Is it time for all religions to accept evolution?

[Star Stuff]

I took the 1 hour to watch this video in the hopes that I would finally see YEC as a thing of the past, unfortunately what I saw was how religious belief truly is or acts like a virus of the mind.  Here we have grown adults in 2014 blinded by belief in a primitive book.  One book.  It left me with a feeling of both hatred for religious stupidity, and a sense of sadness that the human mind can be so stunted by fixed beliefs.  It was also sad to see a couple of those scientifically educated and literate individuals who were arguing for the fact of evolution, appeared to have a part of their mind infected with god belief, without good reason or evidence.  One guy even admitted that it was the religion that he was raised with.  Painful.

[Star Stuff]

The black woman in that previous video was colossally stupid, and stuck in simple-minded, primitive superstitions, and after watching just now, another black woman with the equivalent level of stupidity (@ 40:00). 

Before you jump on me for drawing a conclusion from just 2 examples, I have witnessed this amongst black people in general, and black women in particular.  Why is that?

[Mooby]

Before you jump on me for drawing a conclusion from just 2 examples, I have witnessed this amongst black people in general, and black women in particular.  Why is that?

Because you're racist.  Otherwise, why would the most resonating quality be that they were black, and why would you go out of your way to inform us they were black?

[Star Stuff]

So if one observes that a large number of the black population shares this line of thinking, one is a racist?  And if one declares that they observe that most Irish people love their beer, then one is also a racist too?  Perhaps you've been hypnotized in a stupor of political correctness.

[Mooby]

So if one observes that a large number of the black population shares this line of thinking, one is a racist?  And if one declares that they observe that most Irish people love their beer, then one is also a racist too?

Yes on both accounts.

Perhaps you've been hypnotized in a stupor of political correctness.

Not at all.  I've come to terms with the fact that nearly everyone is racist, some more so than others.  The question is to what degree it is tolerated and largely accepted in casual discourse.

[Ron Jeremy]

I prefer the Abrahamic religions, as organisations, to align themselves with Young Earth and a literal Genesis, and therefore not accept evolution. I think this makes it easier for their lunacy to be exposed, especially as science continues its explanations of the universe.
Obviously I want the individuals in these religions to accept evolution and old Earth. It would be difficult for educated people to remain in the religions when the religion contradicts reality.

[kcrady]

The black woman in that previous video was colossally stupid, and stuck in simple-minded, primitive superstitions, and after watching [video] just now, another black woman with the equivalent level of stupidity (@ 40:00). 

Before you jump on me for drawing a conclusion from just 2 examples, I have witnessed this amongst black people in general, and black women in particular.  Why is that?

Sampling bias.  If the only black people you ever heard talking about evolution and religion were Neil deGrasse Tyson, Morgan Freeman, and Yemisi Ilesanmi, and the only white people you heard talking about it were Ken Ham, Ken Hovind, and his ilk, you'd have a whole different conclusion, right?

Also...yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Mooby that it seems like you've got some (probably subconscious) racism going on.  Your mind is taking the trouble to notice the blackness of some colossally stupid people while not highlighting the whiteness of other colossally stupid people.  As someone who's been in the atheism business for awhile, you can't not know that there are lots and lots and lots of giant megachurches full of liiiiiiiiily-white creationist whackaloons. 

So, you've got a neural circuit that lights up and says, "Holy crap that black person is stupid!" while not lighting up in the same way for a stupid white person.  Then your pattern-matching circuitry says, "Huh, why are there so many stupid black people?"  It doesn't make you an evil person, it just means that you have a cognitive bias that needs correcting.  I suggest you make an effort to notice when you see things that contradict the pattern (e.g., stupid white people, smart black people).  Try spending some time here for a start.

