Author Topic: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists  (Read 613 times)

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Offline lotanddaughters

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Good arguments:

Why won't God heal amputees?
Why do Christians act like non-believers when push comes to shove?
Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
Why is every explanation for Bible passages best reasoned with "Hey! Primitive, ruthless men wrote that shit!"?


The "primitive, ruthless men" part is a very solid argument.





When an atheist says, "Even if YHWH was real, I would try to take up arms against Him", I never think, "Damn, that was a great argument." Why? Because when you are dealing with Christians, you are usually dealing with people who are sick of their conclusions being constantly disassembled by atheists. Now, here you are, lying through your fucking teeth! The Christian knows, just like they know(deep down) that an eternal afterlife is far from guaranteed, that this is possibly the only time that they can honestly dismiss your stupid fucking joke of an attempt at an argument.

Even though they are so confused, Christians know one thing:

If YHWH was real, all He would have to do is torture you for 30 seconds. After that, you would be like, "YHWH, I want to suck your masculine KOCK!"[1]

When you go off on a tangent like, "My morals are so superior, I would go against YHWH," you give the desperate Christian a valid reason to believe that you are being dishonest with yourself. Believe me. Christians don't need much. They already have accepted the most ridiculous bullshit-- hook, line, and sinker.

The only good part about this "non +1'd" argument is that atheists agree that the morality that is taught in the Bible is inferior to Modern Western Morality. To say, "I would fight YHWH," is not a good way to hammer the point. The point was better before you became a fucking liar, leveling the playing field with your Christian acquaintance.

 1. The "c" word gave me the "Forbidden..." message.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:52:13 PM by lotanddaughters »
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 04:57:48 PM »
Sorry, but in this case, you have the wrong of it.  Your argument basically is that atheists who say they would try to resist YHWH wouldn't be able to hold up against his power for any amount of time - thus reinforcing the idea that the idea of YHWH is more powerful than the idea of atheism.  Yet Christians can and have undergone torture for their beliefs; their beliefs gave them the strength to resist.  So you shouldn't discount the idea that an atheist with strong enough beliefs could stand up, even to a god, and refuse to let themselves be made to worship.

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 05:21:16 PM »
If I fail to withstand the torture of a dictator, does that make me a liar?

I'm sorry, but I'm not lying if I say I would resist or go against a dictator god.  Does that mean I would be able to withstand the concequences?  Maybe not but I would make the same moral decision every time.  Even if this god did everything to make me submissive, this god would have to brainwash me to keep me from thinking about how to rebel. 

I suppose in theory then this dictator god could basically wipe out my desire to rebel, but does that make me a liar? No, I would be a different person, programed to worship the dictator god.  Of course, if this were to happen, why wait, just do it now.

I would not submit to a dictator god for as long as I can, that is the truth.  If that makes me a liar, so be it.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 05:42:22 PM »
Sorry, but in this case, you have the wrong of it.  Your argument basically is that atheists who say they would try to resist YHWH wouldn't be able to hold up against his power for any amount of time - thus reinforcing the idea that the idea of YHWH is more powerful than the idea of atheism.  Yet Christians can and have undergone torture for their beliefs; their beliefs gave them the strength to resist.  So you shouldn't discount the idea that an atheist with strong enough beliefs could stand up, even to a god, and refuse to let themselves be made to worship.

For me, It's kinda like this:

Somewhere, once upon a time, an atheist eloquently explained that he/she would never bow down to YHWH. Maybe he/she explained that he/she would be riding an iron chariot, or some even more ingenious loophole that can philosophically penetrate the bullshit of an ancient offshoot of Canaanite mythology. If I read some awe-inspiring shit like that from a KCrady or what not, I would be impressed.

Seriously, and I mean fucking seriously, I cannot remember being impressed by any "I would wage war against YHWH" argument.

If you are an atheist, and you are repeating this diluted fucking mantra that now consists of only standing up to YHWH with your "moral high-ground" alone, and you think that the atheist audience will cry, "Awesome post!", then you are a fucking idiot.

And furthermore, if Jaimehlers thinks you're cool, I will proceed to embarrass this bitch-ass motherfucker.


All I am thinking-out-loud about is:

On average, do the "I would wage war against YHWH" posts provoke serious thought in you, or are you, on average, unimpressed like me.



