Author Topic: Interesting website [#710]  (Read 553 times)

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Offline DL

Interesting website [#710]
« on: November 22, 2008, 10:06:14 PM »
I can understand why you are so concerned to refute the notion of a 'soul'
and that when we die there is no further incarnations and that people are
deluded in to thinking that god, allah santa etc exist, and use
justification to prove their existence beyond that of other faiths. Is this
not what science does too? Does the whole financial economy not exist on
this basis too, using media to reinforce the 'sense of reality' (3D) that we
live in.  Would I be right in saying that what you are trying to do on your
website, is trying to show how people are deluded.  Would you consider
yourself to be deluded? When you say 'god does not exist, nor allah, nor
santa, I would agree.   Every last one of us is mad, because we believe
things exist, and our views are totally rediculous!  You then go on to
mention what the definition of a delusion is.  Surely then, all scientific
evidence is a delusion, because it is made up by men or women who are trying
to prove or disprove a point by using evidence they have seen with 'their
own eyes' and tested their hypotheses with 'evidence' that is 'widely
accepted by the scientific community'.  What if I said (as is said of the
'stories' in the bible) science is just another story made up by men who
hold a particular set of view points.  My feelings on this and other matters
of such thoughts, to deny the beliefs of others is to therefore deny your
own beliefs.  Agter all, according to what you say, we are justifying the
existence of a particular point of view and hold it tightly, except when
someone else's is being refuted. Everything can be refuted, but those of us
holding on to points of view, are doing just that..justifying our own point
of view, and we can all do it if we argue for long enough.  But still we are
NOT going to convert anyone to our point of view, if they don't want to be
converted.  People surf the net to find out who holds their point of view
and use it to justify this.  "See, there's this website 'Why wont god heal
amputees' and it proves what I have been saying".  I got this sent to me by
an acquaintance.  So now I have a deeper insight into his world. And what
about the 'soul'?  Perhaps the so called 'soul' is in fact the mind.  A
thinking thing.  Even animals and bacteria, or anything that is sentient has
a mind.  The state of that mind depends upon the experience that being has
had, what it is born in to and moment by moment leading to where it is, and
doing it's best to survive with the skills and experience it has.  How I
'felt' yesterday, is not the same as how I 'feel' today.  My experience is
dynamic, changing from one moment to the next.  Surely my body cannot
'experience' these things.  For, as you say, it is a bunch of chemicals, and
other material things, and if it were the case that chemicals and material
things that the body is made of were capable of experience, then you could
say a battery and a computer which are made up of either chemicals and
material things, would therefore be capable of relating opinions and feeling
their experiences.

You are right, the body (and the brain, which is a material object)
decompose daily and death is certain. How many people can look forward to
death. Our lifespan is uncertain, the mode of death uncertain, but
guaranteed.  If we all thought that we may die today, do you think we alter
the way we behave?  What happens during the death process is a mystery for
most, and some hold the grossly deluded point of view, that it's lights out'
without realising what is actually going on.  They argue ignorantly against
a point of view of future lives on the basis of no real knowledge.  If I
were to discuss in detail the point of view of a qualified Buddhist master
on the death process, with an open mind and then argue the details, as I
perceive them, and then listen to his answers, I could probably be with him
for months or years, depending upon what I need to clarify, and he would be
happy to listen to and discuss my views with me, from the perspective of his
experience.  Whether I decided to take his point of view, or yours, would be
up to me.  I could become one of your disciples or one of his.  I would be
inclined to listen to someone who has the correct logic, the most
'scientific' mind.  So far I have been searching deeply for knowledge and I
like what the Buddhist master has to say, I can argue, debate and clarify
until I am satisfied.  This may take a life time.  I can look at other
points of view, and analyse them.  My way of doing this is always in the
form of questions.  If you can answer my questions honestly and logically I
will contemplate them.  I will also put them to the test of proper
scientific analysis (sorry no test tubes).  There are some aspects of all
the religions, which I can see the logic, and other aspects that I find
confusing.  Unless there is someone from within these who has a direct
experience of the logic of the reasoning, then they are lost to me and
anyone else with an enquiring mind, and therefore come under the label
'superstition'.  I find, even within science there is much superstition.  I
have read deeply into theories on foods that heal and foods that harm, and
there are so many opinions out there.  Some people thrive on so called
'toxic' food stuffs such as aspartame, processed salt, processed soya such
as milk, margarine, sucralose, trans fats and other foods deemed poisonous.
I personally would prefer to avoid these to prolong my life span (though I
could get killed in a car accident) so don't get fazed out about the whole
issue. But I cannot ram my point of view.  If people share a point of view,
or not, good friends discuss and clarify, then do what they think works for
their digestion.  We don't know if a thing is wholesome or good for us,
unless we try it.  Mind you, if someone told us to eat deadly poison, just
to try it, would we?  So therefore, if someone believes that religion is
poison,  then they will not be induced to try it.  If someone we trust gave
us advice to reduce our suffering, and we tried it, and it worked, then we
would have developed 'faith' in that person.  What would a world devoid of
'faith' be like.  No remedies we can trust, no advice we can trust, no
friends we can trust.  I believe it is human to have faith and that faith
can be had in any object.  Those without faith are in despair.  They don't
even have faith in themselves.  Faith builds confidence.  Even if someone we
trusted gives us wrong advice, we can only conclude having tried their
advice, that it was not right for us, but then we are developing confidence
in our self and faith in our own sense of logic.  It doesn't mean that we
stop being the persons friend.  We are all different.   We all have
different relationships to food, according to our own genetic and mental
dispositions.  Some folk cannot tolerate meat, some eat it raw, some cook it
and each to their own.  We can only learn from our own experience, and what
is right for me, is not necessarily right for someone else.  I would be
ramming my opinion down the other person's throat.  The 'religion' of food.
True religion or spirituality..what is it?  I suppose we all have differing
views on that one.  Some develop anger when it is mentioned, some confusion,
some joy, some don't care, some have a big issue to prove points they hold,
whether it is in favour, or against.  One thing for sure, we are all
entitled to our own point of view and to have that accepted within society,
and to feel love and esteem.  Beats war!