I haven't watched the videos (I'm at work, the computers here don't have the flash plugins to run YouTube), but I've seen enough people "stuck in simple-minded, primitive superstitions" of various ethnicities to conclude that the correlation is to things like culture, educational level, upbringing, poverty, etc. rather than race.  I feel I should also point out that "simple-minded primitive superstition" is the default state of the human mind.  Scientifically-oriented critical thought is relatively new in the human cognitive toolkit; we still don't teach it in schools alongside math and history.

[Tero]

Religions can't "accept" anything new. They have to go by the ancient documents. You have to have a prophet big enough to write an entire new book. Like NT, or Mormons.

[Chronos]

Before you jump on me for drawing a conclusion from just 2 examples, I have witnessed this amongst black people in general, and black women in particular.  Why is that?

Because you're racist.  Otherwise, why would the most resonating quality be that they were black, and why would you go out of your way to inform us they were black?

I cannot say whether Star Stuff is racist, but I haven't seen any reason previously to think so.

The black woman in that previous video was colossally stupid, and stuck in simple-minded, primitive superstitions, and after watching [video] just now, another black woman with the equivalent level of stupidity (@ 40:00). 

Before you jump on me for drawing a conclusion from just 2 examples, I have witnessed this amongst black people in general, and black women in particular.  Why is that?

Sampling bias.  If the only black people you ever heard talking about evolution and religion were Neil deGrasse Tyson, Morgan Freeman, and Yemisi Ilesanmi, and the only white people you heard talking about it were Ken Ham, Ken Hovind, and his ilk, you'd have a whole different conclusion, right?

Also...yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Mooby that it seems like you've got some (probably subconscious) racism going on.

I work with the public every day. I have a wide selection of customers in my business with whom I talk a great deal -- some never graduated high school while others have obtained PhDs, MDs or JDs. While I don't venture into discussions of religion, my clients volunteer the issue of religion during appointments (this issue comes up often in the circumstance of life insurance and final plans but comes up in other ways, as well). The issue of evolution rarely is raised. I think I've had the issue of aliens visiting earth come up far more often.[1]

Black customers are far more likely to attend church regularly and far more likely to be vocal about their religion. For most of my white clients, the issue of religion comes out much more slowly and I have to listen for certain cues. This is due to cultural differences. Jewish and Muslim customers are far more tentative for speaking about their religion (I am obviously neither) until they get to know me.

People who are more religious are more likely to dismiss evolution in favor of creationism/Noah narratives. Blacks are demonstratively more religious. Ergo, I observe that blacks are more likely to adhere to a creationist narrative rather than evolution. A less racial view is that people with the least amount of education are more likely to dismiss evolution in favor of the stories of whichever bible god they follow. People with lesser education are found in a variety of places -- the white variety tends to cluster in rural areas, the black variety forms larger clusters in urban areas. Unfortunately, among those with the least amount of education is demonstratively skewed toward blacks. For my black clients with a college education who have moved to the suburbs, they come to resemble more the white community in which they find themselves.

Did Star Stuff engage in sampling bias with respect to that particular video? Perhaps.
Is Star Stuff singling out the disbelievers by the color of their skin? Perhaps.
Is Star Stuff subject to confirmation bias? Perhaps.
Is Star Stuff wrong in his observation that blacks, particularly black women, are more likely to be religious and/or disbelieve evolution? No.

Star Stuff was asking about his observation and I think it is wrong to label him as racist. The question he asked is why does he observe this, and I think that is a deep question that was discussed in another thread.

Where is NoGodsForMe? We need her opinion here ...

1.	I have observed that there is no particular background over another that more often believes we have had alien visitors. It's rather surprising who vocalizes these thoughts.

