Author Topic: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?  (Read 1807 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2014, 11:16:19 AM »
If God does exist it means he can't not exist.

I do not accept this.  Please explain/ demonstrate why I should think this is so.  It seems to me this is said by the religious simply because they want it to be.  Or because they have defined the idea of god thus. 

But that is not how reality works.  The cheetah is not the fastest land animal because we have defined it that way.  The cheetah is the fastest land animal because it has been observed to be so.  You cannot define reality and expect it to conform to your definition.  Same with god. 

You are in the unenviable position of not having a god to observe. So you actually know nothing about your god (besides what is written in his PR manual), if he actually exists.  Everything you say about him is just unsubstantiated rumor or second hand hearsay at best. 
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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2014, 07:51:34 AM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2014, 08:29:56 AM »
If God does exist it means he can't not exist.

I do not accept this.  Please explain/ demonstrate why I should think this is so.  It seems to me this is said by the religious simply because they want it to be.  Or because they have defined the idea of god thus.....
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2014, 08:33:13 AM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2014, 09:07:53 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

It seems to me that any implications that god has to exist is so obviously hyperbole.  So if we get to accept what you're saying here, then you'll have to accept that, just because the descriptions say god has to exist, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Either take the entire text literally or justify why claims of has to exist should be taken as such.
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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2014, 09:41:10 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

No, the most you've got here is, "If Yahweh exists, then his propaganda literature says he cannot not exist."  Yahweh makes all manner of grandiose claims for himself (and presumably "inspires" his press secretaries to do so on his behalf), but the narrative passages of the Bible, which portray him (and his human and spiritual enemies) in action do not support those claims, as I demonstrated in my previous post.

It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

How so?  The very existence of opposition to Yahweh--Satan and his angels, the gods or spiritual "princes" of other nations, the "principalities and powers" that Paul speaks of in his epistles, the battles prophesied in the Book of Revelation--presupposes that opposition to Yahweh is possible.  The spirit beings presumably have much more direct and extensive knowledge of Yahweh and his powers than any humans do, including Biblical writers who, the Bible tells us, just wrote what they were told.  That these spirit beings are portrayed going toe to toe with Yahweh and his angels and holding their own or even winning on some occasions represents Biblical proof of the contention that Yahweh can be defeated, at least in principle.  If it were otherwise, the actions of these spirit beings would make no sense. 

Why fight an invincible foe?  If there's zero chance of victory, would it not make more sense for them to just go relax on a beach somewhere, or go surf the Crab Nebula?  It's a whole lot less work than engaging in a bunch of pointless "spiritual warfare."  For that matter, Yahweh's actions wouldn't make sense either.  Why should he fight, if his would-be enemies can't hurt him?  What does he even need an angelic army for?  Why does the Heavenly City have walls and gates?  If a group of toddlers attacked Godzilla, would Godzilla care?  Or even notice?

That Yahweh does notice, and is repeatedly portrayed responding as if he is, in fact, threatened by both human and spiritual adversaries, is inescapable Biblical proof that the claims of his propagandists are wildly exaggerated.

Your approach is akin to someone in 1950 saying, "It says in this issue of Pravda that the Soviet Union is able to produce three harvests a year because of the discoveries of Lysenko and the superiority of collectivized agriculture.  Therefore, the Soviet Union can't not produce three harvests a year.  It's right here in black and white!"
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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2014, 10:48:52 AM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

Agreeing to disagree on that point is one thing, but it still doesn't address the issue of why Yahweh would get so worried about the Tower and/or what Mankind might be able to accomplish if not stopped from continuing the project if he was not susceptible to some sort of loss of power as a result of it.

And, further, since his whole solution of confounding the languages has now been overcome, and buildings built which would make anything put together of brick & mortar in Biblical times look like tinkertoys (to say nothing of endeavors such as sending people into space, well into Yahweh's supposed realm), maybe his fears have actually come to pass. After all, he hasn't been nearly as communicative in the past couple of thousand years as he was back in OT times.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2014, 12:54:30 PM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

So if Yahweh didn't mean that people would destroy him....what was he afraid of? Why did he have to separate languages? What was the purpose of this?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2014, 04:11:35 PM »
If God does exist it means he can't not exist.

