevolent" becomes meaningless.

Quote
Would you object to removing cancer from a child to give them a full life.  Even though the operation will create short term suffering?  Would you suffer your child an antibiotic injection to avoid creating short term pain to allow them to live a comfortable remainder of their years.  Life is less than a blink of the eye when thinking of eternity.

This doesn't work as an analogy because we are having to remove the idea that we know this "everlasting joy" exists and therefore our concept of morality too.

If I'm going to answer this void of that, then yes, I would do it because it means they get to live longer in the only existence I know they're going to have.

Quote
In a world where the bible is absolute fact, I would absolutely kill the kid?  Why shouldn't I?

Again with the Bible.....

Anyway, as I've explained, you would because you have no choice. 

Quote
Pro:
Kid enjoys everlasting life
kid does not need to suffer pains of life.
kid enjoys everlasting extacy (and need not wait)
Gods good plan is executed to the betterment of humanity and the universe.

Con:
kid does not get to enjoy the blink of existence we call life. (irrelevant in the grand scheme)
kid does not get to enjoy the minor joys of living out life. (irrelevant as the alternative is better)
I will feel sad that I no longer can enjoy the kids presence in my life. (not a good reason to disobey god, it would be selfish to use this as a reason)

There are no pro's and con's. Everything is neutral and amoral.

Quote
In a world where bible is absolute fact I have to obey god.  Who would I be to question an all knowing, all benevolent, all powerful god?

Seriously, enough with the Bible. I don't know why you seem to have jumped to it by default....

You wouldn't be one to question god because you wouldn't need to question god, as for you to know it is god rather than just believe it is god, you'd have to be all knowing too, as that is one of his attributes. And as it goes, god wouldn't need to question you either because of this, so as an overall conclusion, god wouldn't ask you to kill your own kids.

Perhaps I should say similar to my ex-neighbour....
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2014, 09:29:44 AM »
If there is a god, I wouldn't even kill a complete stranger on his orders. I'd tell him to strike me dead, after first suggesting that he go find one of his obedient minions to power trip with.

Not in those exact words, however. And I left out the hand gesture too.  ;)
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2014, 09:43:21 AM »
If there is a god, I wouldn't even kill a complete stranger on his orders. I'd tell him to strike me dead, after first suggesting that he go find one of his obedient minions to power trip with.

Not in those exact words, however. And I left out the hand gesture too.  ;)

Yes, the prompt response would be to tell him to go fuck himself. If he wants people dead then he can do it himself, and if he responds by stating that I need to do it, then it's not a case of needing people dead, but of me needing to kill. No, even if the answer is god is all good, then I'm happy to be a morally reprehensible prick because I won't kill my kids.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2014, 09:53:10 AM »

Why wouldn't it be?  letting someone live is actually kinda the crime here.  If you want to fault god it is the delay life causes in reaching your reward.

Again would you give your son a vaccination to avoid a killer flu pandemic that was running around killing 100% of people?  Giving the shot is painful and scary and makes the kid unhappy.  But the reason you give the shot is so he can continue living a happy healty life.

In a real bible world that kid receives a happy eternal "life" for a little discomfort.

In a bible world your suffering is life when compared with heaven.  Another way of looking at this, the way heaven is described do you think your kid would ever choose to come back to the shitty existence we call life? 

after the killer flu pandemic came around and the kid saw all his dead countrymen, would he go back in time and avoid getting the shot or would he choose to live with his friends and family who all had the shot???

This is all well and good assuming that heaven awaits. If not it's a fast track to something that may be considerably worse than life.

There is also the question of why must there be any discomfort at all if god is all benevolent and all powerful?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:13:41 AM by Mrjason »

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2014, 10:32:02 AM »
This is what my Muslim ex-next door neighbour said to me after I asked whether he would kill his kids if he knew, unequivocally, that it was god telling him to. I replied by telling him that he was a fucking, disgusting disgrace.

I'm really sad about it actually, because we grew up together as kids - played together, joked together, went to school together and stuff. Now when I see him from time to time when visiting my parents, we'll have a catch up and general chit-chat, but sometimes religion will come up. We have a bit of banter about it but it never really gets serious.... but this time it did. It got deep and I started to get riled up by some of the absolute shit I didn't realise he believed in. He was getting himself all het up too, as I was probing him and "insulting Mohammed", simply by not saying "peace be upon him" after mentioning his name.
As the discussion progressed, it filtered to the point where I asked him this question. With the way the conversation had gone, the answer didn't surprise me, but it still shocked me. I didn't feel like I had a response in me, apart from telling him he was a disgusting prick, and now I feel like I don't ever want to speak to him anymore about anything, never mind religion. I don't see how you can reason with such people, people who surrender all of their reasonable faculties that get them through each day, for a belief that is absolute poison and potentially lethal.

