Author Topic: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?  (Read 2193 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11041
  • Darwins +285/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2014, 11:45:15 AM »
How?

Not sure if Ron Jeremy was talking of physical laws or moral ones, so I'll address both.

Physical laws:
Toss an object with speed X while traveling at speed Y according to a random frame of reference, and the object will be traveling at speed Z, where Z = X + Y. Except when you you go very quickly. And if the object is light.
A neutron/proton/electron/whatever is a particle. Except when it isn't.
A photon is a wave. Except when it isn't.
Time does not speed up or slow down. Except when you're traveling at high enough speed.[1]

Moral laws:
YHWH loves everyone. Except homosexuals, atheists, followers of other religions, sinners of all kinds, children of sinners, children of children of sinners, children of children of children of sinners, Adam and Eve, women menstruating, people it sends to Hell...
Do not kill. Except homosexuals, atheists, followers of other religions, sinners of all kinds...
Be free. Except if you want to do things YHWH says not to.
Be smart. Except when that intelligence leads you away from YHWH.

Need I go on?
 1. I'm willing to grant that this one isn't technically true. Time dilation occurs even when speeds are low; the effects just aren't important. I'm just saying this to see if you'll address the entirety of my post instead of focusing on the one thing you can "debunk", as theists often do.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Darwins +60/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2014, 12:58:37 PM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?

Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

........And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

Not only do the creation stories contradict each other. As BD and I found, the bible says Yahweh can't not exist and it also allows us to destroy him.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2014, 01:48:14 PM »
Yes, I see your point. However, one of the properties of the biblical God is that he is not contingent, that he cannot not exist. Whether the biblical God exists is an entirely separate matter, but the OP said, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?". If he does exist, then he can't be destroyed. As you seem to suggest, that comes from the definition (or, at least, the description) used in the OP.

Having god unable to not not exist makes a nonsense of the hypothetical "if god exists", because this leaves the door open for god not existing. The two positions cancel each other out.
No, they don't. You seem to have misunderstood what is being said. If God does exist it means he can't not exist. If he doesn't exist then, well, he doesn't exist.

No, I understand fine. If you are having to turn gods existence into a hypothetical, then you have no grounds on claiming that existence is necessary. If god cannot not exist, then it doesn't not exist. There is no "if it doesn't exist".
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6702
  • Darwins +534/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2014, 02:23:21 PM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?
I'm really surprised that, as you are a graduate, you have no idea as to the answer to this question. Go on! Have a think. Use your brain and education, my taxes paid for the latter - I want value for money, and so far, you are disappointing me.

However, for the sake of helping you realise the truth, everything in the Bible, which is the only certain source of God's word, is based upon man's knowledge of the universe as it was at the time it was written[1]. Any development, any progress, any knowledge after about 200AD is not included. The result is a very strange universe by today's standards. The sun goes round the earth[2] The sun can be stopped in the sky[3]. The Fountains of the deep are below the earth[4]. There are windows in heaven where the rain comes in; the stars are set in a firmament that you can walk on, etc. etc.

There are mind-dumbing apologists who purport to be able to explain the ridiculous crudity of the Iron Age Palestinian image of the universe that the Bible presents, but you must bear in mind that God never, ever had a useful word to say on science. Jesus himself, unaware of the bacteria that his dad produces advises against washing your hands before eating food with your fingers - And this character claims to "raise the dead and cure the sick" You'd have to be deluded to believe that, wouldn't you?

A being that is supposed to know everything has left us with a detailed cure for leprosy that is ineffective and positively dangerous. We now know how to cure leprosy - Yahweh is ignorant despite having created the bacterium that causes it.

You believe this god is real...

Tell me, God probably speaks to you: is He going to update the Bible any time soon?
 1. That is how we know that it wasn't "inspired by God" - if it were, he would have got it right.
 2. who created the sun and the earth and why didn't they kniw what they had done?
 3. have you any idea what would happen?
 4. What does that even mean?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:05:18 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2014, 02:17:57 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
 
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2014, 08:04:26 AM »
How?

Not sure if Ron Jeremy was talking of physical laws or moral ones, so I'll address both.