I do not accept this.  Please explain/ demonstrate why I should think this is so.  It seems to me this is said by the religious simply because they want it to be.  Or because they have defined the idea of god thus.....
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

As I've already made clear, with the way you see the Bible describing god, it does away with the hypothetical of its existence. I suppose it's convenient that the OP doesn't request proof because that then leaves room for you to just assume that god can't not exist without so much as a morsel of an explanation.

I also see this as a good example of how theological apologetic arguments are used to fit the existing belief that god exists, as though the argument was useless without this a priori assumption.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2014, 04:40:05 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

It seems to me that any implications that god has to exist is so obviously hyperbole.  So if we get to accept what you're saying here, then you'll have to accept that, just because the descriptions say god has to exist, doesn't necessarily make it so.

Either take the entire text literally or justify why claims of has to exist should be taken as such.
We were asked in the OP whether YHWH can be destroyed if he does indeed exist. Part of the character of YHWH, i.e. the God described in the bible, is that he cannot not exist. So the answer to the OP is dead simple. It is, "No".

The OP is not asking whether YHWH does exist.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2014, 04:42:22 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

No, the most you've got here is, "If Yahweh exists, then his propaganda literature says he cannot not exist."  Yahweh makes all manner of grandiose claims for himself (and presumably "inspires" his press secretaries to do so on his behalf), but the narrative passages of the Bible, which portray him (and his human and spiritual enemies) in action do not support those claims, as I demonstrated in my previous post....
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2014, 04:54:46 AM »
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?

In Genesis 11:1-9, The Tower of Babel...."6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2014, 08:16:07 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

No, the most you've got here is, "If Yahweh exists, then his propaganda literature says he cannot not exist."  Yahweh makes all manner of grandiose claims for himself (and presumably "inspires" his press secretaries to do so on his behalf), but the narrative passages of the Bible, which portray him (and his human and spiritual enemies) in action do not support those claims, as I demonstrated in my previous post....
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?
Where, precisely and unequivocally, does it say that he can't? Or is it another one of those things which is subject to interpretation?

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2014, 10:47:16 AM »
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?

In Genesis 11:1-9, The Tower of Babel...."6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.."
See #90.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #101 on: April 21, 2014, 01:08:15 AM »
And #94 Black Dwarf...?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #102 on: April 21, 2014, 08:49:05 AM »
We were asked in the OP whether YHWH can be destroyed if he does indeed exist. Part of the character of YHWH, i.e. the God described in the bible, is that he cannot not exist. So the answer to the OP is dead simple. It is, "No".

The OP is not asking whether YHWH does exist.
I've been assuming that the existence of YHWH was a given in this thread.

My point is that if one aspect of what god says can be spun as "he (or the biblical writers) didn't quite mean that", then other aspects of what god says can be spun in a similar fashion.

"God didn't mean that humans can do absolutely anything."
"God didn't mean that he absolutely cannot not exist."

If you play the "well, it doesn't mean that" card, then that card can be played by others.
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Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2014, 03:41:41 AM »
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?

In Genesis 11:1-9, The Tower of Babel...."6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.."
Hmm. That would seem an overly literal understanding of that verse. Bearing in mind that Jesus said that nothing is impossible for God (Luke 1:37), e.g. stopping people of the same language from destroying him, then it would seem that one or more of the following are true:

1) Jesus got it wrong.
2) Jesus was contradicting Genesis 11:6.
3) A bit of common sense needs applying to our reading of Genesis 11:6.

In case this seems like a cop out, may I point out that if it were meant to be taken totally literally, then it would mean that people restricted to speaking the same language would be able to speak different languages too and that is a logical contradiction. It would also mean that they could exist while not existing. It seems to me that a bit of common sense is called for.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2014, 03:48:23 AM »
The OP starts, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?" The OP does not request proof that the Christian God exists. Throughout the OT and NT there is the understanding, perhaps even the assumption, that God exists and has to exist. So if the God described by the bible exists then he cannot not exist.

