Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8197 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #667 on: May 25, 2014, 04:33:54 AM »
OK, Luk, you are messing around again and sidetracking.


Provide evidence that your god exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.



It looks like, at the moment, you are avoiding doing this. Do it now or concede that you cannot do so.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #668 on: May 25, 2014, 10:36:23 AM »
If the subject of the discussion was :"Why is the magic Santa Claus never found going down the chimney?" would you ask the person to prove that the magic Santa Claus exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
Can we bring the proof of a God that exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains to another thread please? That's what I asked since reply #657 that we move on from that claim.
For those who want to read about the proof of :"God that exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains" go to that thread.[1]
 1. God exists as a separate entity - separate from human thread
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #669 on: May 25, 2014, 12:07:14 PM »
Luk,

1. Let's not get sidetracked on Santa or anyone else.

2. Your thread when you claim to have shown that god is a separate existing being never really got anywhere - mostly because you presented Anselm's philosophical proofs which have been shown not to have any real application in the real world. Philosophical proofs can only be taken seriously for this purpose unless we can then be shown the real thing and not just words.

So, with that in mind, have you evidence (not philosophy) for the existence of god?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #670 on: May 25, 2014, 08:00:23 PM »
Luk,

1. Let's not get sidetracked on Santa or anyone else.

2. Your thread when you claim to have shown that god is a separate existing being never really got anywhere - mostly because you presented Anselm's philosophical proofs which have been shown not to have any real application in the real world. Philosophical proofs can only be taken seriously for this purpose unless we can then be shown the real thing and not just words.

So, with that in mind, have you evidence (not philosophy) for the existence of god?
I don't know. What kind of evidence are you talking about? If it's not philosophical nor by definition nor by testimony...I don't know what's left. Knowing that God doesn't have a physical body (beside Jesus).
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #671 on: May 25, 2014, 09:02:14 PM »
If you don't know of any other evidence than those you described then you are not ready for a discussion with adults.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #672 on: May 25, 2014, 09:07:45 PM »
If you don't know of any other evidence than those you described then you are not ready for a discussion with adults.
You don't know them (evidence of something immaterial to exist)  too. Simply because these reasons don't exist. Are you not ready for a discussion with adults?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #673 on: May 25, 2014, 09:10:21 PM »
Conflation. obfuscation - immature at best.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #674 on: May 25, 2014, 09:12:12 PM »
Conflation. obfuscation - immature at best.
Apparently not
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #675 on: May 25, 2014, 11:08:46 PM »
If the subject of the discussion was :"Why is the magic Santa Claus never found going down the chimney?" would you ask the person to prove that the magic Santa Claus exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?

I hope that we'd ask such a thing if someone was seriously arguing that Santa Claus did go down chimneys.  Physical actions should result in physical evidence, and if the physical evidence is lacking something just doesn't add up.   Why would an immaterial Santa even bother with a chimney if he could just teleport into someone's living with a sack full of presents?

Similarly, why would an immaterial god even bother with a Jesus avatar?  Why would it rely on human prophets to get its message out?  As in the Santa Chimney Fable, something simply doesn't add up.  Immaterial gods look very much like imaginary ones at this juncture.

Riddle Me this, Luk:  If your god exists outside the minds of believers, and has the potential to make itself known to all of humanity, why are only the believers convinced that it's real?
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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #676 on: May 25, 2014, 11:24:38 PM »
If the subject of the discussion was :"Why is the magic Santa Claus never found going down the chimney?" would you ask the person to prove that the magic Santa Claus exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?


Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #677 on: May 25, 2014, 11:29:14 PM »
Riddle Me this, Luk:  If your god exists outside the minds of believers, and has the potential to make itself known to all of humanity, why are only the believers convinced that it's real?
Because of free will. He doesn't force people to believe in him.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #678 on: May 25, 2014, 11:32:14 PM »
Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Your standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them. It is impossible to follow them.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #679 on: May 25, 2014, 11:33:17 PM »
Riddle Me this, Luk:  If your god exists outside the minds of believers, and has the potential to make itself known to all of humanity, why are only the believers convinced that it's real?
Because of free will. He doesn't force people to believe in him.

This is a totally bogus argument. Freewill has absolutely nothing to do with believing in something. According to the bible itself, Satan and his angels existed in the direct presence of the alleged God directly...and still chose to reject his command (allegedly). Sorry, freewill has nothing to do with this and this response is nonsense, also, since the bible clearly states that this God (again allegedly) physically manifested itself to many people throughout the ages.