Has anybody had a similar encounter they can relate to, and how, if it all, can you see such an issue being resolved?

If by "resolved" you mean he embraces your viewpoint, then it will probably not be resolved.  My guess is he is operating from a basis or faith and probably remembering the story of Abraham and Isaac in Genesis where God asks Abe to sacrifice his son.  Abe is reluctant but agrees to do it.  And, as you probably know, just as he is about to bring the knife down on Isaac an angel appears and tells him to stop.  Nearby is a ram caught in a bush and the ram is sacrificed instead. 

I remember hearing this story growing up and thinking there is no way I would have that much faith.  I still think that, by the way.

In our day and time, we see a person who sacrifices anyone due to God telling them it is OK as having severe mental / emotional problems.  I am NOT saying this person has sever mental / emotional problems as it is one thing to say such a statement; quite another to actually carry out the deed. 

If you value his friendship, consider a truce to refrain from discussing religion with him.  Alternately, perhaps you can agree not to tell the other one how or what to believe but both are free to ask questions. 

I get the impression this exchange struck a nerve with you.  Any idea what nerve was struck and why?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 10:57:37 AM »
I get the impression this exchange struck a nerve with you.  Any idea what nerve was struck and why?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

[butting in]
I know that, were I to have a similar conversation, I would be *deathly afraid*.  If someone declares a willingness to kill his own children at the behest of his deity, how much easier would it be for him to kill MINE?  particularly since he's been offended by my lack of PBUH when speaking his prophet's name, clearly marking me (and mine) as infidel and heretic, and thus a valid target for Jihad?

I would seriously consider moving, out of fear for my family.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2014, 11:09:48 AM »
Not nearly or remotely as severe, but I came across a high school friend on Facebook. He was a little bit snotty in his 'more intellectual punk than thou' attitude in the Catholic high school I went to...but we did get along quite well. His Facebook was about his involvement in the Church, his Mercedes, and his kids. We no longer had anything in common except history.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline natlegend

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2014, 06:57:50 PM »
[butting in]
I know that, were I to have a similar conversation, I would be *deathly afraid*.  If someone declares a willingness to kill his own children at the behest of his deity, how much easier would it be for him to kill MINE?  particularly since he's been offended by my lack of PBUH when speaking his prophet's name, clearly marking me (and mine) as infidel and heretic, and thus a valid target for Jihad?

I would seriously consider moving, out of fear for my family.

Wow, I hadn't even considered that. You are so right, one word from this guy's god and BAM! It could be me or mine that are dead.

This is what makes fundamentalism so frikkin dangerous.
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2014, 01:48:24 AM »
[butting in]
I know that, were I to have a similar conversation, I would be *deathly afraid*.  If someone declares a willingness to kill his own children at the behest of his deity, how much easier would it be for him to kill MINE?  particularly since he's been offended by my lack of PBUH when speaking his prophet's name, clearly marking me (and mine) as infidel and heretic, and thus a valid target for Jihad?

I would seriously consider moving, out of fear for my family.

Wow, I hadn't even considered that. You are so right, one word from this guy's god and BAM! It could be me or mine that are dead.

This is what makes fundamentalism so frikkin dangerous.

I asked a question on a previous thread about this, don't recall getting any reply from a theist;

Something like - 'Theists; would you feel safer having your children babysat by a religious believer, when that religion had a history of their god asking followers to kill children, or would you prefer an atheist to babysit?'
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2014, 02:00:21 AM »
If by "resolved" you mean he embraces your viewpoint, then it will probably not be resolved.

No, not embrace my viewpoint as such. If anything, the problem here is mine - I'm the one trying to reconcile how I can ever have a one on one with this guy again. His view is just so outlandish and dangerous, that in a sense, I don't want to resolve it.

Quote
My guess is he is operating from a basis or faith and probably remembering the story of Abraham and Isaac in Genesis where God asks Abe to sacrifice his son.  Abe is reluctant but agrees to do it.  And, as you probably know, just as he is about to bring the knife down on Isaac an angel appears and tells him to stop.  Nearby is a ram caught in a bush and the ram is sacrificed instead.

