Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 10099 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #551 on: May 17, 2014, 06:28:05 PM »
Yes, after or before the stories, like you do with your kids.

Not to offend, but I am having a difficult time believing this. Can you point to a source that backs this up? I am specifically asking for proof that the apostles clearly stated to those that they preached to that the stories of the OT were not factual events.

Of course, this is what we call Sacred traditionWiki in Catholicism. It basically say that the mass is said the same way it was when Jesus told it. During the mass "on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, a homily, a sermon that draws upon some aspect of the readings or the liturgy of the day" is given.

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A suggestion, if I may. I think you should start a separate thread specifically to address the claims made by this site
Of course, I just used one of his phrases and, to avoid plagiarism, gave the link. Didn't read the rest of the website haha.

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The information in the link you provided makes a false assumption that the psalm reference to the sun's circuit was of a larger orbit around the galactic center and not the appearance of a circuit around the Earth (Aristarchus of Samos in the 3rd century BC is considered the first known to support a heliocentric model). It appears to me that the site in question is altering the actual meaning of the psalm using modern knowledge of astrophysics.

Do you believe the author of that psalm was privy to the knowledge of a heliocentric solar system that revolves around the galactic core (a notion the Catholic church up until 1993 believed was heretical)? How did he become privy to this information?
altering or discovering...It depends on how you see it. I see it as a discovery. Before your story of the sun I never give much thought to this passage of the bible. I find it amazing how sometime the bible fit with todays findings.

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  Non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences. There is no penalty.
Where does it say this, and by whose authority was this "pass" given?
How do you explain the contradiction between your opinion and 2 Thessalonians 1:8?
Sorry I copy paste the answer made to the previous post. I didn't think you wouldn't read it.
The pope said that according to this website
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #552 on: May 17, 2014, 07:04:39 PM »
My plans to head out to go see Godzilla were put on hold, so I have some free time for the next hour or so.

Of course, this is what we call Sacred traditionWiki in Catholicism. It basically say that the mass is said the same way it was when Jesus told it. During the mass "on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, a homily, a sermon that draws upon some aspect of the readings or the liturgy of the day" is given.

You might have forgotten the original point that was being addressed (understandable, as I know you are being inundated with questions from a multiple of different threads):

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Do you think it likely that the apostles added this disclaimer when preaching, for example, the Genesis account of creation: "What we are about to tell you is really just a parable and in no way should be taken literally."?


The Wiki page, while explaining Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, did not provide evidence one way or the other that the apostles (and those after them) put the stories of the OT in the context of being just that; stories not to be taken as historical fact (this being my original question a few posts prior).

So, we're back to square one.

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altering or discovering...It depends on how you see it.

Fair enough. However, the point of contention still stands as to what the author of Psalm 19:4-6 actual meant when he wrote it.

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Sorry I copy paste the answer made to the previous post. I didn't think you wouldn't read it.
The pope said that according to this website

I did read it. You do understand that this is one Pope's opinion, and that it has created quite the controversy amongst Christians (I listen to talk radio for 8 hours a day at work. In the weeks that followed the breaking of that news story, both the conservative hosts and those callers who identified as Catholic were overwhelmingly and vehemently opposed to atheists going to heaven).

Does this Pope's opinion negate what is stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #553 on: May 17, 2014, 09:26:36 PM »
The Wiki page, while explaining Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, did not provide evidence one way or the other that the apostles (and those after them) put the stories of the OT in the context of being just that; stories not to be taken as historical fact (this being my original question a few posts prior).

So, we're back to square one.
No! The Sacred Tradition and the conservation of the way mass is the evidence that apostles were doing the mass with the homily/sermon. This means that they had to explain what the message in the story was. To that you add the fact that most teacher use stories to enlighten their students and that during the time of Jesus what was interesting and easy to remember was stories, not historical facts. You understand now how I think the apostles used a disclaimer.

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You do understand that this is one Pope's opinion, and that it has created quite the controversy amongst Christians (I listen to talk radio for 8 hours a day at work. In the weeks that followed the breaking of that news story, both the conservative hosts and those callers who identified as Catholic were overwhelmingly and vehemently opposed to atheists going to heaven).
Does this Pope's opinion negate what is stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8?
Negate? No! Support? Yes. We need a deeper understanding of what 2 Thessalonians 1:8 means. But I'm not an apologetic. Plus ONE pope is way better than one priest to support my choice of faith.