Of course, we don't buy any these stories but they demonstrate that your "freewill" argument is empty.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #680 on: May 25, 2014, 11:36:40 PM »
Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Your standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them. It is impossible to follow them.

So all you can do now is resort to preaching and making empty claims in response? How about actually backing up your mere assertions instead of just continually claiming them in child-like fashion? I haven't even presented my standard of evidence in any clear way, except to say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Obviously you want to lower your standard only for your presuppositions. So you are practicing confirmation bias and intellectual hypocrisy because your own standard would not allow you to accept such extraordinary type claims with, for example, and salesman at your door. In past responses you have attempted (irrationally) to assert that whether or not someones extraordinary claims "effects" you matters to the truth value of the claim - when it does not whatsoever. Whether a given claim effects you makes no difference to whether or not a claim is true or not true. That is not an indicator for determining whether or not a magic claim (for example) is true or false. So once again, you are using irrational arguments to justify your religious presuppositions.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:41:35 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #681 on: May 26, 2014, 01:57:29 AM »
Yes, absolutely I would ask for demonstrable evidence because such a statement is making reference to a real, actual, Santa Claus that magically comes down the chimney and gives presents to people (just like your claim that this "God" thing actually manifests in reality and heals people). So, your tricks are laid bare for all see. You make claims about some invisible person called "God" that allegedly manifests in corporeal reality by healing people (etc) and as soon as you are asked for evidence of this you jump ship and start talking about what is "in the mind", as if that carries any weight to the discussion - when it doesn't. And really it's a red herring fallacy (and an equivocation fallacy) because we have been asking you for real, actual, demonstrable evidence of this alleged God (uhum...Santa) that allegedly does things in reality (i.e. - effects the physical realm). And merely stating that you can't explain certain things that happen in the world any other way than by a magic God thing is an argument from ignorance fallacy. You cannot explain one mystery by an appeal to an even bigger mystery.
Your standards for evidence (for immaterial things) are so high that even yourself cannot follow them. It is impossible to follow them.

Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"

Any deity claim has not met said standard, because said claims are inseparable from fiction. Meaning they are identical to falsehoods for all intents and purposes of any skeptic.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #682 on: May 26, 2014, 02:07:55 AM »
Immaterial things, like gravity? Or Radio waves? Or Radiation? My standards of evidence have been met. It is called "separable from fiction through testing"
Alright, if you think you can prove that gravity have an independent mind. I'm listening.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline eh!

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #683 on: May 26, 2014, 03:27:49 AM »
No you are being asked to prove god exists outside of the mind of the believer, trying to get others to prove gravity has a mind is a pathetic diversion but hey I'm going to be you for a minute.... luk since you are incapable of proving god exists outside of the mind of the believer then prove gravity does not have a mind that mass exists in.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #684 on: May 26, 2014, 01:08:05 PM »
Riddle Me this, Luk:  If your god exists outside the minds of believers, and has the potential to make itself known to all of humanity, why are only the believers convinced that it's real?
Because of free will. He doesn't force people to believe in him.

This is a totally bogus argument. Freewill has absolutely nothing to do with believing in something. According to the bible itself, Satan and his angels existed in the direct presence of the alleged God directly...and still chose to reject his command (allegedly). Sorry, freewill has nothing to do with this and this response is nonsense, also, since the bible clearly states that this God (again allegedly) physically manifested itself to many people throughout the ages.

Of course, we don't buy any these stories but they demonstrate that your "freewill" argument is empty.

Yep. Not only Satan and the angels. Human beings like Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc. all had direct contact with god and evidently, still had their free will. They could still obey god or not, and sometimes did disobey, using their free will. Even though they knew for sure that god was real. If you want to add in the NT, you have people who knew Jesus, who is also apparently god, and chose not to follow him. So, again, knowing that Jesus/god existed did not make free will invalid.

Until now, I guess, when there are lots more ways to prove things and show evidence than in bible times. Now somehow, god cannot show himself because it would violate free will, even though it did not in the olden days.

Lukvance, why keep bringing up an argument that your own religion refutes, over and over? Having sure evidence that your god exists does not invalidate free will. Therefore no reason whatsoever why your god cannot make himself known clearly to everyone, so all can decide whether to follow him, obey him or not.

Either 1)he is not very good at communicating, 2)he does not want everyone to know about him, or 3)he does not really exist. Which is it?

So, if free will is out, what other excuses (for your god's inability to show himself to everyone) have you got? Oh, yeah, sin. God won't show up where there is sin..... &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #685 on: May 26, 2014, 01:12:12 PM »
Placing my bet -

I bet the next excuse is that we have to believe in god for atrial period before he shows himself to us!