Yes, I thought this could be one factor too.
 
Quote
I remember hearing this story growing up and thinking there is no way I would have that much faith.  I still think that, by the way.

Kinda goes against the idea that faith is a virtue, don't you think?

Quote
In our day and time, we see a person who sacrifices anyone due to God telling them it is OK as having severe mental / emotional problems.  I am NOT saying this person has sever mental / emotional problems as it is one thing to say such a statement; quite another to actually carry out the deed.

A good point, and a comment there I only thought to say to him after the horse had bolted (that if he gave that reason for killing someone he'd probably be sectioned).
Ignoring that I don't believe there is a god to tell him to kill his kids, I don't think he would carry it out if it came to it, but I don't think that's the point.

Quote
If you value his friendship, consider a truce to refrain from discussing religion with him.  Alternately, perhaps you can agree not to tell the other one how or what to believe but both are free to ask questions.

It's not really a friendship I have with him anymore. I only ever see him fleetingly when I go to visit my parents, and normally we just let on to each other, ask how each other are doing etc. If religion is ever brought up, it's brought up by him, normally with him asking if I'd read the Quran this week in a jovial manner. We've always just laughed about it on other occassions. May be on this day he got out of bed the wrong side, I don't know.

Quote
I get the impression this exchange struck a nerve with you.  Any idea what nerve was struck and why?

I urge anyone to not have their nerve struck by someone telling you that they would kill their own children. The exchange itself didn't strike a nerve, but it escalated to this point where he would kill for his god. As Boots has quite rightly pointed out, if he's willing to kill his kids, then he's willing to kill you, your kids, and anybody else for that matter. It's an in your face, point blank, smack in the mouth dangerous ideology, regardless of whether if faced with the scenario, he'd actually carry it out or not.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2014, 02:12:04 AM »
I get the impression this exchange struck a nerve with you.  Any idea what nerve was struck and why?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

[butting in]
I know that, were I to have a similar conversation, I would be *deathly afraid*.  If someone declares a willingness to kill his own children at the behest of his deity, how much easier would it be for him to kill MINE?  particularly since he's been offended by my lack of PBUH when speaking his prophet's name, clearly marking me (and mine) as infidel and heretic, and thus a valid target for Jihad?

I would seriously consider moving, out of fear for my family.

Ah, if only life was that easy. :)

Nah, I already have moved, it's my parents that still live next door to him and his family. One reason I found this shocking is that they are a lovely family who are well integrated. The dad, who prefers to be called Colin, would do anything for you - help you lay your patio and dig up your garden, follow you to the garage and drive you home, then drive you back again to pick your car up. All sorts of stuff. We've been invited to their weddings and every year at Eid/Ramadan they'd come over with lashings of food which would last us days. It's a reason why I'm sad about it, because I don't think this idea this one son has has come from his family, but whoever has got their claws into him at his mosque.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2014, 08:20:59 AM »
As disturbed and disgusted as I am hearing any theist state that they would kill their own children (or anyone else, for that matter) at their God's command, I'd rather have them be up front about it so I would know who to avoid like the plague. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I wonder, though... has epidemic or any other theist who shares his view already clued their kids in that should the loving, benevolent God they have been indoctrinated in to believing gives the say so, daddy would obediently (if regretfully) end their lives? Honesty is the best policy, after all.

Maybe if they did, we'd see a hell of a lot more youngsters drop religion like a bad habit.
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Offline Jag

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2014, 01:20:49 PM »
>snip<
then it's not a case of needing people dead, but of me needing to kill

An important distinction, that. You'd think more people would notice it, but the Abraham story set the precedent and few people see the fundamental problem.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 02:05:40 PM »
Well If I knew "KNEW it was god telling me to do so and KNEW god was as described.  I guess I most certainly would do it.  I would defer to the all knowing all powerful being that was out for the good of mankind.  I would accept that my limited knowledge and defer to God.

The issue here is knowing it was god. To know it was god, you'd have to be all knowing too to not have to believe it was god and put faith in his all knowing ability.


My metric for knowing would be the same that I use for anything else I know.  I would not require omniscience.  Merely observable evidence.  Like seeing god, observing his miracles, chatting with the guy and a reasonable believe I was not insane for the aformentioned.  perhaps a communally observance that everyone sees this same evidence would be good enough for me.

