death penalty

[screwtape]

This link has a map which shows cumulative executions by state since 1981.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/08/1290541/-Chart-s-of-the-Day-Executions

not coincidentally, the areas with the most executions also have enacted the most stringent abortion regulations, have the lowest school performance, the highest teen pregnancy rates and the worst poverty.  They are strongly republican and religious. 

[Nam]

The method of execution is more troubling than the actual execution, I feel. Tells me who the ones who probably take the most pleasure in it. Lethal injection is the most humane method, and since the botched electrocusion in Florida the preferred method for those on death row in Florida but Florida still employs it as an alternative. Only a truly sick fuck would want the alternative. But there are still states that have hanging, firing squad, gas, etc., as their primary method (though I think lethal injection is supposed to be on the table), and the fact that most prisons and correctional facilities (at least in the southern states) are owned and run by private companies: everything seems more about profit rather than any sense of rehabilitation.

 If the evidence for those put on death row was 100% 100% of the time, I'd be for it in concern only to the worst murderers, child rapists, and serial rapists out there but since it's not, and never will be and frankly it's a revenge method rather than a "justice" method, it should be wholly abolished.

-Nam

[screwtape]

For me the most troubling part is how often a jury gets the wrong verdict and convicts people who are not guilty.  For that reason alone, I do not believe we should have capital punishment. 

Paradoxically, I do think some crimes should be punished by executing the offender's entire family.  I think that would have a deterrent effect that mere execution does not.  I also think it should apply to the highest levels of white collar crime.  The Enron guys, for example.   

[Nam]

Paradoxically, I do think some crimes should be punished by executing the offender's entire family.  I think that would have a deterrent effect that mere execution does not.

You'd still have innocent people dying, and some people just don't care; their thought process would be, "At least it wasn't me." and take it as a necessary loss.

I also think it should apply to the highest levels of white collar crime.  The Enron guys, for example.   

I don't agree. I don't even feel traitors to one's own country should be executed.

-Nam

[screwtape]

You'd still have innocent people dying,

Thus the "paradoxically".

[Boots]

I'm on the fence re: capital punishment (with a slight bias towards "pro, under certain circumstances), but one thing I really dislike is the argument that "capital punishment is a deterent."

It is NOT.[1]

A deterent only works if you're rational enough to make some form of cost/benefit analysis, however crude.  I don't believe that someone who is in a mental state to torture and murder someone, for example, is able to make that cost/benefit analysis.  Your brain has to be pretty effed up to perform acts that the average joe would say "Yep, off 'im".

1.

IMNSHO

[Chronos]

I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent. I think very few people choose against committing a crime after contemplating the punishment. If they did we would likely have far less crime, especially murder.

I am a little surprised that Delaware had far more executions than Maryland. Delaware ain't a big place.

[One Above All]

Death penalty does not solve any problems. It gives the weak-minded and more animalistic and lacking in empathy among us (I'm looking at you, fundies) a sense of "justice", when it is nothing of the sort. It's revenge, plain and simple. And with very little (from their perspective) gain.
So now the person who did harm (say, killed your loved ones) is dead. Did that get your loved ones back? Definitely not. Did it somehow make them feel they were "avenged"? Also definitely not, even if we assume the existence of Heaven. Did it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like psychopaths/sociopaths do when they kill or otherwise harm other people? Yup. Well... fancy that.

[screwtape]

another thought on the death penalty:

Right now we do no have competent people administering it.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/death-penalty-lethal-injections-untrained-doctors

As Dr. Jay Chapman, the Oklahoma coroner who essentially created the modern lethal injection protocol, observed in the New York Times in 2007, "It never occurred to me when we set this up that we'd have complete idiots administering the drugs."

This plus our gun policies make us look like barbarians to the civilized world.

[Dante]

It's revenge, plain and simple.

But cost effective, and possibly more humane, compared to keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

[Nam]

It's revenge, plain and simple.

But cost effective, and possibly more humane, compared to keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts

-Nam

[One Above All]

But cost effective, and possibly more humane, compared to keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

I think Nam's link speaks for itself on the "cost" issue.
Crappy life or no life... I guess that depends on how crappy it is and who we're talking about.

[Dante]

But cost effective, and possibly more humane, compared to keeping someone imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

I think Nam's link speaks for itself on the "cost" issue.

Somewhat, it does. And it did surprise me, but look how much of those costs are defense related. Crazy.

Crappy life or no life... I guess that depends on how crappy it is and who we're talking about.

That's a given, I suppose, but another given is that if you look at death the way atheists do, oblivion, death beats the shit out of rotting in a cell, trying to survive prison, and living with whatever you did to get there on your conscience.

I'd off myself within a week.

[One Above All]

That's a given, I suppose, but another given is that if you look at death the way atheists do, oblivion, death beats the shit out of rotting in a cell, trying to survive prison, and living with whatever you did to get there on your conscience.

Never say things like "the way atheists do". You, I, whomever, do not and cannot speak for atheists on any subject other than the fact that we're non-believers. Anything else is speculation and stereotyping.
Anyway, if I found myself in prison, it wouldn't be for something I did, so I'd tough it out and wait until I was released, even if I died before I was proven innocent. However, if it were for something I did, it would mean I had gone "dark-side", if you will, so I wouldn't care about what my conscience said, and therefore would still choose life.

I'd off myself within a week.

Suicide is the most selfish action any human can undertake. Think about that, then get back to me. Or don't. Just think about it, regardless.

[Nam]

The mentally ill who commit suicide, in my opinion, are not selfish; I doubt most of them realize what they're doing in the first place.

As for the sane: I think it depends on the situation; and frankly, I feel, if a person wants to end their life--for whatever reason--that's their choice but I think "selfish" mainly relies on the loved ones of the person committing suicide rather than perhaps the one committing the act.

-Nam

[relativetruth]

This link has a map which shows cumulative executions by state since 1981.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/08/1290541/-Chart-s-of-the-Day-Executions

not coincidentally, the areas with the most executions also have enacted the most stringent abortion regulations, have the lowest school performance, the highest teen pregnancy rates and the worst poverty.  They are strongly republican and religious.

How do Christians relate their behaviour above to Luke 6.37 'Thou shall not judge!'?

These States decide to ignore the 'Thou shall not kill' commandment at the same time as judging another point of view regarding abortion. 

[Nam]

This link has a map which shows cumulative executions by state since 1981.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/08/1290541/-Chart-s-of-the-Day-Executions

not coincidentally, the areas with the most executions also have enacted the most stringent abortion regulations, have the lowest school performance, the highest teen pregnancy rates and the worst poverty.  They are strongly republican and religious.

How do Christians relate their behaviour above to Luke 6.37 'Thou shall not judge!'?

These States decide to ignore the 'Thou shall not kill' commandment at the same time as judging another point of view regarding abortion. 

Christian reply: That's in the Old Testament. Those laws don't pertain to Christians; mere suggestions and guidelines.





Did you say Luke...?



-Nam

[Dante]

That's a given, I suppose, but another given is that if you look at death the way atheists do, oblivion, death beats the shit out of rotting in a cell, trying to survive prison, and living with whatever you did to get there on your conscience.

Never say things like "the way atheists do". You, I, whomever, do not and cannot speak for atheists on any subject other than the fact that we're non-believers. Anything else is speculation and stereotyping.
Anyway, if I found myself in prison, it wouldn't be for something I did, so I'd tough it out and wait until I was released, even if I died before I was proven innocent. However, if it were for something I did, it would mean I had gone "dark-side", if you will, so I wouldn't care about what my conscience said, and therefore would still choose life.

You're, as usual, freaking hilarious!

I'd off myself within a week.

Suicide is the most selfish action any human can undertake. Think about that, then get back to me. Or don't. Just think about it, regardless.

I've thought about it plenty. And not once did I imply that it wasn't a selfish act. Now, how about you tell me what your point is?

[One Above All]

You're, as usual, freaking hilarious!

Mind explaining why? Or are you just gonna laugh and point and say "OMNEG, how stupid! Right, guys?"?

I've thought about it plenty. And not once did I imply that it wasn't a selfish act. Now, how about you tell me what your point is?

My point is moot, now that I see you're OK with (maybe a little proud of) being selfish.

[Dante]

You're, as usual, freaking hilarious!

Mind explaining why? Or are you just gonna laugh and point and say "OMNEG, how stupid! Right, guys?"?

I do, because I don't feel like wasting time in a pissing match with you over it.

I've thought about it plenty. And not once did I imply that it wasn't a selfish act. Now, how about you tell me what your point is?

My point is moot, now that I see you're OK with (maybe a little proud of) being selfish.

Ah, got it. So your moot point was going to be either

A. - I hadn't thought about it.

or

B. - Selfish = bad.

[One Above All]

I do, because I don't feel like wasting time in a pissing match with you over it.

This and

Ah, got it. So your moot point was going to be either

A. - I hadn't thought about it.

this make me think you were projecting with both points. Who's to say I wouldn't just be amused at what is likely utter (yet harmless) stupidity?

[Dante]

Ah, got it. So your moot point was going to be either

A. - I hadn't thought about it.

this make me think you were projecting with both points. Who's to say I wouldn't just be amused at what is likely utter (yet harmless) stupidity?

So then, what was your point again?

Suicide is the most selfish action any human can undertake. Think about that, then get back to me. Or don't. Just think about it, regardless.

Have you thought about it? What do you think about it?

[One Above All]

So then, what was your point again?

My point was B, more or less. There are at least two levels of selfishness:
1 - Selfishness the person performing the action is aware of.
2 - Selfishness the person performing the action is not aware of.

All actions can be boiled down to either one of these two categories.

Have you thought about it? What do you think about it?

See above.

[Dante]

So then, what was your point again?

My point was B, more or less. There are at least two levels of selfishness:
1 - Selfishness the person performing the action is aware of.
2 - Selfishness the person performing the action is not aware of.

And how does either one of those equate to selfish = bad?

[One Above All]

And how does either one of those equate to selfish = bad?

That's what is known as a personal opinion, since "good" and "bad" don't exist as objective things; merely as concepts that we then apply to the world around us.

[Dante]

And how does either one of those equate to selfish = bad?

That's what is known as a personal opinion, since "good" and "bad" don't exist as objective things; merely as concepts that we then apply to the world around us.

Then why did you say

My point was B, more or less.

?

[One Above All]

Then why did you say

My point was B, more or less.

?

...Because it's my opinion? An opinion that (I think) most people share, if I might add. Doesn't make it objective or "right"; just makes it "society's objective"[1]. If we only spoke of objective things, this forum would be called "1 + 1 = 2". Actually, might not even be called that. Might not even have a name, since symbols are subjective.

1.	I am quoting Graybeard here, if I'm not mistaken.

[Dante]

So if suicide is the ultimate selfish act, and selfish is bad[1], then you don't approve of terminally ill people choosing to end their life on their terms?

1.	in your opinion

[One Above All]

So if suicide is the ultimate selfish act, and selfish is bad[1], then you don't approve of terminally ill people choosing to end their life on their terms?

1.	in your opinion

No I do not. That doesn't mean I don't approve of their freedom to choose it, though. You don't have to approve of something to approve of people's right to choose it. For example, I don't approve of abortions, but I do think women should be free to have one, if they feel the need to.