Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 10850 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #725 on: May 28, 2014, 01:19:04 AM »
Your evidence is not acceptable to the most primitive standard . what else you got.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #726 on: May 28, 2014, 03:28:46 AM »
Anselm has been debunked. He lived at a time when people didn't know any science ans thought all sort of things were caused by god which, today, we can explain.

Eh! is looking for something better than old, tired, medieval philosophy to show the separate and real existence of god outwith the minds of believers. Nowhere have you shown this.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #727 on: May 28, 2014, 03:35:34 AM »
I don't think he has any other evidence .....or he would show it.
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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #728 on: May 28, 2014, 03:41:53 AM »
Maybe I wasn't clear
there seem to be a mistake here. Violate our free will to see him or not see him. Not violate our free will to do what he says or not.
It means that The angel who saw god still had the free will to chose him or not, we agree on that. If god wanted he could have made them stay and removed their free will. But he chose not to. I hope we agree on that too.
God is not visible by those who don't want to see him. He could force them so see him but he choose not to. (you agree?)
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL. You seem to think that my statement is something else. YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE/your free will (of not seeing him).
God can do anything, you can't. You are not more powerful than God.


This is just more preaching and making claims without evidence (i.e. - more "because I say so" fallacies). It is also an ad hominem attack because you are implying that we "do not want to see", when in fact you are wrong. You have started with your conclusion and you keep trying to work backwards (in this case Romans ch1). You merely ASSUME that - no matter what - you must be right and that it's impossible that you are mistaken (which is the height of arrogance). That is the problem. I could say, "Santa Claus is not visible to those who don't want to see him." It proves nothing but bullshit. Things that are demonstrable are easily seen by all (especially when people like myself asked for demonstrable evidence for years, praying, and still got nothing). For fucks sake, even your bible says that Paul (who allegedly persecuted Christians and did not want to believe) saw Jesus. The angels also saw the deity (again allegedly as they rebelled) and it did not violate their freewill. So your argument falls apart on multiple fronts. It makes absolutely no difference whether or not a person wants to see something that is demonstrably real. My car was broken into once I did not want to see it. But it was seen anyways upon discovery. I had to go to court once and I did not want to see the judge, but I had to anyways (and it did not violate my freewill because I still chose to go to court). I'm sorry, this line of reasoning of yours is total and complete bullshit. It doesn't work with fairies, unicorns, leprechauns, Santa Claus, and it doesn't work with your alleged god. All you're doing with these arguments is attempting to make your belief system immune from having to provide demonstrable evidence. It's one obfuscation after another with you.

The argument that God can do "anything" is also false. The bible says God CANNOT lie. So you are wrong. This alleged invisible "dude" cannot do anything, sorry.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #729 on: May 28, 2014, 04:10:27 AM »
Luk i want to see god i really do i will ....dear god please show yourself to me. please god i really want to see you. i will spend my life following your word and the bible except the rape slavery and genocide bits. so please show me you exist................. ....................................................crickets.............. nothing yet...... ..........luk how long this usually take?




amen.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #730 on: May 28, 2014, 04:16:04 AM »
.........oh shit holy fuk...... I'm seeing........ i ....i think i am seeing ......i feel......dggtrfgoknh%^^¥?<fggf^>[]++¤§<



nope didn't see it.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #731 on: May 28, 2014, 11:33:35 AM »
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL. You seem to think that my statement is something else. YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE/your free will (of not seeing him).

Then how in the hell do you think your concept of "God" makes himself known for the first time to those who had never heard of him before, and thus would have no "will" one way or the other to see or not see him?

Following your "logic", unless someone first clues in the ignorant person that a) there is a "God", and b) he wants your permission to reveal himself to you, then said ignorant person will never have the opportunity to know "God".

Following your "logic", from the dawn of modern man onwards, anyone born in an area of the world where your concept of "God" was not native to their culture will never know "God" unless the concept of "God" is introduced to them.


The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #732 on: May 28, 2014, 11:57:51 AM »
Then how in the hell do you think your concept of "God" makes himself known for the first time to those who had never heard of him before, and thus would have no "will" one way or the other to see or not see him?
God was known by Adam and Eve. He can present himself to those who don't know him. HE WON'T FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT HIM/SEE HIM, they can accept or refuse him. God is still waiting for you to accept him.
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #733 on: May 28, 2014, 11:59:24 AM »
I'd like to know where this 'free will' thingy is coming from. I have never heard the idea that god needs permission to reveal himself to a person. After all -

Did Moses ask to see the burning bush?
Did Abraham want to meet god and bargain for the people of Sodom?
Did all the people who met Jesus have to filling permission slips before seeing Jesus?