No, the most you've got here is, "If Yahweh exists, then his propaganda literature says he cannot not exist."  Yahweh makes all manner of grandiose claims for himself (and presumably "inspires" his press secretaries to do so on his behalf), but the narrative passages of the Bible, which portray him (and his human and spiritual enemies) in action do not support those claims, as I demonstrated in my previous post....
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?
Where, precisely and unequivocally, does it say that he can't? Or is it another one of those things which is subject to interpretation?
An example would be 1 Timothy 1:17 where God is described as "aphthartos 1) uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable ... 2) immortal ..." (See notes in NET Bible at https://lumina.bible.org/bible/1+Timothy+1)

Edit: Deleted the Greek characters used in writing aphthartos as they came out wrong on my screen.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 03:51:48 AM by Black Dwarf »

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2014, 03:50:41 AM »
We were asked in the OP whether YHWH can be destroyed if he does indeed exist. Part of the character of YHWH, i.e. the God described in the bible, is that he cannot not exist. So the answer to the OP is dead simple. It is, "No".

The OP is not asking whether YHWH does exist.
I've been assuming that the existence of YHWH was a given in this thread.

My point is that if one aspect of what god says can be spun as "he (or the biblical writers) didn't quite mean that", then other aspects of what god says can be spun in a similar fashion.

"God didn't mean that humans can do absolutely anything."
"God didn't mean that he absolutely cannot not exist."

If you play the "well, it doesn't mean that" card, then that card can be played by others.
Let's not spin things then, but rather look and see if we can understand the text in the manner intended by the author, just like you and I are trying to do with each other's posts.

Offline screwtape

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2014, 07:37:52 AM »
Hmm. That would seem an overly literal understanding of that verse. Bearing in mind that Jesus said that nothing is impossible for God (Luke 1:37), e.g. stopping people of the same language from destroying him, then it would seem that one or more of the following are true:

1) Jesus got it wrong.
2) Jesus was contradicting Genesis 11:6.
3) A bit of common sense needs applying to our reading of Genesis 11:6.

In case this seems like a cop out, may I point out that if it were meant to be taken totally literally, then it would mean that people restricted to speaking the same language would be able to speak different languages too and that is a logical contradiction. It would also mean that they could exist while not existing. It seems to me that a bit of common sense is called for.

So what's the common sense answer?  How are jesus H and gen 11:6 both correct?   And how do you know what is "overly literal"?  What guides you as to what degree of literalness is called for?

Your post seems to have just petered out before delivering.
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Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2014, 09:23:19 AM »
Hmm. That would seem an overly literal understanding of that verse. Bearing in mind that Jesus said that nothing is impossible for God (Luke 1:37), e.g. stopping people of the same language from destroying him, then it would seem that one or more of the following are true:

1) Jesus got it wrong.
2) Jesus was contradicting Genesis 11:6.
3) A bit of common sense needs applying to our reading of Genesis 11:6.

In case this seems like a cop out, may I point out that if it were meant to be taken totally literally, then it would mean that people restricted to speaking the same language would be able to speak different languages too and that is a logical contradiction. It would also mean that they could exist while not existing. It seems to me that a bit of common sense is called for.

So what's the common sense answer?  How are jesus H and gen 11:6 both correct?   And how do you know what is "overly literal"?  What guides you as to what degree of literalness is called for?

Your post seems to have just petered out before delivering.
The common sense answer seems, to me at least, that Genesis 11:6 no more meant "be able to destroy God" than it means "be able to exist while not existing". The latter is logically impossible and the latter is at odds with the rest of the bible where the picture of God throughout is one of him being eternal, pre-existent, the cause of all that there is (except himself). Stuff like that.

How would you understand what a common sense answer is?

Offline screwtape

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2014, 11:08:38 AM »
There could be several.

First, it could be that genesis is portraying a vulnerable god who is panicked.  This would not be the first time it does this.  We see yhwh lose his shit earlier when Eve and her slow witted mate gain moral knowledge.  You can just about hear the panic in yhwh's voice when he says "they are like us!"  Then, after running around with his hair on fire, he makes them mortal, kicks them out of eden and places armed guards at the door.  Talk about over reacting.