[Star Stuff]

Kcrady, I'm surprised that someone as bright as yourself would make such a considerable error in your assessment of me, and my comments on this thread.  While I don't wish this thread to get derailed here, I would like to clarify this one point.  For starters, you would be hard-pressed to find a less "racist" individual as myself.  As I grew up I could never understand prejudice.  For there are no other "races", there is only one race - the human race.  Chronos has astutely seen through the fog of political correctness and avoided the knee-jerk "Gasp - a racist!" response.  And he is indeed correct; nowhere did I suggest that there are no black women who are intelligent/non superstitious/atheistic, nor do I not recognize the many unintelligent/superstitious simps who are white.  I'm merely pointing out that it appears that the sort of mentality & beliefs that were expressed by the two black women in the videos (it would have been helpful for you to actually watch them before commenting) are highly ubiquitous amongst black women, and I do suspect that it is indeed due to the lower levels of education amongst black women globally.  If this is indeed true, it is not "racist", it's an observation.

[jaimehlers]

So if one observes that a large number of the black population shares this line of thinking, one is a racist?

Unless you've actually observed this, and have eliminated other correlating factors, such as income and education, and other things along those lines, then this is an informal assessment, also known as a stereotype.  You don't have to be a racist[1] to fall into the trap of judging a group by a stereotype.

And if one declares that they observe that most Irish people love their beer, then one is also a racist too?

Same as above, although Irish people aren't generally considered a separate race.

Perhaps you've been hypnotized in a stupor of political correctness.

Or maybe you've neglected to consider that even people who are not racist can still stereotype.

1.	believe that a given race is inferior

[Star Stuff]

Unless you've actually observed this, and have eliminated other correlating factors, such as income and education, and other things along those lines, then this is an informal assessment, also known as a stereotype.

I mentioned it because I have indeed observed it. Everywhere I've travelled, and all of my life experience to date (which includes, as you might dismiss as ridiculous - all broadcast television footage including news, documentaries, talk shows, etc, from around the globe over my lifetime) confirms my observation. As a matter of fact, when watching those two videos, in my own mind I suspected that those two women were going to say pretty much exactly what they did say before they opened their mouth(s); I was confident of it, and I was correct. I wasn't 100% sure that they would reveal their simplemindedness & superstition, I'm always hopeful that any individual will be intelligent & evolved, but in this particular case, I was bang-on.

I did not eliminate other correlating factors such as income/education, rather I'm suggesting that it is indeed those factors that is likely the causal agent, not their skin colour.

You don't have to be a racist to believe that a given race is inferior to fall into the trap of judging a group by a stereotype.

Absolutely; I agree, but if a study revealed that the vast majority of Irish people do indeed love beer, or the sort of mentality/superstition/god belief displayed by those two women in the two videos is at an unusually off-the-charts high level amongst black women globally compared to others of the total population, then you would be as foolish to call that observation "racist" as you are suggesting that I am racist.  This is the result of political correctness gone mad that I see around me as well, for you seem to be saying that it's just not possible for an ethnic group to have certain characteristics. Such a view is myopic and a kind of state of denial, perhaps based on fear of what your peers might think of you should you now be viewed as employing sweeping generalizations.

[Chronos]

I'm merely pointing out that it appears that the sort of mentality & beliefs that were expressed by the two black women in the videos (it would have been helpful for you to actually watch them before commenting) are highly ubiquitous amongst black women, and I do suspect that it is indeed due to the lower levels of education amongst black women globally.  If this is indeed true, it is not "racist", it's an observation.

Lower levels of education, and therefore lower requirements for critical thinking skills (typically), are often the explanation for adherence to religion for lower socio-economic classes regardless of race. The particular question, though, is why do black women adhere to religion so much? Even when higher levels of education are achieved? The second woman in particular was misguided but quite capable and well-spoken. I do not get the impression that she is holding a lower position on the socio-economic ladder. Black women comprise the hardest-hit socio-economic class but even black women who are better off adhere to religion more often.

I think the tougher the times that people must endure, the more they adhere to something else that they think helps them -- or might help them. As the saying goes: Any port in a storm. I believe this is a relic of slavery, of a permanently lowered social status of blacks, especially black women. White men are the least likely to invest themselves in religion; black women are the most likely. I don't think the socio-economic disparity between the two is simply a coincidence. Religion as a conscious choice is a symptom of something else.