Physical laws:
Toss an object with speed X while traveling at speed Y according to a random frame of reference, and the object will be traveling at speed Z, where Z = X + Y. Except when you you go very quickly. And if the object is light.
A neutron/proton/electron/whatever is a particle. Except when it isn't.
A photon is a wave. Except when it isn't.
Time does not speed up or slow down. Except when you're traveling at high enough speed.[1]
 1. I'm willing to grant that this one isn't technically true. Time dilation occurs even when speeds are low; the effects just aren't important. I'm just saying this to see if you'll address the entirety of my post instead of focusing on the one thing you can "debunk", as theists often do.
Eh? Those are not contradictions, except perhaps in the way you have explained them (the "not technically true" bit).
Quote

Moral laws:
YHWH loves everyone. Except homosexuals, atheists, followers of other religions, sinners of all kinds, children of sinners, children of children of sinners, children of children of children of sinners, Adam and Eve, women menstruating, people it sends to Hell...
Do not kill. Except homosexuals, atheists, followers of other religions, sinners of all kinds...
Be free. Except if you want to do things YHWH says not to.
Be smart. Except when that intelligence leads you away from YHWH.

Need I go on?
Perhaps you would like to state the case in one or more of those examples. You've made some claims, so it would be good for you to put them clearly so we can then see if they are correct.

Ta.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2014, 08:11:10 AM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?

Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

........And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

Not only do the creation stories contradict each other. As BD and I found, the bible says Yahweh can't not exist and it also allows us to destroy him.
Are you aware that the creation account in Genesis 1 is a sort of overview of creation and the account in Genesis 2 is covering different material, concentrating on mankind itself.

Are you assuming I'm a Young Earth Creationist. I realise that is very popular in the States, but, particularly outside the States, many evangelicals are not.

If you have time to listen or read, Ernest Lucas explains such stuff better than I can, him being a lecturer in Hebrew (and an ex (bio?)-chemist) with two PhDs.

A quick summary in PDF format: http://www.faraday.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/resources/Faraday%20Papers/Faraday%20Paper%2011%20Lucas_EN.pdf
MP3: Search on "Lucas" at http://www.faraday.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/Multimedia.php

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2014, 08:13:45 AM »
Yes, I see your point. However, one of the properties of the biblical God is that he is not contingent, that he cannot not exist. Whether the biblical God exists is an entirely separate matter, but the OP said, "As the title says, if he exists, can Biblegod be destroyed?". If he does exist, then he can't be destroyed. As you seem to suggest, that comes from the definition (or, at least, the description) used in the OP.

Having god unable to not not exist makes a nonsense of the hypothetical "if god exists", because this leaves the door open for god not existing. The two positions cancel each other out.
No, they don't. You seem to have misunderstood what is being said. If God does exist it means he can't not exist. If he doesn't exist then, well, he doesn't exist.

No, I understand fine. If you are having to turn gods existence into a hypothetical, then you have no grounds on claiming that existence is necessary. If god cannot not exist, then it doesn't not exist. There is no "if it doesn't exist".
OK, let's rephrase it. I am of the firm opinion that the Christian God exists, which I don't suppose will come as much of a shock to you.

If we come to realise, to understand that the Christian God does exist, then it means he cannot not exist, i.e. he is not contingent. He cannot be destroyed.

It may be that I am wrong, but that was not the scenario in the OP.

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Darwins +60/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2014, 08:43:07 AM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?

Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

........And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

Not only do the creation stories contradict each other. As BD and I found, the bible says Yahweh can't not exist and it also allows us to destroy him.
Are you aware that the creation account in Genesis 1 is a sort of overview of creation and the account in Genesis 2 is covering different material, concentrating on mankind itself.


The two Genesis accounts contradict each other. Regardless of which point of view either story takes, they contradict each other. This is a fact. This is in black and white in the bible. No way round this. Pure and simply, a contradiction.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Darwins +60/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2014, 08:44:08 AM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?
I'm really surprised that, as you are a graduate, you have no idea as to the answer to this question. Go on! Have a think. Use your brain and education, my taxes paid for the latter - I want value for money, and so far, you are disappointing me.

However, for the sake of helping you realise the truth, everything in the Bible, which is the only certain source of God's word, is based upon man's knowledge of the universe as it was at the time it was written[1]. Any development, any progress, any knowledge after about 200AD is not included. The result is a very strange universe by today's standards. The sun goes round the earth[2] The sun can be stopped in the sky[3]. The Fountains of the deep are below the earth[4]. There are windows in heaven where the rain comes in; the stars are set in a firmament that you can walk on, etc. etc.

