Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 10807 times)

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #464 on: May 15, 2014, 11:33:02 PM »
You are talking about the future. Do you know the future?

Excellent stonewall. Nobody saw that coming.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #465 on: May 16, 2014, 12:31:43 AM »
Reply 435, Lukvance.
Your "guess" is not a theory. Try again.
Theory, like Gravity? Evolution? Relativity?
Not anything remotely "theory" worthy about making guesses about details of something else that has yet to be proven to exist.
What is your point and how is it relevant for this conversation?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #466 on: May 16, 2014, 12:44:47 AM »
What is your point and how is it relevant for this conversation?

It's a pedantic point that the word "theory" should only be used when there is some repeatable evidence. Up until that point, you should use "guess" or "hypothesis", if you must. Since we are talking about pet resurrection, there can be no evidence until it happens.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #467 on: May 16, 2014, 12:48:29 AM »
What is your point and how is it relevant for this conversation?
It's a pedantic point that the word "theory" should only be used when there is some repeatable evidence. Up until that point, you should use "guess" or "hypothesis", if you must. Since we are talking about pet resurrection, there can be no evidence until it happens.
Oh ok. Sorry I am using bad English. Did it mislead you guys?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #468 on: May 16, 2014, 01:04:05 AM »
Oh ok. Sorry I am using bad English. Did it mislead you guys?

You didn't mislead us. It's a political word. Creationists use it to equate Evolution with statements about dead cats.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #469 on: May 16, 2014, 01:36:52 AM »
Luk, I just finished rereading both the "Meticulous care in the transmission of the Bible" and the "Historicity of Jesus" web pages you had linked to in your post #435 Defiance was referring to.

I'll let him clarify what he was addressing in his response to you, but in the meantime, I would like to revisit a question I had asked of you which the sites mentioned above failed to provide an answer for.

In that post, you had responded to this question of mine...
Quote
how can you know for certain that what is contained in the four Gospels is absolutely true while the rest of the Bible (according to your earlier statements) is comprised of stories (all of the OT and the NT being questionable)?
...with the two aforementioned links you had cited as sources to back up your claim that with the exception of the Gospels, the rest of the Bible (the OT in particular) was not to be taken as a literal or factual account of the events portrayed within (such as the Creation Week, eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Noah's global flood etc.).

Upon examining the contents of both sources, I have discovered that neither addresses nor provides any evidence to support this particular claim of yours. In fact, the "Meticulous" site clearly states:
Quote
The preceding pages contained only a tip of the iceberg of the evidences that support the Bible as the true Word of God,

Again, this site clearly speaks to the entire Bible... Not just the Gospels... as being the "one true word of God".

This leads us back to my original question: on what basis do you make the claim that the OT and most of the NT are works of fiction? Does the Catholic religion you belong to support or reject this claim?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #470 on: May 16, 2014, 01:44:03 AM »
I worry about the total lack of documentation between 30AD and 150AD. I guess zero is a form of "meticulous".
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #471 on: May 16, 2014, 02:00:25 AM »
Luk, I just finished rereading both the "Meticulous care in the transmission of the Bible" and the "Historicity of Jesus" web pages you had linked to in your post #435 Defiance was referring to.

I'll let him clarify what he was addressing in his response to you, but in the meantime, I would like to revisit a question I had asked of you which the sites mentioned above failed to provide an answer for.

In that post, you had responded to this question of mine...
Quote
how can you know for certain that what is contained in the four Gospels is absolutely true while the rest of the Bible (according to your earlier statements) is comprised of stories (all of the OT and the NT being questionable)?
...with the two aforementioned links you had cited as sources to back up your claim that with the exception of the Gospels, the rest of the Bible (the OT in particular) was not to be taken as a literal or factual account of the events portrayed within (such as the Creation Week, eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Noah's global flood etc.).

Upon examining the contents of both sources, I have discovered that neither addresses nor provides any evidence to support this particular claim of yours. In fact, the "Meticulous" site clearly states:
Quote
The preceding pages contained only a tip of the iceberg of the evidences that support the Bible as the true Word of God,

Again, this site clearly speaks to the entire Bible... Not just the Gospels... as being the "one true word of God".

This leads us back to my original question: on what basis do you make the claim that the OT and most of the NT are works of fiction? Does the Catholic religion you belong to support or reject this claim?

Oh! Don't misunderstand me, I believe that the Bible is the word of God. As Jesus himself showed with the parables God love using stories (without actual facts in them) to get the message across.
Catholic Religion claim mainly the following things in which I believe in:
1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.

There is not much about the stories in the Bible being true or not. So I read them and made my own conclusions.
The thing witch closed the deal for me with the old testament not being actual facts was this story of a bear :
" From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!”
He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria" 2 kings 2 : 23-26
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #472 on: May 16, 2014, 02:10:06 AM »
I worry about the total lack of documentation between 30AD and 150AD. I guess zero is a form of "meticulous".
I worry about the total lack of documentation between 30AD and 150AD. I guess zero is a form of "meticulous".
Zero...for now. When you think about it. Sophocles and Aristotle books have a 1400 year gap and you base your child education and your mental stability on those writings. Shouldn't you worry about that?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #473 on: May 16, 2014, 03:12:19 AM »
Zero...for now.

Nicely admitted. I should give you a point for that.

Quote
When you think about it. Sophocles and Aristotle books have a 1400 year gap and you base your child education and your mental stability on those writings. Shouldn't you worry about that?

- I should, but their writing was held in high esteem by the Arabs and Christian Church, to reinforce their doctrine.
- Their incorrectness is not as influential as the incorrectness that is written in the Bible. (Which caused people to keep listening to Aristotle, Plato)
- Their works do not cause people to fanatically believe that their sins are forgiven by a God who was crucified, and raised from the dead.
- Their errors could have been made by other incorrect people of that period. Their beliefs were cultural.
- Even if the works of Aristotle were invented 1400 years later, it would be a similar problem to wondering if Bacon wrote Shakespeare.
- If the story of Jesus was invented 50 years later, it would still be a horrendous lie.
- If the works of Aristotle were revealed to be a fake, it would get media attention for 3 days.
- If the works of the Bible were revealed to be a fake, it would cause substantially more fallout than 3 days of media attention.

So, no. Equating a less important fake with your endorsement of another fake, does not solve your problem.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #474 on: May 16, 2014, 03:17:58 AM »
- I should, but their writing was held in high esteem by the Arabs and Christian Church, to reinforce their doctrine.
- Their incorrectness is not as influential as the incorrectness that is written in the Bible. (Which caused people to keep listening to Aristotle, Plato)
The bible story was held in higher esteem.
Are you sure that it is not as influential? Basically what you are saying is that faith is more important that your mental stability? Because it is their works that classify you as clinically sane (or not).
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #475 on: May 16, 2014, 04:06:22 AM »
- I should, but their writing was held in high esteem by the Arabs and Christian Church, to reinforce their doctrine.
- Their incorrectness is not as influential as the incorrectness that is written in the Bible. (Which caused people to keep listening to Aristotle, Plato)
The bible story was held in higher esteem.
Are you sure that it is not as influential? Basically what you are saying is that faith is more important that your mental stability? Because it is their works that classify you as clinically sane (or not).

Esteem, HA!

No doctors are running to my door.

I can't be bothered to check if what you say about sanity is true, and it's not likely to be true in any real sense (or even important), but if it was true, it would be because the Greek faulty way of thinking was endorsed by the Church for too long, and is also still appealing to other faulty thinkers, who use its logic to base their own current ideas on, because they are too dumb to think of something else.  They are perfectly free to change their ideas, since Aristotle is NOT GOD, or even an plausible authority. His ideas only work if people still find them logical. The works of a faked God are believed to be incontrovertible. You seem to have missed this problem with your "logic".  The church does not allow people to disagree with the faked works of Jesus, or change them, if better ideas are found.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #476 on: May 16, 2014, 04:13:34 AM »
Another fallacy in your logic, is that the ideas written in the Greek texts could actually be true, even if faked, since the person that wrote them may have been smarter than Aristotle.

However, the converse for the Bible is problematic, because it doesn't matter how intelligent the writer of the New Testament was, he is not likely to have guessed what the agenda of God and Jesus was, without witnessing the story, and being a disciple of Jesus. Doesn't matter how smart he was, his story would be rubbish.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #477 on: May 16, 2014, 06:02:47 AM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.
Lukvance I will debate with you on the subject of spiritual vs religious if you like.  We could be the first theist here to debate their beliefs.  What do you say?  Want to save my soul?  Of course I think my soul is in no need of saving but according to your religion it does.  So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?
Could you clarify the question and your position? you can post it there
My position is: Your religion will destroy God
You are talking about the future. Do you know the future?

It's happening right now before my very eyes.   Are we taking this to the debate room?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #478 on: May 16, 2014, 06:05:32 AM »
Honestly, though, I don't see how anyone could have a serious debate over things that neither can prove to be real.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #479 on: May 16, 2014, 06:06:11 AM »
JB if he starts asking questions about definitions it will only regress, that is his only technique.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #480 on: May 16, 2014, 06:07:53 AM »
Def yes it is possible to be serious about ideas.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #481 on: May 16, 2014, 07:38:00 AM »
JB if he starts asking questions about definitions it will only regress, that is his only technique.

I will be impeccable with my word.  Thanks Defiance.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger s**t [from God]?
« Reply #482 on: May 16, 2014, 09:02:14 AM »
JB if he starts asking questions about definitions it will only regress, that is his only technique.

I will be impeccable with my word.  Thanks Defiance.

define "impeccable"   :police:
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #483 on: May 16, 2014, 09:10:56 AM »
There is not much about the stories in the Bible being true or not. So I read them and made my own conclusions.
The thing witch closed the deal for me with the old testament not being actual facts was this story of a bear :
" From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!”
He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria" 2 kings 2 : 23-26
And what, pray tell, is the message that god is trying to get across with this story, and in what was is this story a superior way of delivering that message than simply speaking in plain terms?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #484 on: May 16, 2014, 09:15:27 AM »
And what, pray tell, is the message that god is trying to get across with this story, and in what was is this story a superior way of delivering that message than simply speaking in plain terms?
He spoke in plain terms (the 10 commandments) and added stories because it was how people remember and teach things before printing. Through stories.
The message is really simple. Follow me, I love you.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #485 on: May 16, 2014, 09:18:53 AM »
Follow me i love you said the offender.
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #486 on: May 16, 2014, 10:03:20 AM »
And what, pray tell, is the message that god is trying to get across with this story, and in what was is this story a superior way of delivering that message than simply speaking in plain terms?
He spoke in plain terms (the 10 commandments) and added stories because it was how people remember and teach things before printing. Through stories.
The message is really simple. Follow me, I love you.

What does the commandment about graven images mean?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #487 on: May 16, 2014, 10:16:58 AM »
The message is really simple. Follow me, I love you.

What does the commandment about graven images mean?

"I love you, but if you decide to become an artist I'll have the entire village disown you.  With rocks."  :o
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #488 on: May 16, 2014, 10:18:03 AM »
What does the commandment about graven images mean?
Sorry, what?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #489 on: May 16, 2014, 10:26:13 AM »
I worry about the total lack of documentation between 30AD and 150AD. I guess zero is a form of "meticulous".
I worry about the total lack of documentation between 30AD and 150AD. I guess zero is a form of "meticulous".
Zero...for now. When you think about it. Sophocles and Aristotle books have a 1400 year gap and you base your child education and your mental stability on those writings. Shouldn't you worry about that?

This is yet another of your false analogies - attempting to compare supernatural claims with non-supernatural claims. And it is patently false that we base our child education on Aristotle. No-we-do-not. I didn't even hear of Aristotle until much later. But again, none of that matters because you are attempting a false analogy. It wouldn't matter who wrote the writings of Aristotle or Pythagoras, or whoever else. The principles are still the same and can be demonstrated easily and independently. This is NOT the case with your miracle claims which are found in your bible.

Please stop trying this line of argumentation. It fails every time, for anyone who attempts it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #490 on: May 16, 2014, 10:36:48 AM »
This is yet another of your false analogies - attempting to compare supernatural claims with non-supernatural claims. And it is patently false that we base our child education on Aristotle. No-we-do-not. I didn't even hear of Aristotle until much later. But again, none of that matters because you are attempting a false analogy. It wouldn't matter who wrote the writings of Aristotle or Pythagoras, or whoever else. The principles are still the same and can be demonstrated easily and independently. This is NOT the case with your miracle claims which are found in your bible.

Please stop trying this line of argumentation. It fails every time, for anyone who attempts it.
These principles are as easy to demonstrate than the 10 commandments?
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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #491 on: May 16, 2014, 10:48:06 AM »
This is yet another of your false analogies - attempting to compare supernatural claims with non-supernatural claims. And it is patently false that we base our child education on Aristotle. No-we-do-not. I didn't even hear of Aristotle until much later. But again, none of that matters because you are attempting a false analogy. It wouldn't matter who wrote the writings of Aristotle or Pythagoras, or whoever else. The principles are still the same and can be demonstrated easily and independently. This is NOT the case with your miracle claims which are found in your bible.

Please stop trying this line of argumentation. It fails every time, for anyone who attempts it.
These principles are as easy to demonstrate than the 10 commandments?

You are obfuscating again. Try to stay on topic. I know it's hard for you.

Again, you are presenting a false analogy. That is the point. You cannot rightly compare writings about math or logic (which are demonstrable and not extraordinary) to claims about "miracles" or the supernatural. Such things are not even close to being in the same category of assertion. Furthermore, the ten commandments are hogwash since we know there are justified times for lying, stealing, dishonoring ones family etc, and the first two are just absurd since no deity has been demonstrated by which to not make a "graven image" or "have no gods before".

Perhaps more importantly though, is that you are cherry-picking bible passages, which to accept and to reject. You are practicing a deep confirmation bias and it is hindering you from seeing how irrational your position is. If, for example, the passage in 2 Kings (about the "God bears" killing the children) warrants us to reject the Old Testament then you should be rejecting the ten commandments (because those are in the Old Testament!). Even further, we can apply this line of reasoning to the New Testament as well because (allegedly) Paul said for slaves to obey their masters (condoning slavery), Jesus (allegedly) said that no law (of the OT) will pass away until all things were fulfilled (meaning the OT is still in effect including stoning homosexuals and unruly children), Jesus stated that non-believers will be cast into the lake of fire forever (and lots of other cruel shit throughout the book of Matthew), and he says he came not to bring peace but a "sword" and division among families, and tons more.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html

By your own reasoning, you should reject the entire bible.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:03:00 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #492 on: May 16, 2014, 10:53:00 AM »
You are obfuscating again. Try to stay on topic. I know it's hard for you.
Okay....what is the topic? Isn't it about how God leaves clear messages?
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