[Jag]

^^^What Chronos says above, plus the tendency for religious beliefs to be handed down from one generation to the next.

Here's another way to look at the question: If one considers the approximate age of the people under discussion, you can take a pretty good guess about the rough age of their parents. Factor in the social and economic challenges and changes that have occurred over those lifetimes and you start to get an idea of the other cultural factors that would influence the strength of their convictions. Any port in a storm indeed.

Aside for clarity: I'm taking a social psychology class this semester, studying the social influences on behavior, attitudes, and beliefs. Fascinating and sometimes very unsettling, but it seems applicable in this case.

[Graybeard]

I should not be surprised at Mooby’s comments:

So if one observes that a large number of the black population shares this line of thinking, one is a racist?  And if one declares that they observe that most Irish people love their beer, then one is also a racist too?

Yes on both accounts.

Perhaps you've been hypnotized in a stupor of political correctness.

Not at all.  I've come to terms with the fact that nearly everyone is racist, some more so than others.  The question is to what degree it is tolerated and largely accepted in casual discourse.

But I am disappointed. We are supposed to be good at observing things as a generality: “All dogs have 4 legs.” But there will always be someone who says, “I saw a dog with 3 legs.” as if to make the original statement appear false. One exception does not contradict a generality: quite a few only dent a generality slightly.

When we say negative things about a group, is it always false? When we say positive things about a group, is it always true? Of course generalities are generalities.

It is unfortunate when generalities operate to the disadvantage of certain groups, but this, of itself, should not prevent the observation. If we are understand and to address the needs of a group, we need to know its culture.

If I say, “Part of the culture of Rumbabwe is roasting kittens” – it is simply not true that every Rumbabwean will roast kittens. If I say, “Rumbabweans roast kittens.” Is that racist?

Now, where is the difference between “the culture” and “the stereotype”. I suggest “its culture” is merely a more acceptable term than “the stereotype”.

So when we talk of “Black/White/Asian culture”, what are we saying? Are we “racist”? Why should we need to see a difference? Do we need to understand it at all? Would “Separate development”[1] be a better idea? Or is integration of some sort and mutual understanding better?

I think integration (both ways) and mutual understanding are better. But we do need to know the differences between us.

We should learn to put “In general” before observations. To deny generalities, is to ignore evidence, which, in turn, is gross stupidity.

We can make sweeping statements of groups without being called racist. I dislike it when “racist” springs too readily to the lips, regardless of which group says it to which other group. It is often inaccurate, and on WWGHA, it is, in general, the wrong epithet.

1.	or to translate that: Apartheid

[jetson]

Yes, it is WAY beyond time for all humans to accept that evolution is the best current explanation for the diversity of life on this planet. To say otherwise is to ignore how far we've come, and is literally no different than those who thought the earth was flat, or that it was the center of the universe (or whatever non-sense was proposed back in the day). To cling to a particular religious explanation for life, and its diversity is to cling to completely and utterly outdated ideas that have no place in modern humanity.

Start Stuff - you would need to be far more thoughtless and destructive for me to label you as racist.

[Star Stuff]

Anyway, back to topic of evolution, I just came across this video that every YEC should watch:

[Nam]

So if one observes that a large number of the black population shares this line of thinking, one is a racist?  And if one declares that they observe that most Irish people love their beer, then one is also a racist too?  Perhaps you've been hypnotized in a stupor of political correctness.

Actually, I found it to be racist, as well. People are people, no matter their skin color; one can be just as stupid as the next or just as smart.

-Nam

[Star Stuff]

Actually, I found it to be racist, as well. People are people, no matter their skin color; one can be just as stupid as the next or just as smart.

Then it's clear that you haven't been paying attention to what's been said, yet felt compelled to go ahead and give me a - Darwin anyway.  Nice.

[Nam]

Actually, I found it to be racist, as well. People are people, no matter their skin color; one can be just as stupid as the next or just as smart.