There are mind-dumbing apologists who purport to be able to explain the ridiculous crudity of the Iron Age Palestinian image of the universe that the Bible presents, but you must bear in mind that God never, ever had a useful word to say on science. Jesus himself, unaware of the bacteria that his dad produces advises against washing your hands before eating food with your fingers - And this character claims to "raise the dead and cure the sick" You'd have to be deluded to believe that, wouldn't you?

A being that is supposed to know everything has left us with a detailed cure for leprosy that is ineffective and positively dangerous. We now know how to cure leprosy - Yahweh is ignorant despite having created the bacterium that causes it.

You believe this god is real...

Tell me, God probably speaks to you: is He going to update the Bible any time soon?
 1. That is how we know that it wasn't "inspired by God" - if it were, he would have got it right.
 2. who created the sun and the earth and why didn't they kniw what they had done?
 3. have you any idea what would happen?
 4. What does that even mean?

Graybeard; I thought you were going to edit this?!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2014, 09:35:17 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful, it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2014, 09:49:40 AM »
OK, let's rephrase it. I am of the firm opinion that the Christian God exists, which I don't suppose will come as much of a shock to you.

If we come to realise, to understand that the Christian God does exist, then it means he cannot not exist, i.e. he is not contingent. He cannot be destroyed.

It may be that I am wrong, but that was not the scenario in the OP.

That makes slightly more sense, although you seem to be saying that god cannot not exist when we come to realise and understand it. I wouldn't think you were trying to state that gods ability to not exist was contingent on that, and that god cannot not exist regardless of our understanding.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2014, 09:55:03 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful

Don't you mean when some Christians speak of god, or more specifically when you do?

Quote
...it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

What is it that deems things to be logically im/possible, only you are inadvertantly stating that god's abilities are contingent on logic?

To add as a side, you should have a chat with Lukvance, who seems to think god works with a different logic. Perhaps he is more willing to take heed from a theist in explaining how this is nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 09:58:56 AM by Ataraxia »
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +374/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2014, 10:24:06 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful, it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

Why not just drop the omnipotent/all-powerful terminology?  Why not just go with 'most powerful'?  While you're at it, change the phrase 'all things are possible with god'.  Try 'all things that are not outside of the limitations of god's abilities are possible with god,' which, while redundant, would at least lead to less confusion.

Just to kind of minimize the amount of interpretation that needs to be done with Christian doctrine.  Lop off the hyperbole and just be direct.  You know - just say what you mean.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2014, 10:31:01 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful

Don't you mean when some Christians speak of god, or more specifically when you do?
I'm sure there are some Christians who would not say that, but it is a general understanding amongst Christians that I know personally and among those I have read (who have spoken about that sort of thing).
Quote

Quote
...it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

What is it that deems things to be logically im/possible, only you are inadvertantly stating that god's abilities are contingent on logic?
What deems things to be that? A theist would see it as springing from God's nature. So it is rather that logic depends on God's nature so God's abilities depend on God's nature rather than some external logic.
Quote

To add as a side, you should have a chat with Lukvance, who seems to think god works with a different logic. Perhaps he is more willing to take heed from a theist in explaining how this is nonsense.
Shall do at some point.

I'm not sure how often I'll be on this board. I tend to hang out at religionandethics.co.uk more.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2014, 10:34:10 AM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful, it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

Why not just drop the omnipotent/all-powerful terminology?  Why not just go with 'most powerful'?
Probably because that doesn't convey the idea that God can do anything consistent with his nature.
Quote
While you're at it, change the phrase 'all things are possible with god'.  Try 'all things that are not outside of the limitations of god's abilities are possible with god,' which, while redundant, would at least lead to less confusion.
Agreed. If there is any confusion about that, I would say, "All things which are not in conflict with his nature". "Outside the limitations of God's abilities" leaves it open to the question of "What are the limitations of God's abilities."
Quote

Just to kind of minimize the amount of interpretation that needs to be done with Christian doctrine.  Lop off the hyperbole and just be direct.  You know - just say what you mean.
That is my preferred style, but then there are other people who work differently. Touchy-feely types, for example.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2014, 10:38:48 AM »
...However as we've discovered in the debate, the rules of YHWH's universe contradict each other.
How?
I'm really surprised that, as you are a graduate, you have no idea as to the answer to this question. Go on! Have a think. Use your brain and education, my taxes paid for the latter - I want value for money, and so far, you are disappointing me.
Sorry about that.
Quote

However, for the sake of helping you realise the truth, everything in the Bible, which is the only certain source of God's word, is based upon man's knowledge of the universe as it was at the time it was written[1]. Any development, any progress, any knowledge after about 200AD is not included. The result is a very strange universe by today's standards. The sun goes round the earth[2] The sun can be stopped in the sky[3]. The Fountains of the deep are below the earth[4]. There are windows in heaven where the rain comes in; the stars are set in a firmament that you can walk on, etc. etc.
 1. That is how we know that it wasn't "inspired by God" - if it were, he would have got it right.
 2. who created the sun and the earth and why didn't they kniw what they had done?
 3. have you any idea what would happen?
 4. What does that even mean?
So you are someone who thinks all that poetry stuff should be taken literally, a sort of Young Earth Atheist?
Quote

There are mind-dumbing apologists who purport to be able to explain the ridiculous crudity of the Iron Age Palestinian image of the universe that the Bible presents, but you must bear in mind that God never, ever had a useful word to say on science.
Nor does my wife's cookery book. That isn't the purpose of the book.
Quote
Jesus himself, unaware of the bacteria that his dad produces advises against washing your hands before eating food with your fingers
That's new to me. Where does he say that, please?
Quote
- And this character claims to "raise the dead and cure the sick" You'd have to be deluded to believe that, wouldn't you?
Hmm, you are a bit aggressive, aren't you.
Quote

A being that is supposed to know everything has left us with a detailed cure for leprosy that is ineffective and positively dangerous. We now know how to cure leprosy - Yahweh is ignorant despite having created the bacterium that causes it.

You believe this god is real...

Tell me, God probably speaks to you: is He going to update the Bible any time soon?
Not that I'm aware of.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +374/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2014, 11:14:24 AM »
Why not just drop the omnipotent/all-powerful terminology?  Why not just go with 'most powerful'?
Probably because that doesn't convey the idea that God can do anything consistent with his nature.
That doesn't really work.  'Omnipotent' certainly doesn't convey the idea either.  And it does so in a worse way.

'Omnipotent' implies that god can do things that he cannot do.  It implies that god has no limitations, which is implying something positively incorrect about god.
'Most powerful' merely raises the question of what god's limitations are.  It does not imply any positively incorrect information regarding god.  It simultaneously succeeds in establishing that there are no other entities that have as much or more power/ability than god, and establishes that there are indeed some limits to those powers/abilities.

But even besides all of that - can you provide of an example of an entity that can't do anything consistent with its nature?  Because I know you're not just saying "x cannot do what x cannot do" - that's just obvious.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2014, 11:45:27 AM »
Why not just drop the omnipotent/all-powerful terminology?  Why not just go with 'most powerful'?
Probably because that doesn't convey the idea that God can do anything consistent with his nature.
That doesn't really work.  'Omnipotent' certainly doesn't convey the idea either.  And it does so in a worse way.
Which is one reason I usually use the term "all-powerful", but even when Christians use the term "omnipotent" they are, hopefully, willing to explain what they mean (if they have thought about it).
Quote

'Omnipotent' implies that god can do things that he cannot do.  It implies that god has no limitations, which is implying something positively incorrect about god.
No, it doesn't, not unless you have assumed that to be the case. Ask a Christian, "Can God sin?" They might have a think and might come up with, "Well, not sure, but he won't sin." There will be some sort of limitation seen to exist. Actually, I suppose it is more a case of God freely choosing to not sin.
Quote
'Most powerful' merely raises the question of what god's limitations are.  It does not imply any positively incorrect information regarding god.  It simultaneously succeeds in establishing that there are no other entities that have as much or more power/ability than god, and establishes that there are indeed some limits to those powers/abilities.
Fair enough.
Quote

But even besides all of that - can you provide of an example of an entity that can't do anything consistent with its nature?  Because I know you're not just saying "x cannot do what x cannot do" - that's just obvious.
No, but Christians will be aware that God's nature includes being loving, just, powerful, kind, etc.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +374/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2014, 11:58:37 AM »
That doesn't really work.  'Omnipotent' certainly doesn't convey the idea either.  And it does so in a worse way.
Which is one reason I usually use the term "all-powerful", but even when Christians use the term "omnipotent" they are, hopefully, willing to explain what they mean (if they have thought about it).
Honestly, 'all-powerful' doesn't skirt the issue.  It's your belief structure and all, so you're free to use whatever terminology you deem most fit.  I'm just expressing why I don't think fits as well as you seem to think it does.