Modern science IS the 'new religion'.  Maybe in years to come, people will
totally laugh at the idea of following the scientific way.  But there are
only so many people who believe in modern scientific rationale, some of them
are even 'religious' and new ideas in science are constantly refuting the
old held points of view. Perhaps we can stop being 'spoon fed' outmoded
science in schools and universities.  Albert Einstein was a great admirer of
the Buddhist faith for example.  I note that it is mainly the Christian
religion you are refuting.  I must admit to having had difficulty with the
bible.  It made no logical sense to me.  I do not however deny the existence
of a mind, which is not material (possibly aka the soul).  Chemicals and
material things in objects cannot think.  Although a tree appears to have
life, it does not think.  It has a series of chemical processes, but it does
not reason or experience.  Would a tree exist if there were no mind to
perceive it.  How does mind perceive or analyse things?  If it were due to a
series of chemical reactions, then we could say that a battery is capable of
perceiving and analysing.

I love your definition of delusion.  I work within psychiatry, and am
interested in this sort of thing, and have come to the conclusion, that we
are all deluded.  Examples of delusions to me are Anger.  This delusion
takes an object,  sees it as inherently unpleasant, focuses its mind on the
inherent unpleasantness of the object, rationalises it as inherently
unpleasant, exaggerates its bad qualities and wants to harm it or create
distance between the self and the object.  That same object, which is an
object of anger to one person, could be an object of love to another.  The
other person will see the object, think it is inherently beautiful,
exaggerate it's good qualities and develop desire to be close to or to
possess the object.  Another delusion has developed, this time attachment.
In both cases the object was seen, either one perceived it to have an
inherent quality, which was either 'good' or 'bad', they then exaggerated
it's 'good' or 'bad' qualities, and developed full blown anger or attachment
towards the object.  From it's own side the object remained the same.  It
was the perception of the two different people experiencing that object that
was different.  Both points of view  are deluded, because both have created
a grossly contaminated view of the object and developed strong attachment or
aversion.  Both minds were therefore deluded.  They both failed to see the
'real nature' of the object.  The object they saw (with their own eyes) did
not truly exist.  Their view was grossly deluded (contaminated views).  We
are constantly doing this with every object of knowledge.  We are nuts!
There are other delusions, such as pride, jealousy, holding wrong views,
malice, resentment and so on.  All of these delusions principally arise from
the anger and attachment, which are basically 2 of the 3 'root' delusions.
The principal 'root' delusion is IGNORANCE, and both anger and attachment
arise from that.  Ignorance is what I was telling you about, when we
perceive an object, and in dependence upon a contaminated view, which we are
mentally familiar with, and have never challenged or even thought about, we
see that object as being inherently existent.  We believe that all objects
are just sitting there waiting for us to experience them.  We do not see how
they actually appear to our mind, because we are so caught up in our gross
deluded world, our unchallenged way of viewing our world.  We 'see'  things
as existing 'out there' with absolutely no dependence upon our
interpretation or the thought process.  We live in a major materialistic
world.  The more we are caught up in this materialistic world, the more
difficult it is for us to accept the true view of reality, that objects are
created by mind.  We are so mentally deranged that we cannot see that things
do not exist in the way we perceive them to.  The truth is there, but we are
far from it.  We grasp tightly at objects, at our opinions (pride), at our
experiences, and we don't realise, that mere thought brought them into
being.  That there is an endless stream of thoughts constantly flowing
through our mind, that the thoughts we grasp at are our particular delusion
and the things we see and hear etc, our particular hallucination.  It is a
wonder that we can still get along, some of us, with so many different minds
perceiving so many things in so many different ways.