And between you and me, what makes more sense from someone who loves you as much as Jesus loves you? That he punish to eternal suffering because you made one tiny mistake of not believing in him but still led a good live full of love and caring OR that he welcomes you to heaven you who has spread so much joy around you?
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #554 on: May 17, 2014, 10:25:08 PM »
To that you add the fact that most teacher use stories to enlighten their students and that during the time of Jesus what was interesting and easy to remember was stories, not historical facts. You understand now how I think the apostles used a disclaimer.

Actually, I do see how you could come to that conclusion, but it still does not mean it is true. An example:

I have a something important I need to share with you. Something that is so important I want to provide the information in a way that is easily remembered so that you may pass it along to others.

1) "Luk, what I am about to tell you actually happened. There was an old woman who swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she'll die."

2) "Luk, what I am about to tell you never actually happened. There was an old woman who swallowed a fly. I don't know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she'll die."

Now, do you think the disclaimer for either choice adds or subtracts from the ease of remembering? If it has no effect either way, then what purpose would the apostles have of prefacing any event from the Bible with it being a fictitious event if it had no effect whatsoever on it's capacity to be remembered? Is it not possible to talk about an actual, historical event in such a way to make it both interesting and easy to be remembered?

Perhaps it is just your particular Catholic religion that believes this because of the Christians I know and have known in real life... while varying to the degree of how much of the Bible is to be taken as historical fact... have never come out and claimed that the Good Book is comprised of fictitious stories to the extent that you have claimed.

Putting aside oral tradition, do you believe that the Bible as we know it today is written in a such a way to be "easy to remember"? Speaking for myself, I would say that it is not.

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Negate? No! Support? Yes. We need a deeper understanding of what 2 Thessalonians 1:8 means. But I'm not an apologetic. Plus ONE pope is way better than one priest to support my choice of faith.

I'm confused. You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 says there is a penalty for not believing in Christ. This is clearly a contradiction. What deeper understanding is there for a passage that states "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus".

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And between you and me, what makes more sense from someone who loves you as much as Jesus loves you? That he punish to eternal suffering because you made one tiny mistake of not believing in him but still led a good live full of love and caring OR that he welcomes you to heaven you who has spread so much joy around you?

It's a nice sentiment. Sort of a "you can have your cake and eat it, too" religion where as long as you lead a good life minimizing the harm inflicted upon others, you get rewarded in the afterlife. Unfortunately, Christianity is by no stretch of the imagination an example of this.

To be blunt, it sounds to me like Catholicism is attempting to sweep underneath the carpet every vile, sadistic and murderous act attributed to God in the OT... which without it there would be no Christianity... in order to win over more converts. "You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar" as the old adage goes. Just my opinion.

Nothing about this religion, or any other one for that matter, makes "sense" to me. And that includes Jesus and the myths involving him. But that is a discussion for another time.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #555 on: May 17, 2014, 11:01:04 PM »
You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ.

The Pope don't say that. The issue was previously about whether atheists could do good without God. That's as far as the Pope went.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

The rest has been invented by chinese whispers on blogs.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #556 on: May 17, 2014, 11:04:15 PM »
Now, do you think the disclaimer for either choice adds or subtracts from the ease of remembering?
No. But I was emphasizing the fact that apostles talked of the bible after reciting it. To explain in details.

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what purpose would the apostles have of prefacing any event from the Bible with it being a fictitious event if it had no effect whatsoever on it's capacity to be remembered? Is it not possible to talk about an actual, historical event in such a way to make it both interesting and easy to be remembered?
No prefacing needed. Using a story instead of history is what makes it easier to remember, not the fact that there was a preface or not.
Yes it is possible to make historical event interesting and easy to remember...once you add some extraordinary elements (like "bring me my brown pants!") it becomes easier to remember.