It's like people are semi-plagiarizing, but leaving out the precious, eye-opening concept that "won the day".

I see a lot of this with Christians' interpretations of fallacies. The major one that comes to mind is, back in the day, when VenomFangX made a response video to "10 Questions That Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer" by GIIVideo. In his video, he asks, "Do you know what a strawman argument is?" The thing is, the ingenious video that GIIVideo presented was trying to provoke thought into the listener. This was a one-way conversation. To cry "Strawman!" is to suck it.
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Offline wright

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 06:19:52 PM »
All I am thinking-out-loud about is:

On average, do the "I would wage war against YHWH" posts provoke serious thought in you, or are you, on average, unimpressed like me.

"I would wage war against YHWH" does sound a bit childish. It might move me to ask someone who claims that to expand on it.

On the other hand, jaime and SevenPatch saying they would resist YHWH tells me some (positive) things about their ethics and integrity.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2014, 06:21:48 PM »
Sorry, but in this case, you have the wrong of it.
Well . . . let's see . . .




Your argument basically is that atheists who say they would try to resist YHWH wouldn't be able to hold up against his power for any amount of time - thus reinforcing the idea that the idea of YHWH is more powerful than the idea of atheism.
Actually, I kind of like yours. The thing is, you have put a little pizazz of intellect and argumentation behind it. If the average-- fuck the average . . . twenty percent-- claim of "I would wage war against YHWH" was thought-provoking to me, I would never have created this topic. Something made me create it.

And, I still stand by it.


Convince me.





Yet Christians can and have undergone torture for their beliefs; their beliefs gave them the strength to resist.  So you shouldn't discount the idea that an atheist with strong enough beliefs could stand up, even to a god, and refuse to let themselves be made to worship.

Somebody! Please make a coherent commentary of this shit! If done well, I will no-doubtedly +1 this shit(and also yours)!




Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 06:35:14 PM »
All I am thinking-out-loud about is:

On average, do the "I would wage war against YHWH" posts provoke serious thought in you, or are you, on average, unimpressed like me.

"I would wage war against YHWH" does sound a bit childish. It might move me to ask someone who claims that to expand on it.

Thank you.






On the other hand, jaime and SevenPatch saying they would resist YHWH tells me some (positive) things about their ethics and integrity.

No shit, Sherlock.

But, would their fucking assumed, every-fucking-day of every-fucking-normal-person ethics make for some eye-opening post?



The posts are fucking stupid, unless you offer a little more than "I am more moral than YHWH! I am also brave enough to face YHWH! HA HA HA HA HA! This is gonna be the most eye-opening, thought provoking post!"


Like I said, there's a fucking reason that I got sick of plagiarism that didn't plagiarize the most important part!
Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 06:45:43 PM »
I have lived in dictatorships, and I followed the dictator's rules. I saluted the flag, watched what I said, did not violate the dress code. Out of fear.

I would obey a god out of fear, just like I would obey any dictator out of fear.  If some psycho threatened my husband or daughter, I would do what they told me to do, out of fear. I am not going to brag about how much tougher I am than the next person. I know better.

Now having said that, I would do everything I could to destroy and defeat that dictator, god or psycho once I was safely out of torture range. Viva la resistencia!

So, obedience from fear does not in any way equal acceptance, let alone love, respect, or worship! That is where an atheist parts company from the religious who think that love, respect, or worship under the threat of eternal torture is somehow reasonable and okay.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 06:59:45 PM »
If I fail to withstand the torture of a dictator, does that make me a liar?

What do you mean by "fail to withstand"? Are you that desperate to be fucking ridiculed for your stupidity? If I take up a whip and start cracking your ass like you deserve, how valuable is your supposed withstanding?

This is the Goddamn WhyWon'tGodHealAmputees forum. Are you Goddamn nuts for bringing such weak shit to the table?





I'm sorry, but I'm not lying if I say I would resist or go against a dictator god.  Does that mean I would be able to withstand the concequences?  Maybe not but I would make the same moral decision every time.  Even if this god did everything to make me submissive, this god would have to brainwash me to keep me from thinking about how to rebel.

No shit . . . . . Sherlock. Your weaseling doesn't make an uninteresting poster's post any more interesting. There's a reason that I started this thread. Am I insane for starting it?