I do not agree with any of the fairy tales you are telling, or the fairy
tales you speak about, but I do believe that love, compassion and wisdom are
the only things that will make it possible for us all to free our self from
the eternal suffering that we experience on a daily basis, which arises from
our strong self grasping mind.  Some of us are creating wars, because they
are angry.  This is the worst delusion.  Much more harmful than a child who
believes in santa clause, a muslim who believes in mohammed, a Christian who
believes in jesus.  They are not harming anyone if they take the essence of
their faith, and do not harm others.  There are those, who in the name of
religion (even the Dalai Lama.check the following website
www.westernshugdensociety.org <http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/>  )
conduct atrocities towards others and justify their negative actions in the
name of religion. They are best to be challenged.  Some get nobel peace
prizes, yet they are harming others.  They put on their media faces. Anger
is the cause of all wars.  It is the grossest of all delusions, and creates
hellish suffering for all concerned, including the perpetrators.  Who can
sleep peacefully at night, knowing they have harmed another?  If folk want
to be deluded or don't want to get better, then they are stuck.  They wont
examine the truth.  David Icke talks about the bah bah mentality.  It must
be terrible to face death without having achieved the real function of a
precious human life, to make others happy. There are many very intelligent
people making observations about religion.  I have read Icke's critique of
it, and felt mentally challenged, but then, I realised, that I had not
properly listened to what the guy was saying, nor had I examined my own
views.  I am reading your website, and some of it makes sense.  But you
appear to be doing exactly the same as the 'god crew', you appear to be
attached strongly to a point of view. Icke gets close to reality, and the
true nature of things, by trying to analyse genetics.  I have read Bruce
Liptons 'scientific' approach to belief.the biology of belief.  Between us
all there is some semblance of reality. If we were to analyse our universe
with wisdom, starting with what we think the body and mind are, then we
would find that, like 'god' 'mohammed' and 'buddha' they do not exist from
their own side.  They are mere appearances to mind, and arise from their own
mere absence.  Everything arises from causes, and are known as effects.
Every experience that makes each human being unique, is the interplay of
multiple causes giving rise to their effects, and we simultaneously
re-create the causes which will give rise to the effects. Causes are created
throiught the mental (mind) factor intention and effects are experienced
through the mental factor 'feeling'.  Yes, if you analyse it, you will find
that all feelings arise from our mind.  They arise from the
thought.pleasant, unpleasant, neutral etc.  Mentally we label all
experiences.  The anger that is so prevalent, the killing, lying, stealing
and verbal hurts that we do, arise from the intentions in our mind.  They do
not ever happen without intention ever, ever.  Without the mental factor
intention, there is no verbal or physical action.  Even drunk or stoned
people have intentions.  Their minds may be affected by their respective
drugs, but they have intentions.  The intention to get out of their faces
regardless of the consequences to themselves or others is one aspect.
Science, in the form of psychology and other disciplines attempts to explain
our world and the beings within it, but no one ever can tell the intentions
of another without enquiry from that person.  Quite often, because we are
not in the habit of analysing our own intentions and experiences and
thoughts etc, we fail to take responsibility for our own actions.  We blame
others, jesus, god, parents, the dog, circumstances, fate, science, George
Bush, the food we just ate, religion to name a few.  Not that we made any
personal decisions or choices!  Not that we think by taking personal
responsibility for our actions, that we can stop hurting others, stop being
intolerant, stop blaming others for our anger and the resultant actions
taken whilst in that most awful state of mind.  The only hope for humanity
now is to change the way they think.  To develop love and patience towards
each other, to forgive (even the religious zealots) for they are all just an
appearance to our mind.  Do we want to hallucinate a happy world or a
painful frightening world?  If we know that the causes of paranoia, pain and
suffering come from deluded states of mind and the root IGNORANCE that
grasps at our personal hallucinations, and then believes they are 'real',
what would we do about them?

