Author Topic: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?  (Read 48961 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #435 on: May 13, 2014, 12:22:20 PM »
If I recall correctly, I had read somewhere about certain cultures (such as the Native Americans) believing that animals possessed "spirits" but not "souls" (which only humans allegedly possess). Either way, I would think that according to the Gospels Jesus was only concerned with saving mankind, wouldn't you agree?
We disagree. I wouldn't get past him that he was there to save everything that need saving. If (and that's a big If) animals were able to sin then Jesus died on the cross for them too.
I had a friend who once asked me "do I get to see my dog in heaven too?" We just finished talking about her recently dead parents. I said yes, then I looked at my sources (different priests and videos on the web). The answer is we don't know. So, today I pick yes, animals can go to heaven because they get a part of our soul, a part of our love (or hate) that they wouldn't get on their own. This theory basically says that I will find my dog in heaven but not my cat (I don't like cats) nor any wild animals.
Quote
In regards to your opinion that the Gospels are the only factual accounts of Jesus's words and deeds, my final query to you will be to repeat what other posters have previously asked of you: how can you know for certain that what is contained in the four Gospels is absolutely true while the rest of the Bible (according to your earlier statements) is comprised of stories (all of the OT and the NT being questionable)?
My certainty comes with all the sources[1] that confirmed this Idea. I have yet to read an event in the Gospel that doesn't make sense or doesn't resist the scrutiny of logic.

Quote
I wonder if you would consider a one-on-one debate with another Catholic or Christian such as Skeptic (basically someone who takes a more literal view of the Bible)?
Edit: magicmiles would also be a valid candidate for a debate.
Sure. One on One debate. I love that. We must find a subject thou (we might agree on a lot of things). I'll wait for their challenge in the debate Thread :)
 1. Historians and [wiki]Historicity of Jesus[/wiki] made me believe they where true history.
Plus there is the Meticulous Care in the Transmission of the Bible that confirmed this belief.
[/quote]
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #436 on: May 13, 2014, 12:29:35 PM »
You don't think it's missing something like the ability to choose?  Or the ability to say 'no' to god?
sorry the "don't" shouldn't be there. "I feel that it is missing something" My bad, English is not my first language and something like that don't get pick up by the autocorrect haha.
What's your native tongue if I may ask?

But OK, you think that it is missing something.  Perhaps you want to take back the claim that 'Adam' is 'whatever you (I) want'?  It's clearly not - it clearly means something rather specific that is independent of what I may or may not think.
What I meant was. We don't care as long as he represent humanity he can be whatever you want him to be.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #437 on: May 13, 2014, 12:32:27 PM »
We disagree. I wouldn't get past him that he was there to save everything that need saving. If (and that's a big If) animals were able to sin then Jesus died on the cross for them too.
I had a friend who once asked me "do I get to see my dog in heaven too?" We just finished talking about her recently dead parents. I said yes, then I looked at my sources (different priests and videos on the web). The answer is we don't know. So, today I pick yes, animals can go to heaven because they get a part of our soul, a part of our love (or hate) that they wouldn't get on their own. This theory basically says that I will find my dog in heaven but not my cat (I don't like cats) nor any wild animals.

The big problem with this is that you would have to first be able to prove that animals are cognizant of the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. Second, you would have to show that these animals are capable of disobeying the Word of God. And third, you would need to demonstrate that an animal has the capacity to know whatever it did in disobeying was wrong and to ask for forgiveness.

At the risk of sounding flippant, unless there is somewhere a fauna version of the Ten Commandments, I cannot see Rover being burdened with original sin for breaking "Thou shalt not bite the hand that feeds you".

edit

I'll need time to go through the links you provided before I can comment on the rest of your response.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 12:34:32 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #438 on: May 13, 2014, 12:46:10 PM »
The big problem with this is that you would have to first be able to prove that animals are cognizant of the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. Second, you would have to show that these animals are capable of disobeying the Word of God. And third, you would need to demonstrate that an animal has the capacity to know whatever it did in disobeying was wrong and to ask for forgiveness.

At the risk of sounding flippant, unless there is somewhere a fauna version of the Ten Commandments, I cannot see Rover being burdened with original sin for breaking "Thou shalt not bite the hand that feeds you".
Not if you think that it is a part of your soul that they have!
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #439 on: May 13, 2014, 12:55:46 PM »
Not if you think that it is a part of your soul that they have!

Yeahbuhwha...? :?

I am going to suspend disbelief as much as I am humanly capable of and pretend for the sake of conversation that these statements have any scientific evidence to back them up.

Are you saying that it's the "soul" part of us and not our brains that allows living organisms to comprehend God, sin and forgiveness? That parts of our "soul" can be transferred not only between humans, but cross-species also?