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Perhaps it is just your particular Catholic religion that believes this because of the Christians I know and have known in real life... while varying to the degree of how much of the Bible is to be taken as historical fact... have never come out and claimed that the Good Book is comprised of fictitious stories to the extent that you have claimed.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is absolutely no part of the old testament that is factual. I'm saying that it make more sense to me that there are no historical events in it than that they are all historical events.
Yesterday again I talked about the flood with a priest...it was funny how he quickly agreed with me that it is not factual.

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Putting aside oral tradition, do you believe that the Bible as we know it today is written in a such a way to be "easy to remember"? Speaking for myself, I would say that it is not.
It is hard to put oral tradition aside. It was a way of life back then, there were people who the only job was to learn the Bible...their whole life! I have to agree with you, I find it difficult to remember the old testament. But my brain is not wired like theirs. Oh! I just thought of all the Jews...they remember it, right? So it must not be impossible :)

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I'm confused. You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 says there is a penalty for not believing in Christ. This is clearly a contradiction. What deeper understanding is there for a passage that states "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus".

Maybe God is a synonym of love in that context and the Jesus ask us to love each other so...that would be ok for a non loving human to be punished no? As I said i'm not an apologetic.

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Unfortunately, Christianity is by no stretch of the imagination an example of this.

You are learning differently today. Remember before you thought that all Christians believed the bible to be historical facts. Now you know that most of us don't! Maybe there are other "truth" like that one that need to be shattered.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #557 on: May 17, 2014, 11:06:33 PM »
The Pope don't say that. The issue was previously about whether atheists could do good without God. That's as far as the Pope went.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

The rest has been invented by chinese whispers on blogs.

Thanks for the correction, AH.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #558 on: May 17, 2014, 11:08:51 PM »
You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ.

The Pope don't say that. The issue was previously about whether atheists could do good without God. That's as far as the Pope went.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

The rest has been invented by chinese whispers on blogs.
Here is what the Pope said :
"First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.
Given that—and this is fundamental—God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience.
In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil.
The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision."
I don't understand how you can translate that to "Atheist will go to hell!"
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 11:10:36 PM by Lukvance »
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #559 on: May 17, 2014, 11:15:19 PM »
You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ.

The Pope don't say that. The issue was previously about whether atheists could do good without God. That's as far as the Pope went.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

The rest has been invented by chinese whispers on blogs.
Here is what the Pope said :
"First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.
Given that—and this is fundamental—God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience.
In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil.
The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision."
I don't understand how you can translate that to "Atheist will go to hell!"

You've done it again Luk: changed the burden of the argument.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #560 on: May 17, 2014, 11:33:36 PM »
I feel as if this particular line of discussion has run it's course for the time being. Anything further would feel more like nit-picking, and it's too late here to put my heart in to trying.

While I do have a better understanding of why you have reached certain conclusions in regards to your faith, I also think that it has been shown that a good portion of your beliefs are based upon personal interpretations and, as you yourself have stated, "what makes the most sense" even if it goes against what is stated in the Bible.

You are learning differently today. Remember before you thought that all Christians believed the bible to be historical facts. Now you know that most of us don't! Maybe there are other "truth" like that one that need to be shattered.

Just to clarification, I never originally claimed all Christians believed in a literal view of the Bible, just most.

<shrug> I always try to keep an open mind, but honestly I did not see any evidence or argument presented to change my views about God and religion. While I was doing my best to adopt the stance of a theist during our conversations, as an atheist I can only go so far with suspending my disbelief.

I'll step aside and leave the discussion to those with a better grasp of the subject matter. Thanks again for the chat.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #561 on: May 17, 2014, 11:56:19 PM »
You (and the Pope) claim there is no penalty for not believing in Christ.

The Pope don't say that. The issue was previously about whether atheists could do good without God. That's as far as the Pope went.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

The rest has been invented by chinese whispers on blogs.
Here is what the Pope said :
"First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith.
Given that—and this is fundamental—God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience.
In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil.
The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision."
I don't understand how you can translate that to "Atheist will go to hell!"
You've done it again Luk: changed the burden of the argument.
I'm sorry what? What argument are you talking about?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #562 on: May 18, 2014, 12:31:00 AM »
Yesterday again I talked about the flood with a priest...it was funny how he quickly agreed with me that it is not factual.

Yes, it is funny.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #563 on: May 18, 2014, 12:32:07 AM »
Playing dumb to avoid a question.  To luk's post above homs.



i think the whole bible is funny even funnier are those that think it is true.


of course there are xtians that think the flood story is false they have no religion left and yet nobody can reliably claim such a flood occurred.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 12:36:11 AM by eh! »
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #564 on: May 18, 2014, 12:35:10 AM »
Playing dumb to avoid a question.

Can you remember what the argument was, Eh? Was it something about missionaries saying atheists could go to heaven without belief in Jesus?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #565 on: May 18, 2014, 12:38:48 AM »
Its eh! not Eh?

dunno hard keeping up with luks constant change in direction.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #566 on: May 18, 2014, 12:59:06 AM »
Apologize ....oh shit that's funny.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #567 on: May 18, 2014, 01:12:02 AM »
I once told a Christian on an apologetics forum to apologise, but he didn't get it.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #568 on: May 18, 2014, 01:15:21 AM »
They don't get much.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #569 on: May 18, 2014, 04:48:00 AM »
I have removed  posts 552, 553, 568, 572 and 573[1] which concerned whether or not Lukvance had used illogical arguments. The posts generated more heat that light.

I would remind members that Lukvance is heavily outnumbered and to save him time, your questions about his statements should, where possible, contain quotes and examples rather than, say, links or general references.

Lukvance,
I also remind you not to answer questions with questions – even for clarification. If you are concerned what a questioner is asking, start your answer with, e.g. “If you are asking/saying …. Then…”

I say this as you seem to give out very little information or justification for many of your statements, and this has caused problems.

Thank you all for your time

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 1. By the magic of the internets, the remaining questions have now renumbered themselves
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #570 on: May 18, 2014, 05:19:05 AM »
Luk, I agree with Disciple of Sagan - start a new thread to discuss science and the bible. It isn't going to help here and is likely to lead off the main point.

I not what you say about the apostles correctly passing on the information that appears in the gospels but, sadly, there is no evidence of this at all. Likely as not, there is no possible evidence of this so this has to be taken as belief without evidence. This gets us back to Golden Plates....

Earlier you said, since the golden plates were not longer around you would not choose to be a Mormon. Yet the same thing applies ot every religion more or less. There is no evidence of Jesus left except the accounts that were written a long time after his supposed death. If one cannot believe the evidence of those who saw the golden plates and certified that they did - some of this is in newspapers of the time - how can one then move on to say that one believes an old book for which there is no outside evidence at all? Sure there has been Christians for as long as before 100CE but then, in a thousand years there will probably still be Mormons still knocking on people's doors and annoying them! The length of time an organisation has been running does not make it true!

Again, you believe the gospels, which have quite a lot of contradictory material yet not the Qur'an - a later presentation of god's purpose for the world. Are you a Catholic first and then defending it, or are you telling us why you chose to be a Catholic?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #571 on: May 18, 2014, 09:31:10 AM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Do people lie, hallucinate, and exaggerate? Yes or No.
Yes! I love yes and no questions! More! :)

If that is true, then testimony could be in contradiction to fact, either through intent or without intent? Yes or No.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #572 on: May 18, 2014, 11:11:09 AM »
Another yes/ no question, then, Luk.

Who benefits from starting any religion -

a. the followers who gain from subjecting themselves the the religions requirements including coughing up hard earned cash

OR

b. Those who set up a religion and who gain status, money and influence

Sorry, its an a. or b. question this one.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #573 on: May 18, 2014, 11:39:16 AM »
I not what you say about the apostles correctly passing on the information that appears in the gospels but, sadly, there is no evidence of this at all. Likely as not, there is no possible evidence of this so this has to be taken as belief without evidence. This gets us back to Golden Plates....

Oh no no no. Golden plates don't have history on their side. History teach us that people in that time learned lessons on the "good or bad" in the form of stories. But this is another subject too.

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Earlier you said, since the golden plates were not longer around you would not choose to be a Mormon.

Well if the golden plate were melted into a crown or given to the poor I wouldn't mind, but they where lifted by god. They disappeared into thin air in front of Jhon and god told them they will never appear again.

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Yet the same thing applies ot every religion more or less. There is no evidence of Jesus left except the accounts that were written a long time after his supposed death.

There are some other historical evidence. There some scripture made by non believers that support the story in the bible. And the accounts weren't written a long time after. The time after his resurrection was really short compared to the time took by other books to be written. And you trust those to be historically correct.

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how can one then move on to say that one believes an old book for which there is no outside evidence at all?
But there is evidence from outside the book. You can read about it here

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The length of time an organisation has been running does not make it true!
I agree with you. The good this organisation bring into the world does.

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Again, you believe the gospels, which have quite a lot of contradictory material yet not the Qur'an - a later presentation of god's purpose for the world.

Yes I do believe in the gospels. And I disagree the gospels do not have a lot of contradictory material. We could talk about those in another thread if you want. But claims like this one should be supported.
There are contradictions in the Qur'an. The most blatant one is about how you must respect and love other religions but must also kill them.

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Are you a Catholic first and then defending it, or are you telling us why you chose to be a Catholic?
I chose to be a catholic because it was the religion who had the best impact on me.
Mormons wanted me to give them 10% of my salary
Muslims didn't allow me to eat bacon.
Jews didn't allow me to enter their group because I didn't have the blood.
Hindu's didn't want me to have only one life. (one is enough)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #574 on: May 18, 2014, 11:40:55 AM »
If that is true, then testimony could be in contradiction to fact, either through intent or without intent? Yes or No.
Yes. It could be the truth too either through intent or without intent. It's 50/50.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #575 on: May 18, 2014, 11:42:43 AM »
Another yes/ no question, then, Luk.
Yay! I love those.

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Who benefits from starting any religion -
a. the followers who gain from subjecting themselves the the religions requirements including coughing up hard earned cash
OR
b. Those who set up a religion and who gain status, money and influence
Sorry, its an a. or b. question this one.
b. That's one of the other reason I didn't want to be a Mormon.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #576 on: May 18, 2014, 05:15:31 PM »
If that is true, then testimony could be in contradiction to fact, either through intent or without intent? Yes or No.
Yes. It could be the truth too either through intent or without intent. It's 50/50.
So if someone says they went to Mars and saw fairies and those fairies had specific life instruction that you must follow or Earth will be destroyed and those instructions included paying said person a salary..you assign it a 50% chance of being factual? Yes or No.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 05:17:05 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #577 on: May 18, 2014, 05:34:18 PM »
I chose to be a catholic because it was the religion who had the best impact on me.
Mormons wanted me to give them 10% of my salary
Muslims didn't allow me to eat bacon.
Jews didn't allow me to enter their group because I didn't have the blood.
Hindu's didn't want me to have only one life. (one is enough)

So basically, you did not become Catholic because you critically researched it and found it to be true (with demonstrable evidence). You chose it purely out of taste. Once again you have contradicted yourself because earlier you said this was not about opinion (i.e. - taste), and now you just admitted that it was about taste (like/dislike) instead of what is actually demonstrably true.

You started with your conclusion that one of the religions must be true and now you are working backwards. That is called confirmation bias. You are counting the "hits" and ignoring the misses. You are in error in your thinking and if you want to be rational then you must correct your beliefs to fit with rationality instead of pretending that you have actual evidence of the claims you began with.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #578 on: May 18, 2014, 08:07:18 PM »
Lukvance, try sikhism.

One god. Goal is serve humanity and be selfless. Eat all the meat you want. They welcome all with open arms, and their Gurdawara is available for anyone to come to.

And they don't refuse science.

However, they still believe in a god, that's why I am a sikh only by values.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #579 on: May 19, 2014, 07:44:04 AM »
Lukvance, try sikhism.

One god. Goal is serve humanity and be selfless. Eat all the meat you want. They welcome all with open arms, and their Gurdawara is available for anyone to come to.

And they don't refuse science.

However, they still believe in a god, that's why I am a sikh only by values.

I like Jainism; they're nonviolent and have no god/s. Of course I could never live up to their tenets.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.