Hey what about the religion of 'economics'  the delusion that is money.
Does money truly exist? Does it bring real happiness?  Does every rich
person have happiness?  Is every poor person unhappy? What about centuries
ago when barter was the main way of survival, what about centuries before
that when scavenging and travelling were the main way of sustaining the life
force and money was unheard of, how did folks survive?  If someone told
those people that a large rectangular box would transmit the 'truth' as they
want us to know it, from the corner of your living quarters and men would
cease to search for food and eat alien substances, (which incidentally,
along with toxic minds, and toxic environments may be the cause of cancerous
bodies) would they have thought that person to be deluded and offered him up
as a sacrifice to the deity of the day?  Our world is the combined effect
from each one of us and we are all superstitious, more so now than ever.
The fact that some good things are happening is attestation to the power of
a positive mind.  If everyone were inherently negative in their thought
processes we would be living in a hellish painful state of existence with
the intention and subsequent actions of harming one another.  If  1% of the
population made a concerted effort to generate positive states of mind,
reduced their selfishness and kept a peaceful happy mind, maybe even
meditate daily to calm the mind, then I firmly believe that there could be
no wars and that suffering would be greatly reduced.  They would have a
knock on effect.  We all know how damaging it is to us mentally to hang
around angry people, identifying with them and being strongly influenced by
them and feeling hurt by them.  I for one would much rather hang around
happy people. When I encounter an angry person, I see deep hurt and pain,
and want nothing more for them, than to be happy and peaceful.  When we are
peaceful our self, we become a source of peace to others, it rubs off.
People are influenced by us, and they behave in more considerate ways.  They
learn from us, because they admire what we have.  There is no greater prize
than being happy and peaceful.  I wish I could feel like that all the time,
and I suppose most folk do, whether they rely on science, economics or
religion, they will eventually find their way home.  Good luck with your
website.  I hope you can consider some of the things I am asking about.
Take care and may you find true peace and happiness in every moment of your
thought processes (or consciousness, mind or soul.whatever you care to call
it) and  beyond your mortal existences.

Offline Irish

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 10:34:58 PM »
Not to put a damper on things (and I say this as kindly as possible) but your post is nothing but a HUGE wall of text.  I doubt very many will respond.  I know when I scrolled down I didn't even read anything.... just too hard.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 11:15:26 PM »
Not to put a damper on things (and I say this as kindly as possible) but your post is nothing but a HUGE wall of text.  I doubt very many will respond.  I know when I scrolled down I didn't even read anything.... just too hard.

Yep.  There's no way I'm reading almost 3,500 words in one big chunk. 

If there is a point in that wall of words, it can be made in a paragraph or two.  (Maximum of 200 words.)
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline DL

Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 08:39:49 PM »
OP responds via email:

Typical responses from narrow minded sheep.  They don't even realise this
EMAIL was never intended for publication on a forum, but to encourage some
greater depth of thinking upon the writers of the website, sent to THEM
personally.  Lost on you I think.  Maybe you will print this short response
as an after thought for those who are on your puny website, who have limited
interests in that they cannot read text. By the way I read your readers long
text, and it is full of irrelevant, meaningless bulls**t...there seems to be
a thread of similarity with your website.  I learned something from this,
to realise that, had I known that my EMAIL was going to be printed I would
have said something like this. 'GOD DUZNY EXIST, BUT WE ALL HAV A MIND.  IF
WE DIDNY HAV A MIND, THEN WE'D BE A BATTERY OR A COMPUTER (AKA PC) AND FULL
OF KEMIKAL REACSHUNS AND ELECTRIKAL SIGNALS 2, WHICH IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS
SAYIN.  THEN YOU CUD SAFELY SAY WE HAD NO MIND, LITES OUT WHEN YOU DIE. I
THINK THAT JUST ABOUT CONDENSES IT TO THE DEGREE AT WHICH YOUR READURS CAN
TAKE IT IN.'  HOWS THAT! Don't say I am insulting your intelligence,
otherwise take the time to try to understand what I am saying in my letter
which was never intended as a post.  DUH! Mad, faithless, hopeless crew.  I
have such great pity for y'all.  Stuck in small minds.  Still if ur are
happy being stuck in them, so be it. LETS SEE IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO
PRINT THIS ON THE SAME PAGE AS MY ORIGINAL LETTER, and then we can see the
flow of delusions.....namely ANGER. Cheers & Love [initials]

Offline StPatrick

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 09:59:17 PM »
Quote
who have limited
interests in that they cannot read text.

