Author Topic: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?  (Read 4060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2940
  • Darwins +327/-14
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 06:47:28 AM »
So this is a lab experiment?

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of predestination, so how did you know what Yahweh predicted or not predicted?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

No, Yahweh is just a literary character, who repeatedly fails to predict what will happen.

As you can see from my other postings, I confuse easily. 

If I am understanding things correctly, Yahweh is a literary character yet you expect this literary character to predict what will happen?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

I am not a Christian, so I don't believe a literary character can predict anything in reality. Yahweh is not so good as a literary figure either.

Let's look at what the bible says about Yahweh's ability to predict the future.

Genesis 3:22 behold the man has become like one of us (Yahweh was originally one of a group of gods) knowing good and evil, and now lest he put forth his hand and take from the tree of life, and eat and live forever, therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of Eden....he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So Yahweh had a panic attack because humans had done something he did not predict and he was worried in case they would do something else. I would call this a major lack of omniscience right from the start.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2101
  • Darwins +190/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2014, 07:23:19 AM »
So this is a lab experiment?

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of predestination, so how did you know what Yahweh predicted or not predicted?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

No, Yahweh is just a literary character, who repeatedly fails to predict what will happen.

As you can see from my other postings, I confuse easily. 

If I am understanding things correctly, Yahweh is a literary character yet you expect this literary character to predict what will happen?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

I am not a Christian, so I don't believe a literary character can predict anything in reality. Yahweh is not so good as a literary figure either.

Let's look at what the bible says about Yahweh's ability to predict the future.

Genesis 3:22 behold the man has become like one of us (Yahweh was originally one of a group of gods) knowing good and evil, and now lest he put forth his hand and take from the tree of life, and eat and live forever, therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of Eden....he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So Yahweh had a panic attack because humans had done something he did not predict and he was worried in case they would do something else. I would call this a major lack of omniscience right from the start.

If one takes the above verse literally, then I think you make a good point. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2940
  • Darwins +327/-14
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2014, 07:47:28 AM »
The writers of the NT all took the creation story literally. It was the foundation idea of christianity which gave meaning to the crucifixion.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2101
  • Darwins +190/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2014, 07:53:13 AM »
The writers of the NT all took the creation story literally. It was the foundation idea of christianity which gave meaning to the crucifixion.

I admit ignorance (again).  What verses from the NT support this assertion?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2940
  • Darwins +327/-14
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2014, 08:06:17 AM »
Examples include

The genealogy of Jesus back to Adam

The creation narrative in 2 Peter

Many of Paul's letters which state that one man originally sinned and one man corrected that sin.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4713
  • Darwins +474/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2014, 08:33:00 AM »
Paul seemed to believe Abraham existed, and based some of his logic on in.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15326
  • Darwins +1178/-40
  • Gender: Male
  • We stand on the shoulders of giants
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2014, 09:26:00 AM »
I admit ignorance (again).  What verses from the NT support this assertion?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

The (formerly) awesome former member DTE - the guy who coined the term "SPAG" - did a post in the old forum about how xians cannot claim metaphor with the OT because jesus H himself took the OT literally.  Keep in mind, DTE was a trained theologian.  Alas, the old forum is inaccessible.  However, you are in luck!  I have copied the post!

Quote from: DTE
This is why Christians cannot be allowed to disavow Noah, Jonah or other ridiculous stories and cling to their faith and belief in a risen, saving Christ: Jesus believed in them per the bible and the bible is the testimony of his resurrection. To paraphrase a silly bumpersticker: Know Noah, know Christ. No Noah, no Christ.


Lineage of Jesus
Quote
Luke 3:23b-24, 36-38 - He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph... the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.


An historical Noah is necessary to the Christ of the Scripture ever existing, as the Bible names Noah as an ancestor of Jesus (Thanks to Atheist Devil for that one).

 
Jesus' use of Noah:
Quote
Matthew 24: 36-39 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Quote
Luke 17:26-27 - "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The historical events of the ark are used to explain what will be the historical circumstance of the second coming. Notice the as it was... so it will be structure. What happened then shows what will happen then.

Noah as an example of saving faith and justification by faith
Quote
Hebrews 11:1, 6-7 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Noah is going to be in heaven among the Christians with the same saving faith. (Notice also, Hebrews 11 is a litany of faithful Old Testament saints (including Abraham) each of whose historicity is demanded by Noah.

While he was dead, Christ preached to the people drowned in Noah's flood
Quote
1 Peter 3:18-20 - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Notice first, that Peter is discussing Christ's saving work.

After Christ was put to death, he preached by the Holy Spirit to those disobedient souls that drowned in Noah's flood. If there are no such souls, there is no reason to believe Christ was ever put to death.

God's destruction of sinners and preservation of the righteous demonstrated by Noah
Quote
2 Peter 2: 4-5, 9 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ... if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


God's real ability to rescue the godly and judge the wicked is evidenced in his historic, respective rescuing and judging of them. One such historical act of God which is adduced as a ground of God's faithfulness is Noah.

The flood is evidence of Christ's imminent return
Quote
2 Peter 3:3-7 - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Scoffers, mocking Christ's "failure" to come (when in reality, he tarries in grace-- read veres 8ff, if you're interested) are deliberately ignorant of the 'fact' of the flood, that is evidence of the same word bringing another imminent judgement upon the world.

Without the historicity of Noah, there is no Christianity. Christians who pretend otherwise are dishonest, whether to themselves or to others.


What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Graybeard

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 8438
  • Darwins +884/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Could Yahweh predict the result of his own creation?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2014, 11:47:07 AM »
It should never be forgotten that The Bible is a book of propaganda in which the main character, the tribal god, Yahweh, is woven into the Israelite version of history.

In fact, if you remove Yahweh from the Bible, what remains is the Israelite idea of the origins and history of their tribe mostly done from memory. There are other versions of the same history available, one incident is from the Moabites: the [wiki]Mesha Stele[/wiki] shows how their god Chemosh was instrumental in defeating Yahweh, as opposed the Israelite propaganda version in 2 Kings 3:4-8. It is well worth remembering that in a society run by priests, gods were always going to figure highly.

The few people who read the other versions of the area covered by the Bible usually read them as another version of history and discard the propaganda and magic of the gods other than as an interesting insight into the circumstances of ancient people.

However to the general population of Christian lands, the Bible seems separate from “History”, as it has been presented in isolation and as if it were the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when clearly, it isn’t: there is much more to the history that, if told, would instantly reduce to part played by Yahweh.

Prophecies were originally understood as merely “speaking as if inspired by a god.” And if the god happened to reference the future, this was a ‘future prophecy’, whereas, if a god referenced the present, this was simply, “a prophecy.”

Of course there were no gods but there were clever rulers and cleverer advisers who were skilled at manipulating public opinion.

If you want to write propaganda, it should not be quite as crude as “God will do this if you don’t do that”, but the peasants were pretty gullible and it need not be too sophisticated:

It is the future prophecies that cause the problems for Christians. They do two things:
(i)   In some cases, they torture the words until they confess to speaking of the Coming of Christ
(ii)   In some cases, they refuse to admit that the words were written after the event.

Consider: “In 1923, my grandfather said that there would be a man in Russia called Stalin who would appear to be an ally but would later cause trouble in Europe.”

First you say something
(i)   you know everyone knows is true;
(ii)   you warn of a danger that people fear;
(iii)   you call upon your tribal god;
(iv)   You insert the propaganda;
(v)   you present loyalty your tribal god as the solution and finally put the cherry on the top by saying
(vi)   what will happen if this loyalty is not forthcoming.

So when I come to write my grandfather’s biography, I write:

“(i) In 1923, 5 years after the end of WW1, my grandfather, a great politician [prophet], said, (ii) “Mark my words! The communists of Russia are a great threat. (iii) More than that, there will be a man in Russia called Stalin who will appear to be an ally but he is an enemy. Communism will cause trouble for you. (iv) My party is the only solution – vote for them or (v) you will be embroiled in a dynasty of troubles which will never end.”

Now, tell me that my grandfather was not able to prophecy the future and that is only possible through God.





Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”