So in Babel, when he says "nothing is impossible", he does not literally mean that.  It is more of an expression of his own insecurity and fear.  Sort of a, "great googly-moogly, anything can happen!" kind of statement, as hysterical people are wont to do.  One that reflects a powerful, but not omnimax, god who is genuinely worried about losing his position of hegemony.  They had built the tower almost up to heaven, afterall.  What if they then went in?  There would be people all over the joint.  Can't have that.

From a common sense stand point, what do we really know about yhwh anyway?  Only what he or his propagandists tell us.  So all this jibba-jab about how good and powerful he is ought to be taken with a grain of salt.  Maybe he's a douchebag without that much power?  For all we know he could be just flat out evil.  Based on his current activity I'd say he definitely lacks power.  And based on what the OT says about him, I'd say douchebag is an apt description. If yhwh really is vulnerable, then he has every reason in the world to portray himself as invincible.

Second, we have the jesus end of it.  His portrayal is inconsistent.  Is that intentional?  Is it due to several writers working on one character?  Like the question of whether Hamlet was crazy or crazy like a fox, it is up to us to figure out who/ what jesus H is.  If jesus H was a nut, then what he has to say means nothing and can be discarded.  He believed he was yhwy or the son/ agent of yhwh, which makes him a propagandist.  If he was some weird meat-puppet of yhwh, then there is still no reason to believe him.  It is just more self aggrandizment and positive PR. 

And if we are jumping around the bible, then we have the story where Jake wrestled god and won.  A man went head to head with god and kicked his ass.

So in the end, I'd say the god of the bible (as opposed to the god of theologians) would be vulnerable.


 
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Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2014, 11:42:03 AM »
There could be several.

First, it could be that genesis is portraying a vulnerable god who is panicked.  This would not be the first time it does this.  We see yhwh lose his shit earlier when Eve and her slow witted mate gain moral knowledge.  You can just about hear the panic in yhwh's voice when he says "they are like us!"  Then, after running around with his hair on fire, he makes them mortal, kicks them out of eden and places armed guards at the door.  Talk about over reacting.

So in Babel, when he says "nothing is impossible", he does not literally mean that.  It is more of an expression of his own insecurity and fear.  Sort of a, "great googly-moogly, anything can happen!" kind of statement, as hysterical people are wont to do.  One that reflects a powerful, but not omnimax, god who is genuinely worried about losing his position of hegemony.  They had built the tower almost up to heaven, afterall.  What if they then went in?  There would be people all over the joint.  Can't have that.

From a common sense stand point, what do we really know about yhwh anyway?  Only what he or his propagandists tell us.  So all this jibba-jab about how good and powerful he is ought to be taken with a grain of salt.  Maybe he's a douchebag without that much power?  For all we know he could be just flat out evil.  Based on his current activity I'd say he definitely lacks power.  And based on what the OT says about him, I'd say douchebag is an apt description. If yhwh really is vulnerable, then he has every reason in the world to portray himself as invincible.

Second, we have the jesus end of it.  His portrayal is inconsistent.  Is that intentional?  Is it due to several writers working on one character?  Like the question of whether Hamlet was crazy or crazy like a fox, it is up to us to figure out who/ what jesus H is.  If jesus H was a nut, then what he has to say means nothing and can be discarded.  He believed he was yhwy or the son/ agent of yhwh, which makes him a propagandist.  If he was some weird meat-puppet of yhwh, then there is still no reason to believe him.  It is just more self aggrandizment and positive PR. 

And if we are jumping around the bible, then we have the story where Jake wrestled god and won.  A man went head to head with god and kicked his ass.

So in the end, I'd say the god of the bible (as opposed to the god of theologians) would be vulnerable.
Fair enough. That's your view and mine is somewhat different.

One question. What do you mean by "Jesus H"? I'm fairly new here. I take it that "Jesus H" is not just a typo.

Offline One Above All

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2014, 11:43:52 AM »
One question. What do you mean by "Jesus H"? I'm fairly new here. I take it that "Jesus H" is not just a typo.

You don't know?
Such a christian... &)

I'm just kidding. Google it and you'll find out.
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2014, 12:22:35 PM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

So if Yahweh didn't mean that people would destroy him....what was he afraid of? Why did he have to separate languages? What was the purpose of this?

If I can remind you of this post BD. What was Yahweh afraid of?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2014, 12:25:57 PM »
So where does the bible say God can be destroyed?

In Genesis 11:1-9, The Tower of Babel...."6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.."
Hmm. That would seem an overly literal understanding of that verse. Bearing in mind that Jesus said that nothing is impossible for God (Luke 1:37), e.g. stopping people of the same language from destroying him, then it would seem that one or more of the following are true:

1) Jesus got it wrong.
2) Jesus was contradicting Genesis 11:6.
3) A bit of common sense needs applying to our reading of Genesis 11:6.

In case this seems like a cop out, may I point out that if it were meant to be taken totally literally, then it would mean that people restricted to speaking the same language would be able to speak different languages too and that is a logical contradiction. It would also mean that they could exist while not existing. It seems to me that a bit of common sense is called for.

Could you please tell me how you know this verse is not meant to be taken literally but the one about a talking Donkey is?
I take it a young Earth isn't meant to be taken literally? Or the Genesis creation myth? Or a man rising up from the dead?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2014, 12:28:06 PM »
One question. What do you mean by "Jesus H"? I'm fairly new here. I take it that "Jesus H" is not just a typo.

You don't know?
Such a christian... &)

I'm just kidding. Google it and you'll find out.
Ah, right. Ta.

Offline Black Dwarf

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2014, 12:48:32 PM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

So if Yahweh didn't mean that people would destroy him....what was he afraid of? Why did he have to separate languages? What was the purpose of this?

If I can remind you of this post BD.
Yes. Fine. I haven't been around for a while. Remind me of anything else I've missed,please?
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What was Yahweh afraid of?
Nothing.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2014, 01:01:52 PM »
Just to revisit the whole Tower of Babel incident, since that seems to hold more relevance to the OP than some of the tangents the thread has taken:

The gist of it is, still, that Yahweh was definitely able to feel threatened by man's plans. Of course, it also points to the probability that the whole story is a purely human construct, invented by minds for whom the idea of any structure much higher than, say, a mountain, would take them to the realms of the "heavens" in which god resided. But be that as it may, it tells us that Yahweh was nervous enough about the project that whether or not "nothing shall be impossible for them" literally meant nothing, it was still worrisome enough for Yahweh to feel he had to thwart it.

And how does he do that? By confounding the languages. Which, again, if looked at from a purely human standpoint probably felt like a pretty insurmountable challenge to people with little enough knowledge of other languages that they seemed incomprehensible. But, for a being like god, it seems very short-sighted. Did he really think that people could not learn each other's tongues, and produce translations for those without the ambition, time or knack for doing so themselves? And, for that matter, how far would his message have spread had his plan worked? Or was it always intended to be only for his chosen people?

In any case, the most important point here is that Yahweh, according to the Bible, IS quite capable of feeling threatened. And, for an omnipotent being to get that nervous about his creation's plans suggests that the threat is real enough for him to be destroyed. Or, if not destroyed, then at least rendered impotent, which more or less amounts to the same thing if one is a deity.
OK, we may well have to agree to disagree. It seems to me that it is so obvious that YHWH did not mean "absolutely everything including destroying me" in that statement in Genesis that it was not included. If it had meant "including destroying me" then it would be totally at variance with the rest of Genesis and the rest of OT and also the NT.

So if Yahweh didn't mean that people would destroy him....what was he afraid of? Why did he have to separate languages? What was the purpose of this?

If I can remind you of this post BD.
Yes. Fine. I haven't been around for a while. Remind me of anything else I've missed,please?
Quote
What was Yahweh afraid of?
Nothing.

I suppose I could have just replied, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Yaweh was afraid of nothing...so he confounded the peoples languages...because he was what? Capricious? Insane? Evil? Malevolent? Just an imaginary myth?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.