Now knowing that god is as stated I would do what he told me.  It is a tall order for me to believe so I am not likely to go around killin my kids anytime soon.  But in the place where I absolutely believe I can't see a downside to killing the kid.

As for explaining why god lets bad thing happen in life.  In my day to day conversations with god leading up to the request I probably would ask such questions.  after the request i would ask what was going to happen to the kid.  If eternal heavenly blisss was the answer vs life's trials i still don't see the downside beyond my loss of interaction with the my child. 

Your deeper  question of would morals be irrelevant in such a world???  I don't see that.  A world where you are not allowed to kill, or hurt people unless instructed by god morals are there and there are guidelines for following the morals. 

So for my belief.

1) A bible that can not be falsified, anytime anyone makes an attempt to mistakenly edit it, it autocorrects before your eyes.  If intentional and with malice the words explode killing the false prophet:)
2) People who are not in keeping with the bible live markedly worse lives of greater suffering
3) People who sin turn green with purple polkadots and when they come back in line with the bible turn back to original colors.
4) People pray in any other religion and their limbs don't grow back, but when they pray in keeping with the auto correct bible a new eye spawns on the spot.
5) a bible that anyone can read regardless of language , age... can do so and understand the meaning of each passage.
6) Regular Personal visit from god.
7) Regular miracles.
8) stuff like that

Offline epidemic

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 02:16:30 PM »
As disturbed and disgusted as I am hearing any theist state that they would kill their own children (or anyone else, for that matter) at their God's command, I'd rather have them be up front about it so I would know who to avoid like the plague. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I wonder, though... has epidemic or any other theist who shares his view already clued their kids in that should the loving, benevolent God they have been indoctrinated in to believing gives the say so, daddy would obediently (if regretfully) end their lives? Honesty is the best policy, after all.

Maybe if they did, we'd see a hell of a lot more youngsters drop religion like a bad habit.

I am absolutely not a theist.  But faced with incontrovertable fact, in a world where evidence abounded I would say that the kids would probably be in on it.  Tommy do you want to live out your existence on the crummy rock, or go to heaven and enjoy all that is enjoyable for all eternity i think that there is proof that they would be all in.   In the world I describe there would be no question that you were going somewhere better.  People through out history have sacrificed themselves with a helluva lot less proof with a much weaker state of knowing than I described above.

PS folks around here like to call anyone who does not believe what they do "theists" in my case you are wronggggggg!  My comments were written as if I were hypothetically a theist.  Since my list of proofs are not likely to ever come true I think you and my kids are safe.

Offline jtk73

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 02:25:57 PM »
My metric for knowing would be the same that I use for anything else I know.  I would not require omniscience.  Merely observable evidence.  Like seeing god, observing his miracles, chatting with the guy and a reasonable believe I was not insane for the aformentioned.  perhaps a communally observance that everyone sees this same evidence would be good enough for me.

If you were not all knowing, how would you ever determine that the 'Yahweh' that was speaking to you was not some trickster-type god or an advanced alien species and that the promises of eternal bliss in heaven were not a complete lie?

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2014, 02:46:58 PM »
I am absolutely not a theist. <snip>

PS folks around here like to call anyone who does not believe what they do "theists" in my case you are wronggggggg!  My comments were written as if I were hypothetically a theist.  Since my list of proofs are not likely to ever come true I think you and my kids are safe.

I apologize for mixing you in with those theists (a blanket term I will use to cover all religions that believe in an afterlife) who do subscribe to the mindset at described in the OP.

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But faced with incontrovertable fact, in a world where evidence abounded I would say that the kids would probably be in on it.  Tommy do you want to live out your existence on the crummy rock, or go to heaven and enjoy all that is enjoyable for all eternity i think that there is proof that they would be all in.   In the world I describe there would be no question that you were going somewhere better.

Hypothetically, what if the kids are not convinced/do not wish to take you at your word or flat out state that they don't want to die? Sorry, Tommy. You don't have a say in the matter when God's will is involved?

The question I would still like actual theists to answer is when they would feel compelled to share this viewpoint in advance with their loved ones, or would they keep it to themselves until the time came (if ever) for them to act upon God's command to kill them?

I am sure they will come up will all sorts of excuses as to why they would keep their personal level of devotion to their God to themselves (wouldn't want to unnecessarily worry the kids for something that most probably would never happen). 

Personally, I think the kids should be told so that they can make up their own minds as to whether or not they still want to belong to a religion where they have no say in the matter should their God wish them dead at their parent's hands vice versa.