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #440 on: May 13, 2014, 12:57:58 PM »
To add to my question, what about animals that have no contact with human beings? How do you explain how they can know God and ask for forgiveness?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #441 on: May 13, 2014, 01:10:54 PM »
No no no. Haha. I guess it's a bit streched.
The official position is "we don't know"
I created my own position because I wanted to be able to say yes to that girl and still eat my steak without remorse.
So, part of my soul can detain on my pet white canvas if I love him enough. This allows him to have access to heaven, not by his will but by mine. My cat that I don't like won't have my soul (mouhahaha) "printed" on him.  Animals that have no contact with human beings don't have soul. Same goes for animals that have not been loved "enough".
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Online Dante

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #442 on: May 13, 2014, 01:23:19 PM »
No no no. Haha. I guess it's a bit streched.
The official position is "we don't know"
I created my own position because I wanted to be able to say yes to that girl and still eat my steak without remorse.
So, part of my soul can detain on my pet white canvas if I love him enough. This allows him to have access to heaven, not by his will but by mine. My cat that I don't like won't have my soul (mouhahaha) "printed" on him.  Animals that have no contact with human beings don't have soul. Same goes for animals that have not been loved "enough".

C'mon man, come clean with us. You're just making shit up as you go along, aren't you?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #443 on: May 13, 2014, 01:25:06 PM »
Adam is whatever you want him to be. He represent humanity on earth. If you think that a humanity start with the first living organism on earth then yes Adam is the first living organism on earth. If you think that humanity start with the first homo sapiens sapiens then Adam is the first homo sapiens sapiens. It changes nothing on the fact the Jesus loves you and that if you want to be happier, follow him :)
Evidence that Adam was the first living thing here.
Evidence, please.
Here : http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/adam.html :)
I told you he represent humanity on earth. What more evidence do you want?


I have postulated in the past that adam could be the first being to achieve a certain level of intelligence.  But to me it seems as if intelligence is on a slow moving growing scale I am not sure there is a point where one could actually say.  Yeah that guy is human.  Great apes can be taught to sign and express needs and desires.  it is not a natural behavior for them to create a language with quite that many words.    The line between animal intelligence and human intelligence as we evolved would probably have crossed several earlier species.

homo erectus may have wondered about the stars, and thought about his eventual mortality. 


PS.  I doubt any man today could name all the species of animals on the planet expecially considering all the extinctions.  you would need a super memory to do that all before you invented the written word and paper of some kind.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 01:27:05 PM by epidemic »

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #444 on: May 13, 2014, 01:36:59 PM »
No no no. Haha. I guess it's a bit streched.
The official position is "we don't know"
I created my own position because I wanted to be able to say yes to that girl and still eat my steak without remorse.
So, part of my soul can detain on my pet white canvas if I love him enough. This allows him to have access to heaven, not by his will but by mine. My cat that I don't like won't have my soul (mouhahaha) "printed" on him.  Animals that have no contact with human beings don't have soul. Same goes for animals that have not been loved "enough".

If you find yourself on the receiving end of scorn and ridicule for the beliefs you are attempting to defend, remember your words I have bolded above for the reason why. I know you know the importance we atheists place on statements backed-up by verifiable evidence, so when you start playing fast and loose with, quite frankly, beyond-bizarre comments with no basis in scientific fact, you end up with responses like this:

C'mon man, come clean with us. You're just making shit up as you go along, aren't you?

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you truly believe what you are saying, Luk, but I'm beginning to wonder....
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #445 on: May 13, 2014, 03:05:15 PM »
My official position is "we don't know"
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #446 on: May 13, 2014, 03:50:36 PM »
My official position is "we don't know"
Sounds familiar.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #447 on: May 13, 2014, 04:04:19 PM »
My official position is "we don't know"
Sounds familiar.

Actually, this is a lot more honest  than we usually get from a theist. Just like science, it's much more honest to admit that something is not known that to make it up to suit, which is what quite a lot of religion seems to do.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #448 on: May 13, 2014, 04:13:01 PM »
My official position is "we don't know"
Sounds familiar.

Actually, this is a lot more honest  than we usually get from a theist. Just like science, it's much more honest to admit that something is not known that to make it up to suit, which is what quite a lot of religion seems to do.
I agree completely. I was just saying that it seems familiar from what I said to him about the "before" of the Big Bang.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #449 on: May 14, 2014, 12:38:48 AM »
My official position is "we don't know"

You have to admit, though, that the notion of animals sinning and the transfer of "soul essence" between humans and pets is way out there by way of conjecture, Luk.

Anywho, thanks again for taking the time to discuss your faith with me. I hope I came across as being polite even if I may have strongly disagreed with your responses. Good chat. :)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #450 on: May 14, 2014, 12:45:50 AM »
You have to admit, though, that the notion of animals sinning and the transfer of "soul essence" between humans and pets is way out there by way of conjecture, Luk.