Quote
Quote
'Omnipotent' implies that god can do things that he cannot do.  It implies that god has no limitations, which is implying something positively incorrect about god.
No, it doesn't, not unless you have assumed that to be the case. Ask a Christian, "Can God sin?" They might have a think and might come up with, "Well, not sure, but he won't sin." There will be some sort of limitation seen to exist. Actually, I suppose it is more a case of God freely choosing to not sin.
I know we're talking semantics and what not, but, I'm sorry, but 'omnipotent' really does imply what I'm saying it implies.  It certainly explains why there are Christians or followers of an entity they refer to as 'omnipotent' and mean it to say that this entity can, in fact, do the impossible.

Quote
No, but Christians will be aware that God's nature includes being loving, just, powerful, kind, etc.
It just seems then that the statement "god can do anything consistent with his nature" is pretty vacuous and devoid of information beyond the blatantly obvious.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2014, 12:15:17 PM »
....
I know we're talking semantics and what not, but, I'm sorry, but 'omnipotent' really does imply what I'm saying it implies.  It certainly explains why there are Christians or followers of an entity they refer to as 'omnipotent' and mean it to say that this entity can, in fact, do the impossible.
That's a contradiction in terms, though, isn't it. No-one can do the impossible since the impossible is stuff no-one can do. :)
Quote
It just seems then that the statement "god can do anything consistent with his nature" is pretty vacuous and devoid of information beyond the blatantly obvious.
But some people can't see the blatantly obvious (cue quip from someone about Christians and God not existing?).

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2091
  • Darwins +374/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2014, 12:21:17 PM »
....
I know we're talking semantics and what not, but, I'm sorry, but 'omnipotent' really does imply what I'm saying it implies.  It certainly explains why there are Christians or followers of an entity they refer to as 'omnipotent' and mean it to say that this entity can, in fact, do the impossible.
That's a contradiction in terms, though, isn't it. No-one can do the impossible since the impossible is stuff no-one can do. :)
You'll have to take that up with the ones who do not see that as the case.  In my experience, most of the time they support it with "because god is omnipotent, therefore he can do anything."

Quote
Quote
It just seems then that the statement "god can do anything consistent with his nature" is pretty vacuous and devoid of information beyond the blatantly obvious.
But some people can't see the blatantly obvious (cue quip from someone about Christians and God not existing?).
If you're in a conversation where you're needing to establish the truth value of the statement "x can do what x can do" or "x will behave the way x behaves," then you're either arguing with Deepak Chopra, a solipsist, or an abstract mathematician on Sally D.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2014, 12:29:51 PM »
If Biblegod cannot not exist, this means it cannot destroy itself. That puts a bit of a dint in its all powerful/omnipotent nature, don't you think?
Nope. When a Christian speaks of God being omnipotent or all-powerful

Don't you mean when some Christians speak of god, or more specifically when you do?
I'm sure there are some Christians who would not say that, but it is a general understanding amongst Christians that I know personally and among those I have read (who have spoken about that sort of thing).

Ok. Your understanding is not unfamiliar to me. I find it a bit of a misnomer, but it's a quibble unworthy of bothering about. If you mean it this way then that's how you should be taken on it. However, it doesn't alter the fact that it's an ability god doesn't have.

Quote
Quote
Quote
...it does not mean God being able to do logical impossibilities or going against his own nature, e.g. sinning.

What is it that deems things to be logically im/possible, only you are inadvertantly stating that god's abilities are contingent on logic?
What deems things to be that? A theist would see it as springing from God's nature. So it is rather that logic depends on God's nature so God's abilities depend on God's nature rather than some external logic.

I second jdawg's comment about the statement being vacuous etc. it's just a tautology that doesn't tell us anything. Yes, the OP asked if the god of the Bible could be destroyed and your answer was no because it cannot not exist, but from there we've heard zip as to any reasoning or evidence as to how or why this is so. If you expect it to be seen as a valid answer, perhaps you could expand....
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2014, 12:41:01 PM »
.....