Malarky.  The "no giant walls of text rule" holds true to pretty much any forum you go to.  No one can be bothered to read giant unparsed paragraphs.  If you really want us to read them, you could have parsed them better instead of merely insulting us.

Quote
LETS SEE IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO
PRINT THIS ON THE SAME PAGE AS MY ORIGINAL LETTER

Done.  Now what?
If we come together and do not fight over religion, class and borders then we hold the key to a peaceful world. There are two possible futures in store; either a March of power and greed or a March of a unified human race.

Offline Hermes

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 11:19:49 PM »
I asked for a summary, and got berated in the first sentence for my troubles.

I'm glad I didn't read the first message or the second ... well, past the first couple sentences.



Conclusion: I don't care for your words no matter how wise or ignorant they are.  They are sounds from an @$$ and just as welcome.  Why don't you contact the Unibomber and trade letters?
Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice.  --Sir James George Frazer

Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 03:02:29 PM »
I don't think that "reading text" in general is a problem for anyone here. When a single paragraph is nearly double the screen height of my laptop browser, however, that is a problem. It's a matter of presentation. For example, the penultimate paragraph ran into 67 lines (give or take; I counted it in a hurry), and more than 800 words. In a paperback novel, that would run to two pages. That's excessive. If I had received something like that in my e-mail inbox, I'd have sent it straight to the Trash - no matter the content. A lack of effort in correspondence, a poorly formatted message, is a barrier to communication. I'm sorry the e-mailer can't appreciate that, but simply dismisses people as "closed-minded" and "sheep".
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline singlecrochet

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 03:14:07 PM »
ba..aahh.....aahhh
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Thomas Paine

"P.S. I pray God sees to it that you get presents this year." - Deelvrd

Offline Ananukia

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2008, 11:36:47 PM »
Crew? What are we Pirates?
        Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
    Where flap the tatters of the King,
    Must die unheard in

        Dim Carcosa.

Offline Dragnet

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 01:01:20 PM »
'GOD DUZNY EXIST, BUT WE ALL HAV A MIND.<SNIP>

Childish and rude.
Perhaps once you come down from your elevated equine position of superiority, you would be inclined to join us for some healthy debate.
I am responsible with my actions NOW so I don't HAVE to be responsible for them later.

Offline Dkit

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 01:19:42 PM »
Mad, faithless, hopeless crew.  I have such great pity for y'all.  Stuck in small minds.

Why?  Because we don't believe in an "Invisible Magic Person" living in the sky who deeply cares about the thoughts and actions of inhabitants on a speck of a planet at the edge of some random galaxy?  Nothing like the all-inclusiveness of religion to bring a species together. 

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 04:08:22 PM by Dkit »
"The Bible is a Banquet table not a snack tray!" - Anonymous Facebook User

Offline Vital

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 01:31:08 PM »
OP responds via email: Typical responses from narrow minded sheep. 

So I'm a sheep for not blindly following god?  I think Christians are sheep.  Christian mythology is full of "sheep" talk.  No sir, i believe you are the sheep.  I find your blind belief insulting to those of us with common sense.

OP responds via email: They don't even realise this EMAIL was never intended for publication on a forum...
OP responds via email: By the way I read your readers long text...

Then you should have known that your email had a chance to end up here.  I'm not sure what the rules for posting emails here is.  I just know that they do post them.  So you as well should of known.

If you take the time to respond to this you'll only be wasting it.  I have no intentions of ever reading or responding to your posts ever again.  Good day sir.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 01:37:25 PM by Vital »
...Christopher Hitchens wrote; "Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

Offline Irish

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Re: Interesting website [#710]
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 03:46:10 AM »
The OP is just being belligerent, angry, and I think just wants to pick a fight.  That's what I got out of the mindless ramble of the second message.  OP, your first message is under the category "giant wall of text."  No one is going to read a long, drawn out, wall-o'-text with no paragraphs or no clear breaks between thoughts.  If you didn't want your email published in this forum then why respond in the first place.

As to the sheep comment... I would call you a sheep, following a herder blindly without reason, merit, or evidence.  I as an atheist choose to step out of the box and view my world on an evidence level.  Before I believe in something I must have evidence to support it's existence and mechanism.  And as to faith; the definition of faith is, "Belief in the teachings or dogma or teachings of religion without support or evidence."  Look in a dictionary if you don't believe me.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.