Anywho, thanks again for taking the time to discuss your faith with me. I hope I came across as being polite even if I may have strongly disagreed with your responses. Good chat. :)
Polite indeed (that was the word I was looking for). It changes the pace from the others. Really glad to have had this opportunity. Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.

Yes the pet thing is pushing the boundaries. It's a little bit like talking Eucharist with atheists :) Oh, btw, the pet didn't sin, I did.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #451 on: May 14, 2014, 01:04:18 AM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.

To be honest, I'm nowhere near as knowledgable on theistic matters as most members here to feel confident enough to engage in debates. I still need to study the links you provided to learn more about where you draw your particular belief system from. But thanks for the offer.

Off to bed.
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Offline median

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #452 on: May 14, 2014, 01:04:54 AM »
I have yet to read an event in the Gospel that doesn't make sense or doesn't resist the scrutiny of logic.

Have you gone through the alleged resurrection stories in each of the gospels and compared them? They are contradictory. How much textual criticism study have you actually done on this subject? If you had read the gospels without extreme confirmation bias you wouldn't be making these claims b/c the gospels clearly contain error and contradiction (both internally and with those of the OT, and other documents of old). Spinning or rationalizing away the clear contradictions doesn't make those contradictions any less irrational.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #453 on: May 14, 2014, 01:10:15 AM »
I have yet to read an event in the Gospel that doesn't make sense or doesn't resist the scrutiny of logic.

Have you gone through the alleged resurrection stories in each of the gospels and compared them? They are contradictory. How much textual criticism study have you actually done on this subject? If you had read the gospels without extreme confirmation bias you wouldn't be making these claims b/c the gospels clearly contain error and contradiction (both internally and with those of the OT, and other documents of old). Spinning or rationalizing away the clear contradictions doesn't make those contradictions any less irrational.

Mary and Joe taking a trip to Egypt for no reason
Herod killing all the first-born, because some psychics told him about a king
Jesus being off the rod of Jesse, but born of a virgin

That's in the first few paragraphs of the gosspool.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #454 on: May 14, 2014, 03:36:36 AM »
Animals with souls? I was gathering souls last night - even a dragon soul!

Whoops. I suppose Skyrim doesn't count in this discussion!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Nam

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #455 on: May 14, 2014, 03:49:49 PM »
Animals with souls? I was gathering souls last night - even a dragon soul!

Whoops. I suppose Skyrim doesn't count in this discussion!

You took the dragon's soul! I had dibs.

:'(

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #456 on: May 15, 2014, 09:53:03 AM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.

Lukvance I will debate with you on the subject of spiritual vs religious if you like.  We could be the first theist here to debate their beliefs.  What do you say?  Want to save my soul?  Of course I think my soul is in no need of saving but according to your religion it does.  So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #457 on: May 15, 2014, 11:20:38 AM »
So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?

accuracy.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #458 on: May 15, 2014, 02:06:37 PM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.
Lukvance I will debate with you on the subject of spiritual vs religious if you like.  We could be the first theist here to debate their beliefs.  What do you say?  Want to save my soul?  Of course I think my soul is in no need of saving but according to your religion it does.  So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?
Could you clarify the question and your position? you can post it there
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 02:15:27 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #459 on: May 15, 2014, 02:22:36 PM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.
Lukvance I will debate with you on the subject of spiritual vs religious if you like.  We could be the first theist here to debate their beliefs.  What do you say?  Want to save my soul?  Of course I think my soul is in no need of saving but according to your religion it does.  So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?
Could you clarify the question and your position? you can post it there

My position is: Your religion will destroy God
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #460 on: May 15, 2014, 03:04:51 PM »
JB, get ready for some classic Lukvance stonewalling, time-wasting and fancy dancing: "what do you mean by religion? what do you mean by god? what do you mean by destroy? what do you mean by your? what do you mean by will?"

After you take pains to define all your terms, he will not define his. And then he will change the subject. :P
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Nam

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #461 on: May 15, 2014, 03:26:20 PM »
And then he will change the subject. :P

If he even comprehends the subject in the first place.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #462 on: May 15, 2014, 05:34:21 PM »
Whenever you want, if you wish to start a debate, I'm available.
Lukvance I will debate with you on the subject of spiritual vs religious if you like.  We could be the first theist here to debate their beliefs.  What do you say?  Want to save my soul?  Of course I think my soul is in no need of saving but according to your religion it does.  So why should I give up my beautiful perception of God for the horrific biblical description?
Could you clarify the question and your position? you can post it there
My position is: Your religion will destroy God
You are talking about the future. Do you know the future?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Why all the cloak and dagger shit [from God]?
« Reply #463 on: May 15, 2014, 09:43:55 PM »
Reply 435, Lukvance.

Your "guess" is not a theory. Try again.

Theory, like Gravity? Evolution? Relativity?

Not anything remotely "theory" worthy about making guesses about details of something else that has yet to be proven to exist.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html