I second jdawg's comment about the statement being vacuous etc. it's just a tautology that doesn't tell us anything. Yes, the OP asked if the god of the Bible could be destroyed and your answer was no because it cannot not exist, but from there we've heard zip as to any reasoning or evidence as to how or why this is so. If you expect it to be seen as a valid answer, perhaps you could expand....
That would require me to convince you that the Christian God does exist, which is a slightly bigger task than answering this thread's OP!

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11041
  • Darwins +285/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2014, 01:32:30 PM »
Eh? Those are not contradictions, except perhaps in the way you have explained them (the "not technically true" bit).

*sigh*
I don't know why I bother with the footnotes if theists are just going to ignore them. If it weren't (most likely) against the rules and highly annoying to anyone reading it, I'd type everything in big, bold letters for you.
Those are physical laws that apply under certain circumstances, but not others. They contradict each other. It's like relativity and Newtonian physics.

Perhaps you would like to state the case in one or more of those examples. You've made some claims, so it would be good for you to put them clearly so we can then see if they are correct.

Ever read the Bible?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Black Dwarf

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 88
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2014, 02:11:48 PM »
Eh? Those are not contradictions, except perhaps in the way you have explained them (the "not technically true" bit).

*sigh*
I don't know why I bother with the footnotes if theists are just going to ignore them. If it weren't (most likely) against the rules and highly annoying to anyone reading it, I'd type everything in big, bold letters for you.
Those are physical laws that apply under certain circumstances, but not others. They contradict each other.
That's not how I understand those particular things. Physical laws apply under all circumstances within the universe.
Quote
It's like relativity and Newtonian physics.
Newtonian physics is a very good approximation at low speeds, but not high speeds.
Quote

Perhaps you would like to state the case in one or more of those examples. You've made some claims, so it would be good for you to put them clearly so we can then see if they are correct.

Ever read the Bible?
Yes, but would hope you would give an example, which we could look at to see if you are right in your claims.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 02:16:41 PM by Black Dwarf »

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11041
  • Darwins +285/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2014, 02:41:39 PM »
That's not how I understand those particular things. Physical laws apply under all circumstances within the universe.

Not really. Take gravity, for example. Once you get down to atomic scale, you can toss gravity out the window. Might as well take into account time dilation when you're moving at 0.0000000000000001 mm/s.

Newtonian physics is a very good approximation at low speeds, but not high speeds.

It's actually valid for small speeds and distances, but not large speeds and distances. That's when relativity kicks in.

Anyway, seeing as how this wasn't Ron Jeremy's point, I think we can drop it.

Yes, but would hope you would give an example, which we could look at to see if you are right in your claims.

I can take this in two ways:
1 - "No, I have never read the Bible, or at least I haven't read the parts you're referring to."
2 - "Yes, I have read the Bible and have a rationalization for the things you mentioned."

I'd guess, but you'd say it was neither. Until you proved either one correct. So, I'm just going to skip to the part where you prove either one correct.

YHWH loves everyone:
Quote from: John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

People YHWH hates:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/bible/God-hates.html

YHWH says not to kill:
Quote from: Exodus 20:13
You shall not murder.

YHWH says to kill:
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

I'll leave the last two things in my other post a mystery until you reply to the above. Judging from previous experience, this might not work, but I'm willing to try. Know that, if you ignore the above and focus on the fact that I've left the other two points a mystery, I will smite you. Several times.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: If He Exists, Can Biblegod Be Destroyed?
« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2014, 03:04:18 PM »
.....

I second jdawg's comment about the statement being vacuous etc. it's just a tautology that doesn't tell us anything. Yes, the OP asked if the god of the Bible could be destroyed and your answer was no because it cannot not exist, but from there we've heard zip as to any reasoning or evidence as to how or why this is so. If you expect it to be seen as a valid answer, perhaps you could expand....
That would require me to convince you that the Christian God does exist, which is a slightly bigger task than answering this thread's OP!

I thought that showing the existence of god is necessary would be the sure fire way of being convincing, but as it happens it appears you see the argument from necessity to not be sufficient by itself, which kinda counters what it says on the tin.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire