Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 8161 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #493 on: May 16, 2014, 11:06:23 AM »
And what, pray tell, is the message that god is trying to get across with this story, and in what was is this story a superior way of delivering that message than simply speaking in plain terms?
He spoke in plain terms (the 10 commandments) and added stories because it was how people remember and teach things before printing. Through stories.
The message is really simple. Follow me, I love you.

I asked about the particular story regarding the bears.  Are you saying that you get 'follow me, I love you' from that story?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #494 on: May 16, 2014, 11:15:32 AM »
The message is really simple. Follow me, I love you or I will torture you FOREVER!
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #495 on: May 16, 2014, 11:23:25 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

Well, let's start this again, then.

There are a few obvious reason why God would not talk to us in an obvious manner
(1) He's not there
(2) He wants to find telepathic humans, which he has spent 50,000 years breeding
(3) He is selecting only 144,000 perfect humans, so only the God receptive ones succeed
(4) He's waiting for humans to invent the true religion, at which point he will start talking. This is not implausible, since he supposedly waited to send Moses and Jesus
(5) .... I can probably keep making up reasons

However, "free will" is not one that is a logical reason, because (1) it's not scripturally supported, and (2) those who believe in God for some arbitrary reason, no longer really have free will, or now have a different type of informed free will.

If "free will" was scripturally supported, we would have passages such as "And God gave people a free will to believe in him or not, because to compel people would be against his ethics". Instead, in the Hebrew scriptures, we get threats. Then in the NT scripture we get more threats, and the implication that Jesus is proof that God exists, and anyone who doubts this is evil. Therefore, the mentality of the NT is proof based, rather than free will based. We don't get missionaries telling Africans that they have the free will to believe in God. They say, instead, that God will send you to hell, if you don't believe our proof that Christ is God. If you argue that Jesus is poorly documented, then out come the proof-based arguments about martyrs and people who meticulously maintained scripture, and wouldn't lie. The assertion of Christians, is always that Jesus is irrefutable.

To come along and then say that God made proof of Jesus deliberately tenuous, so that we would have the free will to believe, is stretching credibility a bit thin.

Make up your minds, eh?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #496 on: May 16, 2014, 11:24:31 AM »
I asked about the particular story regarding the bears.  Are you saying that you get 'follow me, I love you' from that story?
I'm sorry I mixed our 2 conversations. I thought you were asking about the message in the whole Bible
The message that I get from the bears story is a simple one. Mockery is bad.
Lol I was wondering why others where mocking me, now I get it.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #497 on: May 16, 2014, 11:32:02 AM »
The short answer : Because of your freedom.
God does not hide from you but he respects your freedom. He won't talk to you if you don't want to. Making you believe, he could, but he wants you to chose him freely.

Well, let's start this again, then.

There are a few obvious reason why God would not talk to us in an obvious manner
(1) He's not there
(2) He wants to find telepathic humans, which he has spent 50,000 years breeding
(3) He is selecting only 144,000 perfect humans, so only the God receptive ones succeed
(4) He's waiting for humans to invent the true religion, at which point he will start talking. This is not implausible, since he supposedly waited to send Moses and Jesus
(5) .... I can probably keep making up reasons

However, "free will" is not one that is a logical reason, because (1) it's not scripturally supported, and (2) those who believe in God for some arbitrary reason, no longer really have free will, or now have a different type of informed free will.

If "free will" was scripturally supported, we would have passages such as "And God gave people a free will to believe in him or not, because to compel people would be against his ethics". Instead, in the Hebrew scriptures, we get threats. Then in the NT scripture we get more threats, and the implication that Jesus is proof that God exists, and anyone who doubts this is evil. Therefore, the mentality of the NT is proof based, rather than free will based. We don't get missionaries telling Africans that they have the free will to believe in God. They say, instead, that God will send you to hell, if you don't believe our proof that Christ is God. If you argue that Jesus is poorly documented, then out come the proof-based arguments about martyrs and people who meticulously maintained scripture, and wouldn't lie. The assertion of Christians, is always that Jesus is irrefutable.

To come along and then say that God made proof of Jesus deliberately tenuous, so that we would have the free will to believe, is stretching credibility a bit thin.

Make up your minds, eh?
My mind is made up. I don't understand what are you asking.
I have to admit at the beginning I thought that God didn't talk to those who did not want to hear. This conversation made me realize that God talk to them, they just don't listen.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #498 on: May 16, 2014, 11:37:40 AM »
My mind is made up. I don't understand what are you asking.
I have to admit at the beginning I thought that God didn't talk to those who did not want to hear. This conversation made me realize that God talk to them, they just don't listen.

What evidence do you have that "God" is talking to us in this conversation?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #499 on: May 16, 2014, 11:40:59 AM »
My mind is made up. I don't understand what are you asking.
I have to admit at the beginning I thought that God didn't talk to those who did not want to hear. This conversation made me realize that God talk to them, they just don't listen.

Do you mean he is talking through your knowledgeable counsel? Or you can hear what he is telling me right to my ear from direct conversation with him?

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #500 on: May 16, 2014, 12:09:33 PM »
God talk to each of us, individually. We have the choice to listen to him or not.
Sin is what makes me not listen to God. Others, they are angry with him. Others don't want to believe he talks to them.
I have trouble listening to what God tells me, I will have more trouble listening to what he has to say to you. But today I asked him (because of epidemic question) and he told me that he was screaming his love to you. That's all :(
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #501 on: May 16, 2014, 12:17:22 PM »
God talk to each of us, individually. We have the choice to listen to him or not.
Sin is what makes me not listen to God. Others, they are angry with him. Others don't want to believe he talks to them.
I have trouble listening to what God tells me, I will have more trouble listening to what he has to say to you. But today I asked him (because of epidemic question) and he told me that he was screaming his love to you. That's all :(

Prove it.

You just keep making claims, claims, and more claims without evidence. The Mormons and Muslims say the same thing. Again, all you've done is ASSUMED your interpretation of the bible is true - without having ever critically analyzed it first. And that is the only real reason why you are choosing to claim that the voice you hear in your head is "God" and why you are choosing to say "God talk to each of us..."

Again, prove it.

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« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:19:20 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #502 on: May 16, 2014, 12:19:01 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:20:37 PM by Lukvance »
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #503 on: May 16, 2014, 12:20:01 PM »
God talk to each of us, individually.

Prove it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #504 on: May 16, 2014, 12:20:16 PM »
What does your gods voice sound like?

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #505 on: May 16, 2014, 12:25:59 PM »
Oh! Don't misunderstand me, I believe that the Bible is the word of God. As Jesus himself showed with the parables God love using stories (without actual facts in them) to get the message across.

Try to look at what you have just said from a neutral viewpoint.

According to your statement, your God's intent... through the use of a multitude of different authors over the course of centuries... was to make available to mankind what would later become an entire book of non-factual stories of his own devising.

There are many problems with this explanation, the first being that many of these non-factual stories were conveyed to these various human authors by your God to appear to be historical events (the Exodus, the Great Flood etc. ad nauseam).

As an impartial observer, wouldn't you find it extremely counter productive for a supposedly omniscient God to use fabricated stories as his preferred method, knowing full well these parables wrapped in faux historical contexts would and could be easily shown not to have actually happened as depicted in the Bible?

Imagine a Christian missionary back in the days of ancient Egypt telling the tale of the Ten Plagues with his Egyptian audience looking at one another in befuddlement, saying "I don't recall that happening, do you?", or "That's odd. There's nothing at all about such an event in our records."

Again, as a neutral observer, wouldn't you think us skeptical by nature human beings would be better swayed/converted by a holy book that makes factual claims about the reality we live in that can be backed up with evidence, or, at the very least the illusion of being backed up by evidence.

This is why your particular opinion about the Bible (with the exception of the Gospels according to your beliefs) being a book of fables is not the view held by a majority of Christians. They were indoctrinated in to a religion that taught that the "Good Book" was a overwhelmingly a history book with some parables mixed-in and not the other way around.

Quote
There is not much about the stories in the Bible being true or not. So I read them and made my own conclusions.

An honest answer. I thank you for sharing that.