Have to run to work. Will check back later.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 03:27:43 PM »
I agree that there are god-believers who would do anything, even kill children, if they thought is was god telling them to do it. My father was one of them; the fact that I am here is due, at least in part, to my terrified mother packing us all in the car and driving us across the country to live in a different state.

The question of how to know it is really god is so very important. The assumption that "I would just know--god would be so awesome" is not good enough. People are fooled by con artists, cult leaders, false prophets, hallucinations, etc. every day. Suicide bombers think they will instantly go to paradise--they are the ultimate true believers. Other members of their faith treat them as heroic martyrs who really put their faith on the line. There are religious groups that celebrate Abraham's willingness to kill his child as the ideal model of unquestioning, unwavering faith.

People, hearing god's voice talking, and trying to be as faithful as Abe, have sold their homes, have given away all their money, have gone on missions to dangerous places, have left their families to live in a religious commune, have picketed funerals, have refused medical care and died, have burned people to death, have blown up medical centers, have committed mass suicide, and yes, have killed their own children aged 3, 6 and 9. 

People have done all of those things in recent memory. Not only ignorant isolated primitive people, or people with severe mental problems. People in modern cities with access to the internet, literacy and at minimum, the critical thinking skills a) to not walk out into highway traffic; b) to dress properly for the weather; and c) to be able to tell that the Harry Potter movies are not a documentary series. They all thought that god was telling them to do what they did, and believed.

This is extremely dangerous thinking for those of us who understand that this life is all we get. What gives me hope is the increasing visibility of the atheist perspective, and the existence of web sites like this one where our questions and comments chip away, little by little at the rock-solid faith of true believers.

That, and the fact that most religious people are not crazy, and act pretty much like us atheists when it comes right down to it.... :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 01:59:47 AM »
My metric for knowing would be the same that I use for anything else I know.  I would not require omniscience.  Merely observable evidence.  Like seeing god, observing his miracles, chatting with the guy and a reasonable believe I was not insane for the aformentioned.  perhaps a communally observance that everyone sees this same evidence would be good enough for me.

1. We're constantly told that god is immaterial, so if you saw something you thought was god, you'd be wrong because it couldn't be god.
2. We're constantly told god is the creator of all things so therefore everything is a miracle, which turns the term 'miracle' meaningless.
3. Due in part to 2. there can't be evidence either because everything has god as the root cause. In the same way that the 'term' miracle becomes menaingless, so does evidence.
4. We're constantly told that god is defined as omniscient, which means that for you to know that it was a god commanding you to do something, you would first have to be able to recognise that it was god. To be able to recognise that it was god, you would have to be able to confirm what he knows, and since what he knows is everything there is to know, that means being able to confirm everything there is to know. If you can't do this, the best you can do is believe it is god by putting faith in his omniscience.

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Now knowing that god is as stated I would do what he told me.  It is a tall order for me to believe so I am not likely to go around killin my kids anytime soon.  But in the place where I absolutely believe I can't see a downside to killing the kid.

As for explaining why god lets bad thing happen in life.  In my day to day conversations with god leading up to the request I probably would ask such questions.  after the request i would ask what was going to happen to the kid.  If eternal heavenly blisss was the answer vs life's trials i still don't see the downside beyond my loss of interaction with the my child.

This is just a restating of what you said originally, which I addressed earlier. 

Quote
Your deeper  question of would morals be irrelevant in such a world???  I don't see that.  A world where you are not allowed to kill, or hurt people unless instructed by god morals are there and there are guidelines for following the morals.

But you've created a world here where there are no downsides - there is nothing that doesn't lead to good, so there is nothing that isn't good.  How can you make a moral assessment in such a world? Jus like everything being a miracle, everything is moral, so the term just disappears up its own arse and becomes meaningless.

Quote
So for my belief.

1) A bible that can not be falsified, anytime anyone makes an attempt to mistakenly edit it, it autocorrects before your eyes.  If intentional and with malice the words explode killing the false prophet:)
2) People who are not in keeping with the bible live markedly worse lives of greater suffering
3) People who sin turn green with purple polkadots and when they come back in line with the bible turn back to original colors.
4) People pray in any other religion and their limbs don't grow back, but when they pray in keeping with the auto correct bible a new eye spawns on the spot.
5) a bible that anyone can read regardless of language , age... can do so and understand the meaning of each passage.
6) Regular Personal visit from god.
7) Regular miracles.
8) stuff like that

I'd say your 7) covers them all, but then 7) covers everything anyway because, as I've said, everything is a miracle if god is the creator of everything.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Mrjason

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 05:11:07 AM »
<snip>So for my belief.

1) A bible that can not be falsified, anytime anyone makes an attempt to mistakenly edit it, it autocorrects before your eyes.  If intentional and with malice the words explode killing the false prophet:)
2) People who are not in keeping with the bible live markedly worse lives of greater suffering
3) People who sin turn green with purple polkadots and when they come back in line with the bible turn back to original colors.
4) People pray in any other religion and their limbs don't grow back, but when they pray in keeping with the auto correct bible a new eye spawns on the spot.
5) a bible that anyone can read regardless of language , age... can do so and understand the meaning of each passage.
6) Regular Personal visit from god.
7) Regular miracles.
8) stuff like that

I bet everything on this list could be replicated with sufficiently advanced technology

Offline epidemic

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2014, 09:10:16 AM »
<snip>So for my belief.

1) A bible that can not be falsified, anytime anyone makes an attempt to mistakenly edit it, it autocorrects before your eyes.  If intentional and with malice the words explode killing the false prophet:)
2) People who are not in keeping with the bible live markedly worse lives of greater suffering
3) People who sin turn green with purple polkadots and when they come back in line with the bible turn back to original colors.
4) People pray in any other religion and their limbs don't grow back, but when they pray in keeping with the auto correct bible a new eye spawns on the spot.
5) a bible that anyone can read regardless of language , age... can do so and understand the meaning of each passage.
6) Regular Personal visit from god.
7) Regular miracles.
8) stuff like that

I bet everything on this list could be replicated with sufficiently advanced technology

By that metric I guess in theory anything is possible with sufficient technology.  Depends on what you consider technology.  God uses God Technology to create universes and life. 

It is also possible that you and I are not having this conversation, We are just the  imagination of an entity I will call bob.  Bob is an intellect living in a void, due to his isolation he has developed an elaborate story called you me and everything.  He imagines our every thought and not even he knows he is doing it.  His reality is the imagined universe and beyond and down to the position of every atom, electron, photon, quark and neutrino.

You are right by my definition some super being could fool me.  But if some super being fools me to that level I may  well follow his demands to the letter.

I know it is scary because some people simply have faith based upon 3rd hand miracles observed by a friend of a friend who is long dead, who told a writer now long dead who recorded it in a dead language having been transcribed and retold through history until now a 2000 year old manuscript is taken as gospel.


Offline Mrjason

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 10:40:58 AM »
By that metric I guess in theory anything is possible with sufficient technology.  Depends on what you consider technology.  God uses God Technology to create universes and life

I agree. To an extent. I disagree with the capital "G"

You are right by my definition some super being could fool me.  But if some super being fools me to that level I may  well follow his demands to the letter.


The subtle difference would be that this technologically advanced super being would not be the god that humans know and love. It would be something entirely beyond our experience.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: "Yes, I'd kill my kids if god told me to"
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 08:02:53 PM »
If this being is an all-powerful god, it can accomplish whatever goals it has without you killing your child. Period. Or else it is not all powerful.

So, any being that wants you to kill your child is not a god. And, if the super being is not really a god, but just something unknown with highly advanced technology, you have to get rid of the assumption that the super being is good. Anyone who wants you to kill your child, knowing anything about earthly morality and how people feel about their children, is not in any way good. Only fanatical cult-like religious belief could get away with approving of sh!t like this.  If something is not good, according to a basic earthly human definition of good, it is not good![1]

This being wants you to violate your own sense of morality and goodness. Why would you think it has your best interests in mind when it tells you to something you think is horrible and bad? Why believe its promise that the child will go to paradise or live forever? All you know for sure is that it a) wants your child dead, and it b) wants you to do it. And this being knows that killing your child is something that you do not think is right.
 
At that point, how is the super being any different from your everyday psycho running a concentration camp? The secular equivalent of fanatical religious belief is something like a totalitarian dictatorship.  Some system that brainwashes people into committing atrocities with knee-jerk unquestioning obedience a la Pol Pot is clearly seen by every observer as bad, bad, bad. And then that same observer will read the Abraham story and say, yeah, what wonderful faith in god he had! Yech.  :P
 1. And way more than "a bit not good", for you Sherlock fans.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.