I suppose in theory then this dictator god could basically wipe out my desire to rebel, but does that make me a liar? No, I would be a different person, programed to worship the dictator god.  Of course, if this were to happen, why wait, just do it now.

I would not submit to a dictator god for as long as I can, that is the truth.  If that makes me a liar, so be it.

As long as you can? You've got about three seconds to feel the heat. After that, bring at least the "iron chariot" argument if you want any chance of me +1ing your post.




Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 07:07:24 PM »
I have lived in dictatorships, and I followed the dictator's rules. I saluted the flag, watched what I said, did not violate the dress code. Out of fear.

I would obey a god out of fear, just like I would obey any dictator out of fear.  If some psycho threatened my husband or daughter, I would do what they told me to do, out of fear. I am not going to brag about how much tougher I am than the next person. I know better.

Now having said that, I would do everything I could to destroy and defeat that dictator, god or psycho once I was safely out of torture range. Viva la resistencia!

So, obedience from fear does not in any way equal acceptance, let alone love, respect, or worship! That is where an atheist parts company from the religious who think that love, respect, or worship under the threat of eternal torture is somehow reasonable and okay.

Do you see the turn-off that I see by the "I am more moral than YHWH. Therefore, I will gather up arms against YHWH." argument that includes no further craftiness to accompany it?

Or is my "booing" unfounded?

Be honest.

I can take it.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 08:07:48 PM »
Lot,
   The bible has very many good, wise lessons for life, IMO.  So do many religions. So do many secular philosophies.   That doesn't mean a god exists.  I have absolutely no way to know if a god exists.  The older I get, the more sure I am that no god exists - but how would I know, as one average human being with average intelligence living an average life.  My morals aren't superior to anyone's - I think we are all pretty much equal.  I become most angry with people who are convinced THEY KNOW.  It is what ruins our world.  But I really do not believe there is a god to show up, but hey, I could be a fucking idiot.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 08:21:23 PM »
I mean,

Of course one could argue:

YHWH is a misogynist. Right?

YHWH is an insecure dumbfuck. Right?

YHWH is a stupid failure of a motherfucker. Right?



Sure . . . with that conception of YHWH, we can conclude various traits of inadequacy. But . . . how stupid is the "I am more moral than YHWH. Therefore, I will relentlessly fight against Him." argument, when failing to provide any eye-opening angle?



I could post "Jesus is a faggot." Depending on the context of the thread, my post will probably not be an eye-opener. It may perhaps even be meaningless.

A curious reader might ask, "Can you elaborate?"



Sure, I could then say:


God made us in His own image. Some of us are faggots. Jesus is God. Jesus is part faggot.

And he also deepthroats kock![1]
 1. Watch out for the "c" word. You just might get the "Forbidden..." message.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 08:25:21 PM »
Lot,
   The bible has very many good, wise lessons for life, IMO.  So do many religions. So do many secular philosophies.   That doesn't mean a god exists.  I have absolutely no way to know if a god exists.  The older I get, the more sure I am that no god exists - but how would I know, as one average human being with average intelligence living an average life.  My morals aren't superior to anyone's - I think we are all pretty much equal.  I become most angry with people who are convinced THEY KNOW.  It is what ruins our world.  But I really do not believe there is a god to show up, but hey, I could be a fucking idiot.

Thank you, Shnozzola, for chiming in.

But, one good tell between atheists and theists is, when push comes to shove, both parties overwhelmingly act as if there is no God.

Period.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline eh!

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 08:38:31 PM »
If I fail to withstand the torture of a dictator, does that make me a liar?

What do you mean by "fail to withstand"? Are you that desperate to be fucking ridiculed for your stupidity? If I take up a whip and start cracking your ass like you deserve, how valuable is your supposed withstanding?



lot this is totally naive, you are a biological organism that with enough stress provided eg torture you will admit to any crime or be made to do absolutely anything at all that yr torturer told you to.

that is why torture is useless in general to get reliable information because people will say whatever they think they have to say to make it stop.

you and i are no different...it's just biology.

you argued from ignorance, and over stated yr case i believe...could be wrong, new to this.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 08:40:21 PM by eh! »
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2014, 08:56:06 PM »
If I fail to withstand the torture of a dictator, does that make me a liar?

What do you mean by "fail to withstand"? Are you that desperate to be fucking ridiculed for your stupidity? If I take up a whip and start cracking your ass like you deserve, how valuable is your supposed withstanding?



lot this is totally naive, you are a biological organism that with enough stress provided eg torture you will admit to any crime or be made to do absolutely anything at all that yr torturer told you to.

that is why torture is useless in general to get reliable information because people will say whatever they think they have to say to make it stop.

you and i are no different...it's just biology.

you argued from ignorance, and over stated yr case i believe...could be wrong, new to this.

I was compelled to start this thread by reading a post that was not only unoriginal, but also predictably non-compelling. Quit while you're behind, lest I make a mockery of you.




Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2014, 08:59:39 PM »
C'mon, Jaimehlers.




Yeah . . . I thought so.

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2014, 11:02:38 PM »
Has this argument held up for any other gods that existed over the millenia that man has had gods? All other gods that came before Yahweh have not held up to those who challenge them,why should Yahweh?  Yahweh makes some people a lot of money,that is all he is good for. He has yet to live up to any expectations,and through the writings about him has been nothing but a childish,murderous dictator.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2014, 12:29:48 PM »
As I have already stated in other posts dealing with Satan and his angel followers waging war with God, anyone would have to be a special brand of stupid to think they could win against, let alone throw down with an omnipotent creator.

That being said, should I ever be confronted with undeniable proof of the Judeo-Christian God's existence, I would still refuse to worship him even under the threat of everlasting pain and punishment.

Why? Because I'm a realist.

Since I cannot wipe my mind clean of every horrible and sadistic act he has committed, I would not be able to... no matter how hard I tried... bring myself to respect such a being.

In addition, there would be no point with attempting to fake being converted, since God... being omniscient... would clearly see through my charade.

So, I'm basically screwed either way. There is nothing I can do to change my fate, so why shouldn't I continue to reject "Bible God" and what he stands for up until the very end? For what little it's worth, at least I'll die with some shred of dignity before roasting in Hell for all eternity.

On another matter, I do not know what your particular view of homosexuals may be, but as a lesbian I would ask you to consider using another word than "faggot" to get your point across. It's bad enough I have to hear those inbred Westboro Baptist bastards constantly using it without seeing it show up here. Thanks.

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2014, 12:38:35 PM »
lotanddaughters, I must've missed the part where it said you could either:
A - Read/Calculate the future
B - Read people's minds

Because how do you know atheists would crumble after "30 seconds" of torture? Personally, I'd make a deal with YHWH to burn in Hell for all eternity before bowing down. I don't bow down to anything less than perfection. The only reason I'd make the deal was so that, even if I changed my mind (which I admit is not only likely/probable, but most likely inevitable), I couldn't go "suck [its] masculine KOCK!". My morality counts for something.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2014, 02:47:10 PM »
C'mon, Jaimehlers.

Yeah . . . I thought so.
A little patience goes a long way.  This was barely two hours after you posted, and I do have other things I do besides WWGHA.  It would have worked a lot better to shoot me a PM letting me know you were waiting for a response.

That being said, I'm here now, and I'll be responding to your original response in this thread.  Also, I intend to +karma you for that post, so if I forget, please remind me (by PM).

Your argument basically is that atheists who say they would try to resist YHWH wouldn't be able to hold up against his power for any amount of time - thus reinforcing the idea that the idea of YHWH is more powerful than the idea of atheism.
Actually, I kind of like yours. The thing is, you have put a little pizazz of intellect and argumentation behind it. If the average-- fuck the average . . . twenty percent-- claim of "I would wage war against YHWH" was thought-provoking to me, I would never have created this topic. Something made me create it.

And, I still stand by it.

Convince me.
Actually, I partially agree with you.  A lot of claims, that so-and-so would stand up against YHWH, are largely bravado.  They're intended to sound impressive to other atheists and to put down theists.  But, atheism isn't a belief.  It's not something you can stand up for.  And if deities were actually real, it wouldn't even be true.  How could someone stand up for what they know is a lie?

But the fact of the matter is that unless people are willing to stand up against the wrongs of the world, there's not even a chance of those wrongs being corrected.  That is what fuels my attitude on this matter.  That means I don't have to have the strength to defeat a deity.  I just have to have the strength to keep standing up - and if necessary, standing back up after being knocked down - against what I believe is wrong (and for what I believe is right).  And YHWH, as depicted in the Old Testament, is absolutely in the wrong.  I would be far less of a person if I was willing to turn a blind eye to that sort of thing in order to preserve my own personal safety.

Yet Christians can and have undergone torture for their beliefs; their beliefs gave them the strength to resist.  So you shouldn't discount the idea that an atheist with strong enough beliefs could stand up, even to a god, and refuse to let themselves be made to worship.
Somebody! Please make a coherent commentary of this shit! If done well, I will no-doubtedly +1 this shit(and also yours)!
I'm not sure if this is what you're asking for, there's a wiki list of Christian martyrsWiki.  Many of them are apocryphal or legendary; but some at least are real.

Not only that, but it almost doesn't matter if they are real, so long as Christians believe in it.  That's the whole point of an example, something to live up to.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2014, 04:02:59 PM »
C'mon, Jaimehlers.

Yeah . . . I thought so.
A little patience goes a long way.  This was barely two hours after you posted, and I do have other things I do besides WWGHA.  It would have worked a lot better to shoot me a PM letting me know you were waiting for a response.

That being said, I'm here now, and I'll be responding to your original response in this thread.  Also, I intend to +karma you for that post, so if I forget, please remind me (by PM).

Your argument basically is that atheists who say they would try to resist YHWH wouldn't be able to hold up against his power for any amount of time - thus reinforcing the idea that the idea of YHWH is more powerful than the idea of atheism.
Actually, I kind of like yours. The thing is, you have put a little pizazz of intellect and argumentation behind it. If the average-- fuck the average . . . twenty percent-- claim of "I would wage war against YHWH" was thought-provoking to me, I would never have created this topic. Something made me create it.

And, I still stand by it.

Convince me.
Actually, I partially agree with you.  A lot of claims, that so-and-so would stand up against YHWH, are largely bravado.  They're intended to sound impressive to other atheists and to put down theists.  But, atheism isn't a belief.  It's not something you can stand up for.  And if deities were actually real, it wouldn't even be true.  How could someone stand up for what they know is a lie?

But the fact of the matter is that unless people are willing to stand up against the wrongs of the world, there's not even a chance of those wrongs being corrected.  That is what fuels my attitude on this matter.  That means I don't have to have the strength to defeat a deity.  I just have to have the strength to keep standing up - and if necessary, standing back up after being knocked down - against what I believe is wrong (and for what I believe is right).  And YHWH, as depicted in the Old Testament, is absolutely in the wrong.  I would be far less of a person if I was willing to turn a blind eye to that sort of thing in order to preserve my own personal safety.

Yet Christians can and have undergone torture for their beliefs; their beliefs gave them the strength to resist.  So you shouldn't discount the idea that an atheist with strong enough beliefs could stand up, even to a god, and refuse to let themselves be made to worship.
Somebody! Please make a coherent commentary of this shit! If done well, I will no-doubtedly +1 this shit(and also yours)!
I'm not sure if this is what you're asking for, there's a wiki list of Christian martyrsWiki.  Many of them are apocryphal or legendary; but some at least are real.

Not only that, but it almost doesn't matter if they are real, so long as Christians believe in it.  That's the whole point of an example, something to live up to.

You make some good points. I guess I'm trying to imagine the most possible, extreme torture for eternity, but since it's a make-believe god with lots of holes in the story, atheists can come at the hypothetical problem from so many different angles.

I can't believe I didn't understand your post I was referring to. You made sense-- as clear as day. I've gotta stop coming here posting when I'm all drunk and shit. I guess my sorry ass is just another good argument for us not living in the domain of any god who cares. We are all just a bunch of apes typing what's on our mind at the time.

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2014, 04:08:39 PM »
I can't believe I didn't understand your post I was referring to. You made sense-- as clear as day. I've gotta stop coming here posting when I'm all drunk and shit. I guess my sorry ass is just another good argument for us not living in the domain of any god who cares. We are all just a bunch of apes typing what's on our mind at the time.

"At the end of the day, I'm of the opinion that I do myself a great disservice if I go around pretending that every shaved ape with a theory is worth respecting right off rip, simply because they have a computer and the will to start typing." -RaymondKHessel(Brian)

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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2014, 11:01:03 AM »
As I have already stated in other posts dealing with Satan and his angel followers waging war with God, anyone would have to be a special brand of stupid to think they could win against, let alone throw down with an omnipotent creator.

This is just one of the many contradictions in the conventional Christian narrative:

1) Resistance against Yahweh is not just futile, it is ridiculous.
2) There is resistance against Yahweh, waged by beings who have direct knowledge of his power (the Devil, his demons, the angelic defectors of Genesis 6).


Remember, in the context of the Christian narrative, these rebel angels have far superior knowledge of Yahweh, his power, nature, etc. to that of any humans--direct experience of living under his rule in Heaven.  All believers have is the ability to read about Yahweh in a book, and maybe get a warm, fuzzy "feeling in their hearts."  We can also add a third premise:

3) This resistance has been successful for several thousand years at least.

Add to this the "fact" that only one third of the angels joined "Satan's" rebellion, i.e., Yahweh's angelic armies outnumber "Satan's" two to one.  Yahweh's side still hasn't won the "spiritual warfare" that's been going on for 2,000 years after Jesus supposedly triumphed on the Cross?  Yahweh is clearly no Sun Tzu.  The Bible actually contains abundant evidence that Yahweh, if he existed, would be far from omnipotent and invincible.

First of all, if you look at the passages that believers use to justify claims of Yahweh's supposed omnimax powers, you'll notice that they're always paeans of flowery, hyperbolic praise rather than straightforward philosophical/theological/scientific descriptions of Yahweh's nature.  They're in the genre of the flattery a courtier offers when he's pressing his forehead to the floor before the throne of an Iron Age god-king.  The passages that are putatively in Yahweh's own words are classic Mighty Oz braggadocio; again, not expressed in the form of philosophical/theological/scientific argumentation.  Taken together, they're what we'd now refer to as advertizing copy.  "Our God is so super big and powerful he can totally beat up your gods!"

Yet, when we look at the narrative passages that show Yahweh in action, we see a completely different picture.  Since all of the books in the Bible were written by self-proclaimed servants and spokesmen for Yahweh, we can operate on the premise that the narrative passages will not be biased against Yahweh and portray him as any weaker than he "really is."  So let's begin:

The Tree of Life:

In Genesis 3, Yahweh drives Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden with a magic flaming sword in order to prevent them from partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Life.  If they had done so, they would have completed the ascent to divinity that they'd begun with the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.  Yahweh's actions show that he would not have been able to reverse the effect, any more than he was able to reverse the effect of the Tree of Knowledge.  He almost suffered total defeat right from the start!

The Tower of Babel:

The Tower of Babel story in Genesis 11 makes it clear that Yahweh fears human science and technology.  While he demonstrates considerable power in his ability to confound human language, it also shows a major lack of foresight: his "Plan" for salvation is, after all, centered on the idea of humans spreading his "Word" around.  The panoply of different human languages has proven to be such a roadblock that only a handful of scholars can actually read his "Word" in the languages it was originally written in.

Beaten by a Moabite God:

Quote
Elisha said to the king of Israel, “What have I to do with you? Go to your father’s prophets or to your mother’s.” But the king of Israel said to him, “No; it is the Lord who has summoned us, three kings, only to be handed over to Moab.” Elisha said, “As the Lord of hosts lives, whom I serve, were it not that I have regard for King Jehoshaphat of Judah, I would give you neither a look nor a glance. But get me a musician.” And then, while the musician was playing, the power of the Lord came on him. And he said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘I will make this wadi full of pools.’ For thus says the Lord, ‘You shall see neither wind nor rain, but the wadi shall be filled with water, so that you shall drink, you, your cattle, and your animals.’ This is only a trifle in the sight of the Lord, for he will also hand Moab over to you. You shall conquer every fortified city and every choice city; every good tree you shall fell, all springs of water you shall stop up, and every good piece of land you shall ruin with stones.” The next day, about the time of the morning offering, suddenly water began to flow from the direction of Edom, until the country was filled with water.

When all the Moabites heard that the kings had come up to fight against them, all who were able to put on armor, from the youngest to the oldest, were called out and were drawn up at the frontier. When they rose early in the morning, and the sun shone upon the water, the Moabites saw the water opposite them as red as blood. They said, “This is blood; the kings must have fought together, and killed one another. Now then, Moab, to the spoil!” But when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and attacked the Moabites, who fled before them; as they entered Moab they continued the attack. The cities they overturned, and on every good piece of land everyone threw a stone, until it was covered; every spring of water they stopped up, and every good tree they felled. Only at Kir-hareseth did the stone walls remain, until the slingers surrounded and attacked it. When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. Then he took his firstborn son who was to succeed him, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land.

--2 Kings 3:13-27 (bold emphasis added)

Here we see that Yahweh lent his aid to the kings attacking Moab, promising them complete triumph.  And for awhile he was able to deliver, but when the Moabite king sacrificed his firstborn son to his god, that god's "great wrath" came upon the Israelite alliance, and they were driven off in defeat.  "Yeah, but Yahweh still kicked butt until that last battle!"  Sure, the same way Assyria mastodon-stomped the cities of Judah until only Jerusalem was left, before Yahweh finally rescued King Hezekiah.  If you're going to count that as a win for Yahweh, consistency requires that you do the same for the Moabite god in the above passage.

Defeat by the "Prince of Tyre" and the Gods and Goddesses of Egypt:

In Ezekiel 28, Yahweh proclaims through the prophet that he will destroy Tyre through the agency of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.  But in the 29th chapter, Yahweh admits failure and promises Egypt as a consolation prize:

Quote
Mortal, King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had expended against it.  Therefore thus says the Lord God: I will give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army.  I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, says the Lord God.

--Ezekiel 29:18-20

The preceding verses in that chapter promise that Yahweh would dry up the Nile and its channels, render it uninhabited even by animals for 40 years, etc., and that Egypt would never again "exalt itself over the nations" (i.e., be an imperial power).  Apparently nobody mentioned that to the Ptolemies.  Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt either, so I guess he went home without his salary.

Pitched Battle Against the "Prince of Persia:"

In the 10th chapter of Daniel, we are told that the spiritual "Prince of Persia" was able to successfully interdict Yahweh's message traffic for 24 days, before Yahweh finally sent reinforcements (the Archangel Michael, "Prince of Israel") to fight him so that the angelic messenger could get through, and even then the battle still raged.  In a military context, this sort of thing would not be possible unless the "Prince of Persia" was a peer competitor to Yahweh and his angelic forces.  Otherwise the "Prince of Persia" would not be able to prevail in a pitched battle for nearly a month; he would have to resort to guerrilla tactics instead.

Principalities and Powers in Heavenly Places:

Quote
For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

--Ephesians 6:12
 

Quote
Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, and to make everyone see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

--Ephesians 3:8-10

In these two passages, we see that centuries after the "spiritual warfare" portrayed in the Book of Daniel, battles--and efforts to persuade other spiritual forces of Yahweh's legitimacy--continue. 

Revelation of Failure:

Quote
Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, “King of kings and Lord of lords.”

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.” Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army.

--Revelation 19:11-19

Here it is prophesied that Jesus will return with a massed cavalry force to engage the massed cavalry of the "kings of the Earth."  Modern vehicles and firepower have rendered these tactics obsolete, and there is a distinct shortage of "kings of the Earth" these days.  So, either this prophecy is a failure and Yahweh has lost the Battle of Armageddon by failing to arrange for it to take place, or he will have to wait and hope for civilization to collapse to horses-and-swords again.  Taking into account that Jesus claimed that he would return in the lifetime of his contemporaries (e.g. the high priest Caiaphas, "some now standing here" "this generation shall not pass"), the former is the more probable interpretation.

So: if we were to discover that Yahweh actually existed, we would have good reason to think it possible not only to fight him, but to win.  Yahweh's best threat is his putative ability to get his hands on our "souls" when we die and torture them.  However, since we have Biblical warrant for the existence of rival spiritual forces (i.e. other deities) who are able to go toe-to-toe with Yahweh and hold their own or win, we would have the option of choosing a patron deity or pantheon with an afterlife we prefer to Yahweh's and joining their religion.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2014, 11:34:01 AM »
My first thought, while reading this thread, is that the claim that some of us would resist a biblical god is not an argument at all. It is simply a statement of intent, and hoped-for integrity. We see courage everyday in the face of stronger opposing forces, and speaking for myself, I hope that I would have the strength to resist what I consider an oppressive god, regardless of the consequences. Anyone who would do so would be a hero to my eyes.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2014, 11:35:35 AM »
I cannot thank you enough for this, kcrady. Up until now, I had always argued from the viewpoint that the (non-existent) God of the Bible, while omnipotent, was at the very least a highly incompetent deity whose best laid plans (his "most perfect creation" Satan, Adam & Eve, all of humanity circa Noah's Flood, etc) always seemed to end up in disaster and disappointment.

The next time I deal with a theist who believes Yahweh to be all-powerful, I will direct them to your post.

If I may suggest one more example to add to the list: the "fact" that it took ten plagues before Pharaoh finally released the Israelites. Not exactly a sterling example of "shock and awe".
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2014, 03:31:03 PM »
Man . . . talk about gettin' your ass beat in your own topic. I was already down, then KCrady pops in to add insult to injury.

That's one hell of a post, though. :)


Lol@ KCrady...

I always say that a lot of theists that come here end up like a handicapped puppy getting stampeded by buffalos...

But to see KC pop up in this particular thread... It's like a Panzer tank vs. a hampster. Talk about overkill lol. I love it though. KC's stuff is always on point.  :)



Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2014, 07:31:03 PM »
My first thought, while reading this thread, is that the claim that some of us would resist a biblical god is not an argument at all. It is simply a statement of intent, and hoped-for integrity.

In addition, it points to one of the major flaws in conventional Christian argumentation--namely, the premise that if they can just talk us into believing their god exists, or even pretending to do so (Pascal's Wager), that worship, love, and obedience to said god will be automatically forthcoming.  This tactic is the attempt to assert the presence of "free will" where it does not exist (we have no choice on the issue of their god's existence--he's real, or he's not), and remove it where it does (the decision of whether to agree that the Christian god is morally good and worthy of worship, or not).  Reality is optional; agreeing with Christianity isn't (or so they'd like us to believe).  Nobody, even (especially?) a Christian would agree that, if someone can prove to them that Hillary Clinton exists, that they will vote for her as a matter of course, and that the only way not to vote for Hillary is to deny that she exists.

I cannot thank you enough for this, kcrady.

You're quite welcome. :D

If I may suggest one more example to add to the list: the "fact" that it took ten plagues before Pharaoh finally released the Israelites. Not exactly a sterling example of "shock and awe".

It's a bit of a nitpick, but the text does claim that Yahweh prevented the Pharaoh from releasing the Israelites by "hardening his heart" so that he (Yahweh) could show off his capacity for wrath.  Yahweh turning the Pharaoh into a marionette so he can get mad and kick the marionette around isn't very inspiring though.  Then there's the fact that, even if Yahweh landed on the White House lawn tomorrow, there still would be no reason to believe that the events in Exodus actually happened.  If they had, they would have left evidence in the archaeological record: the sudden death of every firstborn child in the nation, the sudden loss of Egypt's chariot corps under the leadership of a Pharaoh who was not a firstborn son, the sudden collapse of the nation's economy, the fear of Hebrew wizards that would inevitably result if the country was laid waste by Moses' magic, etc..

So what we have is Yahweh having his Pravda writers make up a story about him being the type of bully who likes to pull the wings off flies and torture small animals.  Impressive! [/sarcasm]

Lotandaughters: lol!  RaymondKHessel was pretty epic in that thread too, haha.  C'mon Ray, tell 'em how you really feel!  :D
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2014, 11:12:32 PM »
The thing is, I'm working against the god right now. Even if it exists, I am not worshipping it at this very moment. And there are many people standing with me.

Apparently the supposed god only tortures the "souls" of people after they die, and that doesn't matter because you won't be yourself after you die.

I say you won't be yourself because you're supposed to be blissful in heaven, yet how can you be blissful knowing that others are suffering eternal torment in hell? You can't. Only some grotesquely twisted version of yourself could possibly do that. Either that or heaven is filled with psychopaths.
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Re: The Stupid "I Would Wage War With YHWH" Argument From Atheists
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2014, 03:24:36 PM »
I say you won't be yourself because you're supposed to be blissful in heaven, yet how can you be blissful knowing that others are suffering eternal torment in hell? You can't. Only some grotesquely twisted version of yourself could possibly do that. Either that or heaven is filled with psychopaths.
Or else those people aren't quite 'real' to those in heaven.  The same way that people suffering here on Earth can be happy even though there are literally millions of people suffering around the world.  You don't have to be grotesquely twisted or a psychopath, you just have to be indifferent.

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Regarding kcrady, having him post in a topic is like getting fire support from a battleship.