This sounds like something made up especially for here, 'on the hoof', but if it isn't, Please. Luk, tell us where it comes from. You have my permission to tell me too!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #734 on: May 28, 2014, 12:01:58 PM »
Luk i want to see god i really do i will ....dear god please show yourself to me. please god i really want to see you. i will spend my life following your word and the bible except the rape slavery and genocide bits. so please show me you exist................. ....................................................crickets.............. nothing yet...... ..........luk how long this usually take?
You'd need to confess first. All this sin ... it's frightening.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #735 on: May 28, 2014, 12:25:02 PM »
God was known by Adam and Eve. He can present himself to those who don't know him. HE WON'T FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT HIM/SEE HIM, they can accept or refuse him. God is still waiting for you to accept him.

Every human being who has ever been born was once in state of "not knowing him" before learning of his alleged existence through external sources (word of mouth, reading the Bible). And yet historical evidence shows that missionaries were needed in order to "enlighten" various "ignorant" tribes, civilizations and cultures from around the world as to his alleged existence. There is no evidence whatsoever of belief in the "Christian God" spontaneously appearing anywhere else around the globe without the aid of outside agents. If you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #736 on: May 28, 2014, 12:28:39 PM »
Then how in the hell do you think your concept of "God" makes himself known for the first time to those who had never heard of him before, and thus would have no "will" one way or the other to see or not see him?
God was known by Adam and Eve. He can present himself to those who don't know him. HE WON'T FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT HIM/SEE HIM, they can accept or refuse him. God is still waiting for you to accept him.
See that Disciple of Sagan?  God has presented himself to you, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.

Just like corn-god, the one true master of creation and Lord of all gods, like the one in the bible, has presented himself to Lukvance, regardless of his protestations to the contrary.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #737 on: May 28, 2014, 12:37:00 PM »
Just like corn-god, the one true master of creation and Lord of all gods,

You mean the corn-god... the one proven to exist as a separate entity outside of the human brain thanks to Anselm's ontological argument? :D
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #738 on: May 28, 2014, 12:43:40 PM »
You'd need to confess first. All this sin ... it's frightening.

Frightening to Whom, though?  If it were frightening to humans, most people would stop doing it.  Neither OAA nor I seem to be frightened by it either, so apparently "sin" only frightens the Biblical god and its minions.  Perhaps it has PTSD after the Talking Snake™ incident and has been in hiding ever since.
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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #739 on: May 28, 2014, 12:54:29 PM »
Then how in the hell do you think your concept of "God" makes himself known for the first time to those who had never heard of him before, and thus would have no "will" one way or the other to see or not see him?
God was known by Adam and Eve. He can present himself to those who don't know him. HE WON'T FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT HIM/SEE HIM, they can accept or refuse him. God is still waiting for you to accept him.

More preaching with no substance.  And so you present another logical fallacy - attempting to equate seeing with "accepting" (as if to say that anyone who sees will accept). But this is 100% false (as has been already shown by the words of your own bible). Lots of people and angels allegedly saw this alleged "Yahweh" and did not accept. So you are just wrong here. Plain and simple. Again, freewill has absolutely nothing to do with the matter. Just because someone sees something, or someone, does not in any way violate their freewill - nor does it mean the person must accept or 'follow' such a person or thing.

Sorry, demonstrating is not forcing. Those are two entirely different things and you are fallaciously attempting to conflate them (Fallacy of Equivocation).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 12:58:26 PM by median »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #740 on: May 28, 2014, 12:58:00 PM »
Just like corn-god, the one true master of creation and Lord of all gods,

You mean the corn-god... the one proven to exist as a separate entity outside of the human brain thanks to Anselm's ontological argument? :D
Well, that and something about love and math.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #741 on: May 28, 2014, 02:00:57 PM »
Did Moses ask to see the burning bush?
No, it was a miracle. Plus I don't think it was a real burning bush. It's just à story where the burning bush is the representation of God's undying love for us.
Quote
Did Abraham want to meet god and bargain for the people of Sodom?
Of course he wanted to. But again, it's a story where you learn that God is listening to your prayers.
Quote
Did all the people who met Jesus have to filling permission slips before seeing Jesus?
No. But they had to chose to follow him or not...willingly. Jesus did not FORCE THEM TO FOLLOW. Or FORCE THEM to come to him.
Quote
This sounds like something made up especially for here, 'on the hoof', but if it isn't, Please. Luk, tell us where it comes from. You have my permission to tell me too!
I don't understand the question. It doesn't make sense? I am unable too form ideas? Do I have them to be taught to me absolutely?
If you really need source there was that post about catechism...let me look for it. If you find it before me feel free to post it here.
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #742 on: May 28, 2014, 02:18:47 PM »
I want to know is this stuff about god breaching our free will be approaching us is Catholic teaching of your teaching. Which is it?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jtk73

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #743 on: May 28, 2014, 04:48:52 PM »
He could force them so see him but he choose not to.

Or....he could just show himself

Quote
(you agree?)

Absolutely not. Your arguments and claims are completely ridiculous.

Quote
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL.

How would a person know if they want to see him if that person doesn't know for certain that he exists?

Quote
YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE

[allcapsyelling]NO! I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE BECAUSE.... I DON'T SEE GOD![/allcapsyelling]

Quote
God can do anything....

...except create a world in which "freewill" exists but "sin" does not.

Quote
You are not more powerful than God.

Actually, I am. I could provide demonstrable evidence to every individual on this forum that I exist. (without making lame excuses about violating their "freewill".

You'd need to confess first. All this sin ... it's frightening.

WHAT? Now you are making more excuses. First you said that one only need look for God and they will find him. NOW you are saying "No. You need to confess first." You are so absolutely dishonest.

How can someone "confess" their "sins" if they aren't absolutely certain that the being they are confessing to, exists and what "sins" they have committed and why they require confession. What you are proposing is ludicrous.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #744 on: May 28, 2014, 04:52:49 PM »
Many of us were religious--some of us even Christians--and tried to keep hold of our faith as it slipped away. I have read moving accounts here and elsewhere of devout people, even nuns, priests and pastors, praying, weeping and begging for god to show himself so they could keep on believing.[1]

And they got zilch, nothing, nada. So after months or years of trying, they lost their faith.  They wanted to believe, but god evidently had better things to do than show up when asked.

So, did god violate their free will or not?

We have also heard from a few folks who said they were atheists and then suddenly had religious experiences and started believing in god. Boom, like a thunderclap. I personally know of two people who told me that. And there was this burger business guy here a while back who said he was an atheist and then god came to him while he was driving one night. [2]

They were not believers, not praying or wanting their sins forgiven or asking for god to show himself. Just going along their sinful way, lying, stealing, drinking, drugging and fornicating, minding their own business. (Remember how god does not show up in the presence of sin?) And out of the blue he revealed himself to them, like a flasher jumping out of an alley.[3]

So, did god violate their free will or not?
 1. This was pretty common among Jewish folks during the Holocaust. They wanted desperately to keep believing, but could not hold onto their faith after getting no sign of god. As one old man (now atheist) said in a documentary, "I do not think that god could have watched that and done nothing."
 2. Of course, although atheists, they were from predominantly Christian backgrounds and were well aware of the Christian god before they had the religious experience.
 3. I would have been far more impressed--and willing to think it was an actual god,  if they had been flashed by some god they had no previous knowledge of, like Rama hero god of Hinduism, or Yemaya, African goddess of the waters. But that never happens. It is always a god the person has already heard about.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #745 on: May 28, 2014, 11:13:43 PM »
I want to know is this stuff about god breaching our free will be approaching us is Catholic teaching of your teaching. Which is it?
Catholic's view is the same as mine.
Here is what the Catechism says : "God calls man first. Man may forget his Creator or hide far from his face; he may run after idols or accuse the deity of having abandoned him; yet the living and true God tirelessly calls each person to that mysterious encounter known as prayer. In prayer, the faithful God's initiative of love always comes first; our own first step is always a response. As God gradually reveals himself and reveals man to himself, prayer appears as a reciprocal call, a covenant drama. Through words and actions, this drama engages the heart. It unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation."[1]
 1. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c1.htm
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #746 on: May 28, 2014, 11:16:40 PM »
He could force them so see him but he choose not to.

Or....he could just show himself

Quote
(you agree?)

Absolutely not. Your arguments and claims are completely ridiculous.

Quote
IF MY WILL IS TO NOT SEE GOD AND GOD FORCE ME TO SEE HIM, IT WILL VIOLATE MY WILL.

How would a person know if they want to see him if that person doesn't know for certain that he exists?

Quote
YOU DON'T SEE GOD BECAUSE OF YOUR CHOICE

[allcapsyelling]NO! I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE BECAUSE.... I DON'T SEE GOD![/allcapsyelling]

Quote
God can do anything....

...except create a world in which "freewill" exists but "sin" does not.

Quote
You are not more powerful than God.

Actually, I am. I could provide demonstrable evidence to every individual on this forum that I exist. (without making lame excuses about violating their "freewill".

You'd need to confess first. All this sin ... it's frightening.

WHAT? Now you are making more excuses. First you said that one only need look for God and they will find him. NOW you are saying "No. You need to confess first." You are so absolutely dishonest.

How can someone "confess" their "sins" if they aren't absolutely certain that the being they are confessing to, exists and what "sins" they have committed and why they require confession. What you are proposing is ludicrous.
Who are you? What do you want?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #747 on: May 28, 2014, 11:20:09 PM »
So, did god violate their free will or not?
No he did not.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #748 on: May 29, 2014, 01:23:13 AM »
You need to explain how god suddenly revealing himself to someone who was blatantly not seeking him was not violating their free will. And how not revealing himself to people who were praying for a sign of his existence was not violating their free will.

What is free will, if some people get god when they don't want him, while and others don't get god when they do want him? The atheist secretly wants god, even though they don't know it. While the priest tearfully praying, begging god to keep his faith intact secretly hates god and wants no part of him.

Is that it? Is god a Freudian mind reader, delving into the person's unconscious?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #749 on: May 29, 2014, 03:35:47 AM »
I want to know is this stuff about god breaching our free will be approaching us is Catholic teaching of your teaching. Which is it?
Catholic's view is the same as mine.
Here is what the Catechism says : "God calls man first. Man may forget his Creator or hide far from his face; he may run after idols or accuse the deity of having abandoned him; yet the living and true God tirelessly calls each person to that mysterious encounter known as prayer. In prayer, the faithful God's initiative of love always comes first; our own first step is always a response. As God gradually reveals himself and reveals man to himself, prayer appears as a reciprocal call, a covenant drama. Through words and actions, this drama engages the heart. It unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation."[1]
 1. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c1.htm

I see how this is working now. The process described above doesn't need there to be a god at all - only a person. This is how it works. If one spends time, in quietness, thinking hard about something and really wanting to hear something, eventually the subconscious will start to oblige. Over a period of what we might call training, the mind starts to respond by popping ideas or answers into the conscious mind. Once that starts to happen, the person thinks they have heard god but they, in fact, only heard their own subconscious mind.

Get going with this prayer, study the Catholic doctrine and many people will sincerely believe that they have heard god, Jesus or Mary speak to them. It is just mind training that is going on - nothing else.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #750 on: May 29, 2014, 11:32:06 AM »
You might have missed my post (#735), Luk.

You claim that your "God" can present himself to those who do not know him. If this is the case, then why is there no historical evidence of Christianity spontaneously appearing all over the globe without any outside aid (missionaries)?

If you have evidence to the contrary, now is the time to present it.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline jtk73

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #751 on: May 29, 2014, 11:36:53 AM »
Who are you?

Duh! Look at my picture! I'm the creepy looking dude from Half-Life 2.

Quote
What do you want?

See those funny squiggles at the end of some of my statements "?" ? Those are called question marks and they usually indicate an interrogative statement. At this point, the person that those statements are addressed to, in this case - you, could attempt to formulate rational, well-thought-out responses to them. Or you could just ignore them.

Ultimately, what I want, would be for you to critically and honestly look at the responses that you type before you click "Post" and think "Is this logical?", "Does this make sense if not viewed through my God-GogglesTM?", "What would a person, that is not gullible like me, Lukvance, think about these claims?" and perhaps "I just pulled these answers out of my a$$. I hope that they don't still stink of excrement."

I say these things, not to be mean, but to encourage you to examine what you type for logic and consistency. Because your analogies are terrible and often times you post one claim only to completely contradict it a couple posts later. The mental gymnastics that you perform are astounding.

Thank you for you time.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #752 on: May 30, 2014, 01:00:57 AM »
I see how this is working now. The process described above doesn't need there to be a god at all - only a person. This is how it works. If one spends time, in quietness, thinking hard about something and really wanting to hear something, eventually the subconscious will start to oblige. Over a period of what we might call training, the mind starts to respond by popping ideas or answers into the conscious mind. Once that starts to happen, the person thinks they have heard god but they, in fact, only heard their own subconscious mind.
Get going with this prayer, study the Catholic doctrine and many people will sincerely believe that they have heard god, Jesus or Mary speak to them. It is just mind training that is going on - nothing else.
Is that your conscience talking? Or your subconscious? Or you, just typing words to see if they feel right? Are you satisfied with your answer?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #753 on: May 30, 2014, 01:11:26 AM »
You might have missed my post (#735), Luk.

Sorry, I didn't see any question mark in there. I might have passed over it and answered what I could.

Quote
You claim that your "God" can present himself to those who do not know him. If this is the case, then why is there no historical evidence of Christianity spontaneously appearing all over the globe without any outside aid (missionaries)?
 
I understand the words in your question but am having trouble grasping the type of response you are looking for. How would that look like? In Christianity is the word of Jesus spread around the world. Jesus was a living physical being located in one place, right? Maybe you are asking for historical evidence of God "talking" to humans? Like in the old testament?
You're worth more than my time