Then it's clear that you haven't been paying attention to what's been said.

How's that? Does one have to read all comments before replying to a particular comment of a topic? I live in the deep south (North Florida, part of the Bible belt, is considered the deep south) and I experience racist idiots all the time. The word "nigger" used as "black" no matter what or who the "black" is as if it's not a racist word but just any old word. A black horse is a nigger horse. A black dog is a nigger dog. And they see absolutely no problem with calling anything black nigger because that's what black means to them. Is that any less racist?

Are you just pointing out particular women, and then commenting on them based off their social-economic standpoint in their life, or are you judging them solely on the fact they are black? If a white woman lived in the same way each of them did would you reply, "that white woman" or would you just say "woman"? You would say the latter. I hear and read it all the time. It's the same for any race. If a black woman was talking about a white person they'd say, "that white man/woman". Is that any less racist? It's still racism.

There are levels of racism, and you spoke at one level. The fact you, or Graybeard, or anyone else chooses to say, "Oh no...I'm not being racist I'm stereotyping" are idiots, and no better than the diehard racists out there who use the same explanations for their racisms.

Don't be an idiot.

-Nam

[Star Stuff]

How's that? Does one have to read all comments before replying to a particular comment of a topic?

Yes, it would possibly prevent you from appearing less unintelligent as you are appearing right now.

[Nam]

I am, at times, a racist person--toward white people. White people gave me the most grief in my life, and though I have had relationships, been friends with, and are related to white people I am very uncomfortable around them most of the time. And being a white person myself, it's difficult at times. But at the end of the day, they, like everyone else are just people, and I treat everyone equal to everyone else.

The difference between a person like me and a person like you is that I have no fear in admitting such things, even in a public forum, you do.

-Nam

[Nam]

How's that? Does one have to read all comments before replying to a particular comment of a topic?

Yes, it would possibly prevent you from appearing less unintelligent as you are appearing right now.

Your assumption was that I didn't, your assumption was wrong and if you bothered to read my comment you would notice, in reply (2nd) I actually had.

Stop being an idiot.

-Nam

[Star Stuff]

Then your reading comprehension skills are terrible.

[Nam]

Then your reading comprehension skills are terrible.

My reading comprehension is just fine, idiot.

-Nam

[Nam]

I watched a bit of the first video, and why, may I ask, could you not say, "The woman in the front row."? She was, that I could see, the only woman in the front row.  In the second video you had three options: 1. The woman at 40 minutes 2. The woman with the red hat/cap or better yet 3. Her name was given on the screen (Patsie...something). Instead you said "black woman"; and you degraded both of them in your comments about them.

You first degraded these two women, and then you went on speaking about all (generalisation) black women. Perhaps you weren't only being racist but sexist as well.

Stereotyping is one thing, pointing out based on the color of their skin, and pointing out no others based on their skin is racist.

Disagreeing with their point-of-view, or even calling them stupid isn't being racist but pointing them out based on their skin color is.

The woman in the front row would have sufficed for the first video. The woman in the red hat would have sufficed for the second video. You did neither, you pointed out their skin color as if there is a significance to it. Oh, yes, I realise the conversation seem to expound into why are black women more adept at voicing their faith, or susceptible to religion than other races but your personal observation, or anyone else's here means nothing unless you can back it up with evidence otherwise you're all just stereotyping based on race, and that's racist.

-Nam

[Star Stuff]

I watched a bit of the first video, and why, may I ask, could you not say, "The woman in the front row."? She was, that I could see, the only woman in the front row.

Because my intention was to point out the fact that their mentality & beliefs are ubiquitous amongst black women, based on my life experience and observations, and I believe that I am correct on this.  The fact that you rail against said possible factoid, displays something odd on your part.

In the second video you had three options:  1. The woman at 40 minutes.  2. The woman with the red hat/cap or better yet:  3. Her name was given on the screen (Patsie...something). Instead you said "black woman"; and you degraded both of them in your comments about them.