Now, am I right?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #686 on: May 26, 2014, 03:12:20 PM »
Placing my bet -

I bet the next excuse is that we have to believe in god for atrial period before he shows himself to us!

Now, am I right?

Oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense. We do that all the time in everyday life, giving our time, money and attention to imaginary things and people, until they actually become real to us. My imaginary husband, kid and housemate became real to me a few months ago--and just in time!

Paying for a house, clothes, food, transportation, schooling, medical insurance and vacations for an imaginary family was getting pretty expensive, and the neighbors were beginning to whisper behind my back. I was getting a bit tired of believing in after all those years, and was about to give up. But I had faith in their existence outside of my imagination.

After all, I once found a pattern in the leaves in my back yard that I interpreted as a message from my imaginary family. And I have read several testimonies from other people who also had imaginary families. And at long last, lo and behold, they became real to me! Praise Thor!

Now all I have to do is keep on believing in my imaginary million dollars until it appears in my bank account. When it does, I promise to share it with all of you. Meanwhile, I am accepting donations to care for my imaginary unicorn. And to construct my imaginary time travel machine. And to maintain my imaginary Martian colony.

Lukvance has already sent me his generous imaginary check.  ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #687 on: May 26, 2014, 04:13:35 PM »
Lukvance, why keep bringing up an argument that your own religion refutes
What argument are you referring to? What do mean by refute? Do you have proof? From the pope would be great. (he's the one representing my religion)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #688 on: May 26, 2014, 04:40:32 PM »
Lukvance, why keep bringing up an argument that your own religion refutes
What argument are you referring to? What do mean by refute? Do you have proof? From the pope would be great. (he's the one representing my religion)

The argument you have presented is that god cannot demonstrate his real existence to us because if he did, it would violate our free will.

Your religion refutes (disagrees with) this idea. The proof is in your own religious text, the bible, as well as any writings from Catholics who support the stories in the bible.

Many of the most important figures in your religion (Satan, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham) interacted directly with god, saw him, talked to him, etc. God talked directly to them, told them things to do and not do, etc. Often, even after experiencing god directly, there was disobedience or turning away from god. This means that free will to follow god or not was still present, even when god was right there physically.

If Jesus is divine or is in some way also god, same applies to the people who interacted directly with him. Some people who met Jesus followed him, and some did not. Some who met Jesus actually betrayed and crucified him. So, they evidently had their free will to go against god.

This is information from the religion you follow, is it not? So the idea that god cannot show himself to us, because it would violate our free will does not hold.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #689 on: May 26, 2014, 05:36:54 PM »
If he did, it would violate our free will.
Yes. But there seem to be a mistake here. Violate our free will to see him or not see him. Not violate our free will to do what he says or not.

Quote
Your religion refutes (disagrees with) this idea. The proof is in your own religious text, the bible, as well as any writings from Catholics who support the stories in the bible.
Again, what passage? Whom testimonies or statistics?

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Many of the most important figures in your religion (Satan, Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham) interacted directly with god, saw him, talked to him, etc. God talked directly to them, told them things to do and not do, etc. Often, even after experiencing god directly, there was disobedience or turning away from god. This means that free will to follow god or not was still present, even when god was right there physically.
Exact! It was different for the angels as they have greater intellect than us and don't live in time like us so they can't change their choice after like we can.

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If Jesus is divine or is in some way also god, same applies to the people who interacted directly with him. Some people who met Jesus followed him, and some did not. Some who met Jesus actually betrayed and crucified him. So, they evidently had their free will to go against god.
Yes!

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So the idea that god cannot show himself to us, because it would violate our free will does not hold.
It will violate my free will. If I don't want to see God I wont. It was the same for everyone who did not want to see God in Jesus.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #690 on: May 26, 2014, 06:20:33 PM »
Wait a minute. Did you say that people who want to see god are able to see god, and people who don't want to see god, cannot see god? You sound like people who look at clouds and see animal shapes, or the ancient people who saw pictures in the stars.

Did Abraham decide he wanted to see god before he saw the burning bush? I always thought it was a surprise. Suppose I think I see god in my morning toast. How would I tell if it was god I saw?

You have just made human beings more powerful than god.

I can, by not wanting to see god, make god disappear. Poof! No more god. What religion teaches that people are more powerful than god and can make him not be visible by force of will?

Does god want people to know about him or not? Why does perfect god just shift the responsibility back onto the flawed humans who make mistakes all the time?