Unfortunately, it leads us back to square one of we atheists needing to question why you feel your own conclusions are more valid than that held by both the majority of your average Christians and those who are experts in theology.

edited for spelling
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:28:52 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #506 on: May 16, 2014, 12:30:38 PM »
God talk to each of us, individually. We have the choice to listen to him or not.
Sin is what makes me not listen to God. Others, they are angry with him. Others don't want to believe he talks to them.
I have trouble listening to what God tells me, I will have more trouble listening to what he has to say to you. But today I asked him (because of epidemic question) and he told me that he was screaming his love to you. That's all :(

I am quite sure that the creator of the universe, worker of miracles like the flood, lighter of the burning bush.  Is capable of being heard.   Perhaps he should try to yell in the audible range.  Because apparently I am not getting his message.   Lets hear a booming voice that comes from everwhere that I can not avoid.   Because screaming at my soul is apparently not working.


If I was talking to my son quietly asking him to do something and he either did not understand or could not hear me I would not continue to allow this to go on.  I would modify the presentation of my message, raise my voice, explain it in another way, make sure I had eye contact...  There is something strange about wispering a message and wispering it again and again with no positive response of feedback.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:42:52 PM by epidemic »

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #507 on: May 16, 2014, 12:33:28 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?

Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:35:17 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #508 on: May 16, 2014, 12:42:52 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?

Do people lie, hallucinate, and exaggerate? Yes or No.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #509 on: May 16, 2014, 12:48:07 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?

Do people lie, hallucinate, and exaggerate? Yes or No.

genghis khan was not a christian but he heard voices that seemed to guide him well for his entire life.  Should I believe his religious take on things from the witches and mystics who advised him and his voices.  They advised him into sacking most of christiandome so his god apparently was somewhat more effective.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #510 on: May 16, 2014, 12:56:11 PM »
Oh! Don't misunderstand me, I believe that the Bible is the word of God. As Jesus himself showed with the parables God love using stories (without actual facts in them) to get the message across.

Try to look at what you have just said from a neutral viewpoint.

According to your statement, your God's intent... through the use of a multitude of different authors over the course of centuries... was to make available to mankind what would later become an entire book of non-factual stories of his own devising.

There are many problems with this explanation, the first being that many of these non-factual stories were conveyed to these various human authors by your God to appear to be historical events (the Exodus, the Great Flood etc. ad nauseam).

As an impartial observer, wouldn't you find it extremely counter productive for a supposedly omniscient God to use fabricated stories as his preferred method, knowing full well these parables wrapped in faux historical contexts would and could be easily shown not to have actually happened as depicted in the Bible?

Imagine a Christian missionary back in the days of ancient Egypt telling the tale of the Ten Plagues with his Egyptian audience looking at one another in befuddlement, saying "I don't recall that happening, do you?", or "That's odd. There's nothing at all about such an event in our records."

Again, as a neutral observer, wouldn't you think us skeptical by nature human beings would be better swayed/converted by a holy book that makes factual claims about the reality we live in that can be backed up with evidence, or, at the very least the illusion of being backed up by evidence.

This is why your particular opinion about the Bible (with the exception of the Gospels according to your beliefs) being a book of fables is not the view held by a majority of Christians. They were indoctrinated in to a religion that taught that the "Good Book" was a overwhelmingly a history book with some parables mixed-in and not the other way around.

Quote
There is not much about the stories in the Bible being true or not. So I read them and made my own conclusions.

An honest answer. I thank you for sharing that.

Unfortunately, it leads us back to square one of we atheists needing to question why you feel your own conclusions are more valid than that held by both the majority of your average Christians and those who are experts in theology.

edited for spelling
I really don't see the harm in it. Stories were the way people learned things. Oral tradition was used to teach. The Egyptian in your example was more probably not interested by the facts but by what the story would teach him.
Mormons use a holy book that makes factual claims about the reality we live in that can be backed up with evidence (they claim). Does it help getting the message across? I don't think so.
"why you feel your own conclusions are more valid than that held by both the majority of your average Christians and those who are experts in theology." It's not the majority at my church. Are there numbers out there that support this claim?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #511 on: May 16, 2014, 12:57:20 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
Yes.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Online Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #512 on: May 16, 2014, 01:06:45 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Do people lie, hallucinate, and exaggerate? Yes or No.
Yes! I love yes and no questions! More! :)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #513 on: May 16, 2014, 01:09:19 PM »
lukvance

could you please address my two posts

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #514 on: May 16, 2014, 01:11:41 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
Yes.

Really. So you accept the claims of Mormonism AND Islam as true?? Could you get anymore irrational?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #515 on: May 16, 2014, 01:16:07 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
Yes.

Really. So you accept the claims of Mormonism AND Islam as true?? Could you get anymore irrational?

I believe he can.

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This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #516 on: May 16, 2014, 01:26:13 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
Yes.
Really. So you accept the claims of Mormonism AND Islam as true?? Could you get anymore irrational?
OTHER : Only the claims about God talking to them....as long as they make sense to me of course (no "he told me to punch you in the face")
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #517 on: May 16, 2014, 01:29:16 PM »
lukvance
could you please address my two posts
I'm sorry. I don't get what your question is from the first. And No for the second.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #518 on: May 16, 2014, 01:34:00 PM »
Prove what? How?
Would testimony from other people suffice as proof?
Does "testimony" from Mormons or Muslims suffice for you as proof that their experiences are what they say they are?
Yes.
Really. So you accept the claims of Mormonism AND Islam as true?? Could you get anymore irrational?
OTHER : Only the claims about God talking to them....as long as they make sense to me of course (no "he told me to punch you in the face")

So you would accept their claims that their claimed god is actually talking to them?

I first asked you if you would accept personal "testimony", by a Mormon or a Muslim, that they were in fact talking to their god, the deity they claim to believe in. I could use a similar example about alien abductions, hearing voices from the dead, or levitation. In another post you admitted that people can lie, be mistaken, or be delusional. If this is the case, are you saying that you would accept claims of the supernatural or miraculous, by Mormons or Muslims, on testimony alone (as you just indicated a few moments ago)?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #519 on: May 16, 2014, 01:36:08 PM »
I really don't see the harm in it.

This is where we obviously have a major disagreement. It is my contention that having one's view of reality shaped by fictitious stories rather than observable and testable evidence to be a detriment to our advancement as a species.

Quote
Stories were the way people learned things. Oral tradition was used to teach. The Egyptian in your example was more probably not interested by the facts but by what the story would teach him.

Strongly disagree. If you have a missionary imparting the full message of Christianity including the penalty for failing to convert (eternal damnation), then to think that anyone would base such a life-altering decision on a story seems ludicrous.

Quote
Mormons use a holy book that makes factual claims about the reality we live in that can be backed up with evidence (they claim). Does it help getting the message across? I don't think so.

Really? If you were a non-believer faced with two or more competing religions vying for your conversion with each and every one claiming that they and they alone represent the One True Word of God, then wouldn't you take in to consideration which faith can back up this statement with actual evidence? Do you also feel that there is no need for actual evidence that Jesus died for your sins on the cross and then resurrected to get his message across?

Quote
Are there numbers out there that support this claim?
I think I may have to retract my claim, as it appears that according to various polls only 1/3 of Christians take the Bible literally.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #520 on: May 16, 2014, 01:49:05 PM »
I asked about the particular story regarding the bears.  Are you saying that you get 'follow me, I love you' from that story?
I'm sorry I mixed our 2 conversations. I thought you were asking about the message in the whole Bible
The message that I get from the bears story is a simple one. Mockery is bad.
And how is telling the story of someone imploring the LORD to curse the children, thereby causing bears to maul them, a superior way of passing the message 'mockery is bad' than to simply state 'mockery is bad'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #521 on: May 16, 2014, 01:58:29 PM »
So you would accept their claims that their claimed god is actually talking to them?
Yes. If it does not impact my liberty.
Quote
I first asked you if you would accept personal "testimony", by a Mormon or a Muslim, that they were in fact talking to their god, the deity they claim to believe in. I could use a similar example about alien abductions, hearing voices from the dead, or levitation. In another post you admitted that people can lie, be mistaken, or be delusional. If this is the case, are you saying that you would accept claims of the supernatural or miraculous, by Mormons or Muslims, on testimony alone (as you just indicated a few moments ago)?
Yes. As long as I get to keep my freedom.

I can meet a guy who tells me that he met an alien and I will believe him as long as this does not impact my freedom. If he says the alien told him to eat at my place and sleep in my bed or that the alien prodded him and that he must now kill me or he dies. I might not want to believe him anymore.
Yay more yes or no questions! :)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time