Because my intention was to point out the fact that their mentality & beliefs are ubiquitous amongst black women, based on my life experience and observations, and I believe that I am correct on this.  The fact that you rail against said possible factoid, displays something odd on your part.

You first degraded these two women, and then you went on speaking about all (generalisation) black women. Perhaps you weren't only being racist but sexist as well.

Because my intention was to point out the fact that their mentality & beliefs are ubiquitous amongst black women, based on my life experience and observations, and I believe that I am correct on this.  The fact that you rail against said possible factoid, displays something odd on your part.

Stereotyping is one thing, pointing out based on the color of their skin, and pointing out no others based on their skin is racist.

As already mentioned (too bad about your reading comprehension abilities BTW) I acknowledge that not all black women (or men for that matter) hold this particular brand of mentality/beliefs, and that it is also not exclusive to black women, rather, that it does indeed seem to be ubiquitous among black women.  If you rail at such a suggestion, then I suspect that you too are yet another victim of political correctness, and in an effort to not be seen on the side of "racists", you go to and embrace the untenable position that no ethnic group can possibly have any characteristics, because that - gasp - would be racist right?  It is group-think mentality that is behind your fear of honesty, and this is fully explainable in evolutionary terms with us social creatures, but could also be deemed cowardly.

[jaimehlers]

I mentioned it because I have indeed observed it. Everywhere I've travelled, and all of my life experience to date (which includes, as you might dismiss as ridiculous - all broadcast television footage including news, documentaries, talk shows, etc, from around the globe over my lifetime) confirms my observation. As a matter of fact, when watching those two videos, in my own mind I suspected that those two women were going to say pretty much exactly what they did say before they opened their mouth(s); I was confident of it, and I was correct. I wasn't 100% sure that they would reveal their simplemindedness & superstition, I'm always hopeful that any individual will be intelligent & evolved, but in this particular case, I was bang-on.

The point I was trying to make is that you're basing it on your own personal experiences, rather than a statistical sample.  I have no idea where you've traveled to, who you've observed, and so on, and thus I have no way to evaluate how accurate your observations might be.

I did not eliminate other correlating factors such as income/education, rather I'm suggesting that it is indeed those factors that is likely the causal agent, not their skin colour.

That was not clear from what you originally posted.

Absolutely; I agree, but if a study revealed that the vast majority of Irish people do indeed love beer, or the sort of mentality/superstition/god belief displayed by those two women in the two videos is at an unusually off-the-charts high level amongst black women globally compared to others of the total population, then you would be as foolish to call that observation "racist" as you are suggesting that I am racist.  This is the result of political correctness gone mad that I see around me as well, for you seem to be saying that it's just not possible for an ethnic group to have certain characteristics. Such a view is myopic and a kind of state of denial, perhaps based on fear of what your peers might think of you should you now be viewed as employing sweeping generalizations.

You seem to be stereotyping people online based on perceived political correctness, and that leads me to wonder if your opinions on political correctness aren't affecting your judgment here.  What I said was that people who are not racist can still stereotype.  I was not suggesting you were racist, nor was I suggesting that ethnic or racial groups could not have certain characteristics[1].  So why is it that you perceived those things in my post?

Instead of repeating your mistake by making pernicious insinuations about what you might have meant by that, I'll let you answer for yourself.

1.	Indeed, the process of stereotyping requires one to notice certain shared characteristics of a group.

[Star Stuff]

The point I was trying to make is that you're basing it on your own personal experiences, rather than a statistical sample.  I have no idea where you've traveled to, who you've observed, and so on, and thus I have no way to evaluate how accurate your observations might be.

Yes, and I fully am open to the possibility that I've been duped by my observations, I'm just stating my observations, which may be correct.

You seem to be stereotyping people online based on perceived political correctness, and that leads me to wonder if your opinions on political correctness aren't affecting your judgment here.

I don't quite follow you there.