If god wants people to see him, they will see him. If people do not see god, it has to be because god does not want to be seen, and hides from some people. Or is god not all powerful?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #691 on: May 26, 2014, 06:35:59 PM »
Did Abraham decide he wanted to see god before he saw the burning bush? I always thought it was a surprise.
The burning bush is not factual. It represent God's neverending burning love for us.

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Suppose I think I see god in my morning toast. How would I tell if it was god I saw?
Usually people know if it is really him by their feeling afterwards.

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You have just made human beings more powerful than god.
No! not at all.
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I can, by not wanting to see god, make god disappear. Poof! No more god.
Do you think that the world around you disappear when you close your eyes?
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What religion teaches that people are more powerful than god and can make him not be visible by force of will?
Not Catholicism.
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Does god want people to know about him or not?
God want people to chose him.
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Why does perfect god just shift the responsibility back onto the flawed humans who make mistakes all the time?
Because it is more rewarding for us.
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If god wants people to see him, they will see him. If people do not see god, it has to be because god does not want to be seen, and hides from some people. Or is god not all powerful?
God is all powerful and is waiting for you to open your eyes.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #692 on: May 26, 2014, 06:46:20 PM »
Again with people being more powerful than god, deciding whether or not to choose him! Like god is a piece of cake on a plate. 

If god wants certain people to choose him, those people will. If he does not want certain people to choose him, they will not. If god wants some people to have the wrong religion or no religion, it is up to god, because he made everything the way it is. God has already decided who will be atheist, who will be Muslim, and who will be Catholic.

All powerful beings do not need to "wait" for people to do anything. Or is there a different meaning of "all powerful" that allows for people to do stuff god does not want?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #693 on: May 26, 2014, 07:36:46 PM »
Again with people being more powerful than god, deciding whether or not to choose him! Like god is a piece of cake on a plate. 
People are not more powerful than God.
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If god wants certain people to choose him, those people will. If he does not want certain people to choose him, they will not.
If God want the people to chose him freely they will choose him freely.

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If god wants some people to have the wrong religion or no religion, it is up to god, because he made everything the way it is. God has already decided who will be atheist, who will be Muslim, and who will be Catholic.
Only us humans can decide what faith we will have.

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All powerful beings do not need to "wait" for people to do anything. Or is there a different meaning of "all powerful" that allows for people to do stuff god does not want?
God wants to wait :)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #694 on: May 26, 2014, 07:47:45 PM »
Exact[ly]! It was different for the angels as they have greater intellect than us and don't live in time like us so they can't change their choice after like we can.

Change their choice? As if that matters to the argument whatsoever. You keep trying to divert attention away from the actual subject at hand. It doesn't matter whatsoever about whether they could "change their choice". The facts is, according to your own doctrine these angels (and others) had DIRECT access to this alleged God, and their "freewill" was not violated. So stop being dishonest and just admit that you are mistaken with this argument. It doesn't work. Freewill has nothing to do with whether your alleged God can manifest to all directly and unequivocally (b/c he allegedly did so to lots of people).

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If Jesus is divine or is in some way also god, same applies to the people who interacted directly with him. Some people who met Jesus followed him, and some did not. Some who met Jesus actually betrayed and crucified him. So, they evidently had their free will to go against god.
Yes!

Yep. There ya go. So you just refuted your own argument. These people (again allegedly) still had "freewill" after having direct contact with Yahweh. So your argument fails and you can no longer use it as an excuse why your God doesn't manifest before all right now (i.e. - stop with the cloak and dagger shit).

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So the idea that god cannot show himself to us, because it would violate our free will does not hold.
It will violate my free will. If I don't want to see God I wont. It was the same for everyone who did not want to see God in Jesus.

No, it will not violate your freewill. You already admitted that it won't above. So stop with the cognitive dissonance and move on. God showing up (again allegedly) to the angels or the people in the bible, did not violate their freewill. So stop with this nonsense and get honest with yourself and others here.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #695 on: May 26, 2014, 07:51:32 PM »
People are not more powerful than God.


How wrong you are. The bible says that God cannot lie (for example). But I can. That (by definition) makes me more powerful because I can do something the alleged Yahweh is incapable of doing. So too, this deity allegedly cannot die, cease to exist, be in the presence of evil, or violate it's own alleged nature. But I can do all of those things. So I am more powerful than your imaginary God.

I am also more moral than your God because my moral system does not accept slavery, genocide, human sacrifice, infanticide, stoning gays and unruly children, and torture. In just about every way possible I am better, more moral, and more powerful than your God (and so are you and probably just about everyone here).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 07:55:13 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan